FF, more or less corrupt then FG???

padser

I guess its all relative but in fairness which one is actually more corrupt?????

Take it

the one that starts with F

Padser, could you give an opinion yourself first on that and flesh out a bit what you are thinking- thanks.

padser

Right well there seems to be no lack of corruption in politics. And FF def are the worst offenders. But my question is for all those FF haters, of whom im happy to call myself one of, would the other main party and realisstic alternitive be any less corrupt then FF are????? if they were given the oppertunity

swiss

would the other main party and realisstic alternitive be any less corrupt then FF are????? if they were given the oppertunity

They've been out of power for the last ten years. It is incredibly hard to speculate accurately on how different they would have been - if any - to the sitting government. Most people would consider that they would be better because in their view they can hardly be much worse. I would tentatively agree with this opinion.

Looking at the record of Fine Gael, it is clear that they have also some share of "chancers" and dodgy dealings. The activities of Michael O'Leary, the former Telecommunications minister certainly fell into that bracket. However, in a very real sense, he was the exception rather than the rule, and as soon as his shady dealings became known, he was expelled from the party. Some FG councillors were also implicated as having suspect dealings in the tribunals of enquiry, although these implications were not nearly as pervasive, as serious, or as widespread of those of FF.

Let us contrast this with FF, who still retain key personnel who are very reminiscent of the culture of sleaze and corruption that was the preserve of that party during the Haughey years, and only remove them when forced to do so by electoral outcry. As a prime example of this, I still find it amazing that a politician that wrote blank cheques for his party leader is our Taoiseach. For those that do not consider this a serious offence I would ask them to consider the opinion that it would have been practically impossible for Ahern not to have known about at least some of the questionable activities in which Haughey was mired. If he was not aware, writing such cheques betrayed incredible naivity.

Neither of these traits are particularly appropriate for an acting head of government - financial incompetence or complicity in corruption. If even the Taoiseach himself cannot escape unmired from his partys questionable dealings and yet retain office, I harbour little faith that the culture of sleaze and backhanders has dissipated entirely from the echelons of any political office as it is currently held.

As I say, it is difficult to say whether FG would be any better. Historically, I believe they have, and although nobody is perfect I don't how they could be any worse in the future.

coolhandluke

Having been truly sickened by the waste and corruption of the current incumbents,(see prime time tonight)i'd certainly give Enda Kenny a shot to prove me wrong,seems honest enough.

shoegirl

Having grown up in brown-paper-envelope-land in North country Dublin I have to say FF. However there are and have been a few dodgy FGers, but on a lesser scale.

The problem with FF seems to be the expectation that they will "do favours" for people. Naturally this breeds more corruption as favours are "returned." Invaribly this grows as people get to hear that so-and-so will "help you out." A corrupt electorate breeds a corrupt ruling class. Of course the problem that results is the conflict of interest, where politicans are pressurised by numerous different lobby groups.

As I said, much of our electorate demands and expects "favours" from their politicians. Therefore it is inevitable that those who gain power become corrupt. And those who are corrupt find it easier to gain power because of support from those who they have assisted, or believe they will assist them. Its a vicious circle that is difficult to get out of.

The crazy thing is that a lot of it is illusory. For example, in many small towns the local councillors will have influence over who gets housing. This means that individuals can lobby local politicans to push themselves or others up the housing list. The problem is of course that the person who today manages to be represented succesfully by a parish-pump politican will yesterday be the person who was pushed down the list by yesterdays favoured recipient. So its possible that the system that helped them today may have hindered them in the past. (Sounds complicated, but all I am saying is that in the parish-pump system somebody is ALWAYS potentially unfairly pushed back in favour of somebody else).

The only answer to corruption is to professionalise decision making but even then there are risks. Frank Dunlop is a classic example of a professional decision maker who sold his services to the highest bidder. The only way to avoid another Dunlop getting into the system is to a) do careful and continuous background checks on those with decision making powers c) end the practice of political appointees and c) move personnel regularly.

Sadly, I do think the corruption levels in FF are representative of those who support them - and I think people need to look at their own willingness to use the system for their own ends before criticising.

padser

shoegirl wrote:

I think people need to look at their own willingness to use the system for their own ends before criticising.

i think that is the absolute crux of the issue. General coruptness in politics drives me mad however ultimitely its the irresonsible apathy from the general public who coninue to vote FF that keeps putting these people back into power. If only we demanded genuine high (or indeed anything other then sheer incompetance and dishonesty) standards from our politicans the problem could be solved.

shltter

i think FF because they have been in power much more than FG

if you are corrupt and getting into politics to make a few bob for yourself there is not much point in joining FG because they spend so little time in power

also if you are corruptable there is more chance that someone will take advantage of it if you are in FF not much point in bribing a FG backbencher or frontbencher for that matter
if you are going to bribe someone it makes much more sense to target the government party which predominantly is FF

I dont think FG are less corrupt they just have less oppurtunity to be corrupt

Time Magazine

Of course Fianna Fáíl. It's blatant.

Obviously FG have had less chance to be corrupt but even still, their record is clean. You can't say that a party that don't have a record of being corrupt would be had they been given the chance.

colster

Well at least neither is as corrupt as Sinn Fein!!

uberwolf

colster wrote:

Well at least neither is as corrupt as Sinn Fein!!

or the Zanu-PF party, but there you go. That wasn't the topic.

shltter

Angry Banana wrote:

Of course Fianna Fáíl. It's blatant.

Obviously FG have had less chance to be corrupt but even still, their record is clean. You can't say that a party that don't have a record of being corrupt would be had they been given the chance.

micheal lowry must have been a figment of my imagination then

MDR

I gotta say straight up, I am an FG member.

We could pay €4500 to join the FF golden club in order to secure priority access to a minister, in order to ask them this question directily,but then I don't have €4500 I don't need, then again I don't have any planning issues to sort out. We could submit a freedom of information query but that has been curtailed too ....

It goes without saying there have been corrupt FG'ers too, you only need to look as far as Michael Lowry, or the "increasing his profile" contribution from Dennis O'Brien before the allocation of the Esat mobile phone licence. I will say that when Tony O'Reilly offered John Bruton a deal in order to secure the indo's support duing the '97 election , Bruton said no way, then again we have only Brutons word for that, its a mixed bag for FG, but I believe corruption and incomptence permeates FF like no other party.

I come from a FF background, I know personally a few FF city councillors, I choose FG to get away from the parochial corruption, the nod and wink and I will sort you out kind of stuff. When I told my dad, he said "you always do things arseways, why didn't you join FF and I could have gotten you ahead". This was reason I didn't join FF, I wanted things off my own merit, rather than on the basis of who I knew, within a framework I knew was more trustworthy, with a party the reflected the opinions I held.

In his book reflections on the Irish State Garrett Fitzgerald complained bitterly about the Irish People's failure to punish td's for their corruption. He wasn't even advocating a vote for FG, because he believed FF was corrupt, he was just appailed at seeing Liam Lawyer, Cooper Flynn etc topping the polls. If FF is corrupt its because Irish People don't care, the do hold us FG, to a higher standard though ...

As for SF, theirs is a corruption of a different sort, condoning acts of voliencing with pacifing words like, "its up to all parties to work towards a situation where the IRA feels it can disarm" ...

colster

uberwolf wrote:

or the Zanu-PF party, but there you go. That wasn't the topic.

It's not off topic when one response stated that Fianna Fail were the most corrupt party in the country. IMO that's not true.

Brown Envelopes and dodgy dealings are a lot milder than having a private army and some members involved in bank robbery, extortion, spying etc.

On another note I don't think you can isolate FF or FG as corrupt. We get the politicians we deserve. In other words Politicians/Parties are only as corrupt as we allow them to be.

sceptre

colster wrote:

It's not off topic when one response stated that Fianna Fail were the most corrupt party in the country. IMO that's not true.

All right, message received, party over. The topic isn't about Sinn Fein and it isn't going to be.

colster

sceptre wrote:

All right, message received, party over. The topic isn't about Sinn Fein and it isn't going to be.

Point taken.

I still believe that we get the politicians we deserve. Politicians/Parties are only as corrupt as we allow them to be.

Time Magazine

shltter wrote:

micheal lowry must have been a figment of my imagination then

He was expelled 12 seconds later...

shltter

Angry Banana wrote:

He was expelled 12 seconds later...

Who john brutons good friend.

Who he at the very least toyed with the idea of letting him back in.

The simple fact is to be corrupt you really need to be in a position where you can influence decisions and events FG have been in government I would guess probably less than 4 of the last 20 years.
if you are going to be corrupted then there is more chance of it happening in the party that is in power

FG dont have a blameless existence for example at local government level where they had power over planning etc.

It is something like a child molestor they go to get a job that puts them in contact with children not because they want to be a priest or teacher or football coach but because it allows them to do what they want.

Corrupt people join FF because it gives them the oppurtunity to be corrupt
if FG was the predominant party of power that is were they would be etc etc

Victor

colster wrote:

Brown Envelopes and dodgy dealings are a lot milder than having a private army and some members involved in bank robbery, extortion, spying etc.

FF have done their own little bits of the bank robbery, extortion, spying etc.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

FF have done their own little bits of the bank robbery, extortion, spying etc.

bugging phones and wasn't there a white van or something parked outside albert reynolds house when he was trying to overthrow haughey.

MDR

Who john brutons good friend.

Who he at the very least toyed with the idea of letting him back in.

Any evidence that "John Bruton" considered this at all, or are you just guessing he was just wringing his hands for the opportunity ...

FG dont have a blameless existence for example at local government level where they had power over planning etc.

Thats a very convient "etc", implying corruption without having to qualify it, I wouldn't presume to much, zoning areas in the developement plan of course is open to corruption, as is the exceptions later on, but in general local government is pretty toothless, opportunities for gain there are few and far between.

It is something like a child molestor they go to get a job that puts them in contact with children not because they want to be a priest or teacher or football coach but because it allows them to do what they want.

A very inflamatory analogy there, one far too lightily made, are you presuming that all public representatives are inherently corrupt ?, is this a broad condemnation of the full spectrum of Irish political life or are there exceptions ? what are they ?

You see I find it hard to associate the cynicism people have for Irish politics in general with the party of which I am member. There is internal backbiting, politicing, ego and the rest of it, but I don't get the whole I am in this to rob the country blind vibe ...

colster

Victor wrote:

FF have done their own little bits of the bank robbery, extortion, spying etc.

Extortion and Bank Roberry!!! When??

shltter

MDR wrote:

Any evidence that "John Bruton" considered this at all, or are you just guessing he was just wringing his hands for the opportunity ...

well when sacking him he referred to him as his best friend and in at least one television interview that I saw he refused to rule out bring in back it was Micheal Noonan who ruled out bringing him back.



Thats a very convient "etc", implying corruption without having to qualify it, I wouldn't presume to much, zoning areas in the developement plan of course is open to corruption, as is the exceptions later on, but in general local government is pretty toothless, opportunities for gain there are few and far between.

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3591

Sean Ryans statement on the planning corruption read it it says and the majority of Fine Gael councillors

The Fine Gael inquiry into payments made to Fine Gael councillors was a joke and a whitewash. The speed with which Fina Gael cleared it councillors could not have been equalled by a priest in the confessional on a busy Saturday night giving absolution to errant parishioners. It seems to have been a case of "Bless me, Father, I have not been influenced" and "Right, my child, away you go". It was a joke and encouraged Fianna Fáil to conduct their inquiry along the same lines. I sat on Dublin County Council from 1991 to 1993. I saw what went on. The Fine Gael report utterly fails to get to grips with the reality of what went on at that time. It ignores the sleazy, seamy relationships between landowners and developers and councillors from the rezoning alliance of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and occasionally, the Progressive Democrats, as they mingled at their dinners, golf classics and political fundraisers.

http://www.gov.ie/debates-00/17may/sect8.htm


John Bruton had to call a meeting of FG dublin city councillors in 1993 to tell them that they were a laughing stock and the rezonings had to stop

MDR wrote:

A very inflamatory analogy there, one far too lightily made, are you presuming that all public representatives are inherently corrupt ?, is this a broad condemnation of the full spectrum of Irish political life or are there exceptions ? what are they ?

no I am presuming that the people who become corrupt politicians dont really have an interest in politics for the improving of peoples lives the same way a paedophile who becomes a priest would not have done it because he believed in the catholic church

that does not mean i think all politicians are corrupt or all priests are paedophiles

the point is that FF have more corrupt politicians because they are more likely to attract people who want to line their own pockets because they provide more of an oppurtunity to do so and because people who may not have become politicians to line their own pockets are more likely to be put in temptations way in FF than in FG

If FG had been the natural party of Government the way FF has been for the last 40 years then I believe that FG would have the exact same problems now that FF has

MDR wrote:

You see I find it hard to associate the cynicism people have for Irish politics in general with the party of which I am member. There is internal backbiting, politicing, ego and the rest of it, but I don't get the whole I am in this to rob the country blind vibe ...

I dont have a cynicism for Irish politics and politicians I believe that most politicians are decent honourable people no better or worse than most people in society.
some a very small minority are just out to line their pockets they do it in FF because it provides more of an opputunity than any other party.
Others are put in temptations way some give in to it most dont it is the same in society in general.
I dont think either party or for that matter any other party would be any different I would not trust any political party more than another.

I think the only solution is regulation and vigilance and a free and independent media.

Capt'n Midnight

shoegirl wrote:

For example, in many small towns the local councillors will have influence over who gets housing.

The old way of doing this was very simple. The local TD got the postman to let him know if there were any government letter , you know with the harp, in the bag, and to hold on to them for a few days. meanwhile the TD visits the recipient who will probably ask the TD to look into some matter. TD makes no promises but will do what he can, and lo and behold doesn't the letter arrive a few days later :rolleyes:

TD's in Jail
Dipping into a collegues medical fund.
Mature Recollection
Good car, good driver, good day etc.
Yer man found in the atorney generals house.
The minister for justice's brother getting off because the key witness was held by the police for questioning.
Explaining the wrong £30,000 (you couldn't make that up)
Passports for sale
Drink driving incidents

overall members of that party show a general disregard for the citizens of this country.