Male / Male Sexual Abuse & The Gay Community

FranknFurter

To be honest,

Im not sure why exactly I'm starting this thread, perhaps it was because I read this......................

NoTSoB wrote:

In the past, such posts have been deleted on this forum. By pretending that these people dont' exits in our community, we are damning ourselves in the future. FranknFurter's post has allot of resonance to it, and for that post alone I'm glad the guest post was allowed.

........and it hit home in some ways.

As a male survivor of abuse, its an area I have spent a lot of time trying to comphrehend. Its consequences, long and short term, its context, and every other element you can think of.

I will say though, kinda in relation to the debate in the other thread, had it not been for the internet and forums such as these, who knows what would have happened to me personally.... let me explain....

At one of my lowest points, I went online, hoping, praying for some kind of "answers".... I found nothing.... nothing for MALE survivors, and definitely nothing for GAY MALE survivors.

Then I met one of my oldest online friends, a guy called Noah.
Noah ( www.noahgrey.com ),set up a site called the M.A.S.S.F. (Male Abuse Survivors Support Forum), and Im not being over dramatic when I say that this place actually did save a lot of lives, which amazed me. Because I didnt think that would ever be possible just via a web forum / chat site, until, it saved my own.
That site, and those who used it, made me realise I was not the only gay guy that was abused, and learnt to accecpt that the fact that I was gay, and also a survivor, were two very seperate things.

Until it finished, I moderated one of the forums there, over a period of a few years, and I will tell you somthing, the amount of abused males from Ireland and England who registered as members, was absolutely astounding.

These days, the issue of male survivors is still rarely discussed in society in general, but I think this is somthing, that we in the Gay community, for some reason, almost never seem to discuss.

I often wonder why this is,.....is it because somone might think "Ah thats why hes gay"...... Iv never been able to identify the link there, but are we afraid thats what people will think?

Is it that simple?

Could this whole issue of it not being discussed be down to somthing as simple as us being afraid of potential misconceptions of our sexual identity?

We (as a community), should, imho, know better tho' shouldnt we?

We have been and are still trying to make the masses understand us, or accecpt us, or whatever...... but why do we not seem to like to acknowledge a group within our own community who are also doing that, along with trying to find accecptance within our community?

I see it, Iv seen it most of my life, abused males are often a group who are seen as a "very small" community, where in reality, we are not.
For every reported case, there are probably at least 20 that go unreported due mainly to social stigmas. And dont forget, here Im not just referring to childhood abuse, Im talking about Male / Male rape and male / male sexual assualt too.
All of these things are vastly underdiscussed imho.

Im not sure if its just me, maybe, because I am a wheelchair user, and of course people in wheelchairs are not supposed to have a sex life ( ) and I'm identifying with the common misconception among peoples views of survivors is that they also lose their sex-life, or interest in sex, that I see the issue from two *sort of* related viewpoints?

I dunno, I'm probably not being clear, probably not getting my point accross properly, but basically it boils down to, I feel that we, the gay community, do very little to recognise a part of our own community which vitally needs to be recognised.

I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on that, is it somthing only survivors notice or is it as obvious as my own experiences make it to me?
(Or am I just rambling and making no sense? )

B

Hmm_Messiah

FranknFurter wrote:

At one of my lowest points, I went online, hoping, praying for some kind of "answers".... I found nothing.... nothing for MALE survivors, and definitely nothing for GAY MALE survivors.

That site, and those who used it, made me realise I was not the only gay guy that was abused, and learnt to accecpt that the fact that I was gay, and also a survivor, were two very seperate things.

These days, the issue of male survivors is still rarely discussed in society in general, but I think this is somthing, that we in the Gay community, for some reason, almost never seem to discuss.

I often wonder why this is,.....is it because somone might think "Ah thats why hes gay"...... Iv never been able to identify the link there, but are we afraid thats what people will think?

Could this whole issue of it not being discussed be down to somthing as simple as us being afraid of potential misconceptions of our sexual identity?
but why do we not seem to like to acknowledge a group within our own community who are also doing that, along with trying to find accecptance within our community?B

Is it just me or are the Posts here moving away, well expanding from "gay news" to more poster's own experiences ? I am not here long enough to know. Just in recent weeks we've had some remarkable posts, including from FranknFurter.

And I am pleased he thought more on what came up, and has asked these questions. I think honestly though the people best able to answer most of his questions are people with similar experiences or people working in the field.

If I proceed to mention any one connected to me, for their privacy please realise, i am telling the truth but blurring many details.

I have had rships/fships with five people I know were abused. Three women, two men. Their reactions were very similar, and not differientiated by their sexuality. I recognise a lot that was in the OP , so I am guessing a good amount of it is related to the abuse rather than being gay and abused.

Outside of that I do agree it's very disappointing that there does not seem any very visible support mechanisms within the "community" (but then I think the term "community" is a misnomer big time)

I wonder how many people who seek out gay resources are also seeking out some way/place to work out how to deal with their experiences of abuse. I am sure some one will say " such & such" exists; and I accept that. I have no interest in promoting disputes here. But equally I know when people close to me where in hurting that I found it difficult to find resources to help. Any one who knew me well will know the extremes I go to to help my friends so if I was unsuccessful I then worry about those with less "tools".

I also know there is a problem with putting it in people's faces, as if suggesting its commonplace and a part of being gay (to expect abuse). But surely there are ways of balancing this.

From my limited experience I would imagine there are differences in how a MALE "survivor" and a FEMALE one are affected; but more to do with gender than sexuality (and am aware gay women are also abused. Maybe some of FranknFurters concerns would be well addressed in the first place by identifying differences /common factors in the experiences of gay men AND women).

Sexual abuse does just that among other things: it bruises and damages a persons sense of "sex"uality, and makes what should be a joyous human experience a truama (for many). When you add to that the pain and confusion many people feel when realising their sexuality it's easy to see how for a gay person the hurt and damage is intensified. How a person's mind can even distinguish what aspects it's dealing with is beyond me.

Of the people I mentioned, three were open about their experiences, but were ADAMANT they are not now affected by it. One seemed to use the experiences as an excuse for every misbehaviour/upset/drama. I honestly feel the "drama" girl was being the most honest. Each of the others manifested other problems and could not relate the back to their abuse.

Now I am not presuming qualification to make diagnosis, but for one or two they became aware of same through therapy.

This may seem a broad sweeping statement, and again i don't want to go off on tangents from FranknFurters main points, but it HAS been my experience that practically every person i know who has had an addiction, eating disorder etc, anything damaging to their body; have had experiences of abuse, even though some don't call what happened "anything".

When you consider that only 2% of men who commit male rape are gay, or the sad reality than many gay men's first sexual experience is an abusive one, then you realise just how complicated all these things are, and how urgent and real is the need to respond to the OP. He seems to have worked through is experience and come out the other side. This enables him to write his story. How many more are "lost" and can there be a better response to their needs?

There is a microcosm here (within boards as a whole) where it would be interesting to know how many would state they were abused ,how many would state they have got help with same, any significance in the gay/str8 breakdown etc but I don't know how appropriate people would see a poll; being interesting wouldn't be a good reason; been useful/help might.

And finally I think people's misconception of "appropriateness" in some way contributes to the lack of visibility in dealing with abuse.
I'd like to thankFranknFurter for putting his thoughts and experiences out there.

qwertyphobia

There are some good Irish support services out there both online and in the real world one is MASC in Galway http://www.masc.ie/

They had a conference last year where they invited over Mike Lew author of "Victims no Longer"


In Dublin there is also one in four www.oneinfour.org which have online fourms

segadreamcast

"Is it just me or are the Posts here moving away, well expanding from "gay news" to more poster's own experiences ? I am not here long enough to know. Just in recent weeks we've had some remarkable posts, including from FranknFurter."

Just on this note (I have nothing to add in terms of the abuse, FranknFurter seems to have said it all), I think this is a healthy move for the forum in general. It is, in my opinion at least, good to diversify into such areas in a forum - to discuss gay life in general and the experiences (such as this) which some must endure.

Indeed, there is more to being a homosexual than reading up on gay health news and watching people coming out and, consequently, I think that this forum, as it becomes more diverse, will reflect that.

the_syco

FranknFurter wrote:

At one of my lowest points, I went online, hoping, praying for some kind of "answers".... I found nothing.... nothing for MALE survivors

Try finding one for straight males. Look at how many there are. I think the reason why there are so few, if any, is not lack of demand, but due to our "macho" society. True, that has gone down in recent years, but once upon a time (I'd say about 15 years ago), if a man went into the Gardai station, to say that his wife bet him, he'd be laughed at.

Its not just gays, its men in general who have little support in the aftermath of abuse.

Boston

It's like this, all of us know people that have been abused. Friends and loved ones, talking about it is kinda like putting salt in a wound that will never fully heal. it hurts but it but it's actually good for it. But thats why people is general don't talk about abuse.

The gay communtity: Theres so much crap about gay == abuser, in the mind sets of people, especially the older generation of irish. i know it's what my mother said to me when i came out. We really just have a nee jerk reaction to it and distance ourselves completely from it. I think there certainly is a link between being abused and sexuality. For every person there first sexual experience, or first relationship, even with aabuser, will effect all other relationship after that in some way, keeping in mind that sexuality is about allot more then just who you fuk. It's also about how you feel and what you expect from a relationship.

As for the trend of this forum. Is kinda cycles through phases, but it is never purely news/politics/social/ or life issues.

Annasopra

I think there certainly is a link between being abused and sexuality. For every person there first sexual experience, or first relationship, even with aabuser, will effect all other relationship after that in some way, keeping in mind that sexuality is about allot more then just who you fuk. It's also about how you feel and what you expect from a relationship.

Notsob. Are you stating that abused males are more likely to be gay because of the abuse?

the_syco

Johnnymcg wrote:

Notsob. Are you stating that abused males are more likely to be gay because of the abuse?

Alot of people who were abused in the Ind. Schools questioned their own sexuality, often cos their heads were f*cked up due to the abuse. Its sad, but it has happened.

BuffyBot

Are you stating that abused males are more likely to be gay because of the abuse?

Hmm..well I certainly think there is a case to be made that most people who have been abused, the abuse will have a subsequent effect on their sexual identity. Now nessecarily a huge one turning someone from heterosexual to homosexual, but abuse certainly has had some effect of the sexual "compass" of most abuse victims I've known.

azezil

BuffyBot wrote:

Hmm..well I certainly think there is a case to be made that most people who have been abused, the abuse will have a subsequent effect on their sexual identity. Now nessecarily a huge one turning someone from heterosexual to homosexual, but abuse certainly has had some effect of the sexual "compass" of most abuse victims I've known.

definitely, speaking for myself at least and my unfortunate experience, the reason I go for younger and shorter tbh... long story heh, perhaps another time

Annasopra

I would have thought personally that they were totally separate issues - not linked at all. I mean Franknfurter has expressed "annoyance" that people think because a man/child was abused sexually by another man that that is why they are gay.

BuffyBot

I would have thought personally that they were totally separate issues

I don't think they are wholly seperate, but on the other hand I agree that to assume being gay automatically follows from childhoold abuse is also wrong. There is a huge area between the "no effect" and "profound effect" ends of the spectrum which is populated by individuals, each their own shade of grey.

Boston

Buffybot nailed it on the head. No I'm not stating that abused males are more likely to be gay because of the abuse. I'm saying that it definitely effects there impression of what sex, sexuality and relationships mean. This is not something exclusive to people who have been abused. Often our experience of sex as a child(from parents,friends,church and tv) have a major influence on how we view it as adults. For people that have had an actual sexual encounter as a child the influence is allot more pronounced

kittenkiller

I'm just after reading this, it reminded me of this thread.
It does not represent my own beliefs & thoughts, but i thought others might like to read it.

http://jasonsmith.freehomepage.com/rootcause.htm

Hmm_Messiah

I read the piece (mostly). sounds like gay reversal/aversion therapy.
Dunno how many people would accept attraction to Same Sex as a disorder, even in heterosexual context.
As a pointer to how abuse can have consequences at every level, and over a "lifetime" I guess it has some value. Sadly though in this case (in a LGB context) the chap sees his healing as in some way a healing from the surge of being gay.

I still think FranknFurter has indentified something that needs to be tackled; I don't know how to do that though other than in my own interaction with victims of abuse.

FranknFurter

To me, this is all very interesting,....

Yes, I do know there are very few options out there for any abused male, whether straight or gay, what Im wondering is, why so many of them fail to consult, liase or seek advice when it comes to the *additional* issues of gay abused males.

Indeed, in my experiences, when delved into, a lot of these bodies would just give you the name of a "gay friendly" counsellor etc.....

Iv worked most of my adult life in the "community development" field, and from what I see, travellers support services liase with existing groups of travellers, disability support groups liase with existing groups of people with disabilities, both via a *formal structure* where is the group relating to gay male survivors for orgs like MASC (which are only Galway based for the moment), to liase with? They simply dont exist, specially in cities like Dublin or Cork, what I wonder is why?

The gay "community" (Im not keen on the term but it works), as a whole are seen as very open and all-encompassing on many issues, but why not this one?

It seems to me to be a very similiar situation (for comparison),when it comes to homosexuality and disability, a while back, a gay & disabled group was formed, but basically got nowhere, dunno if they are still in existance in a formal sense, but to my mind, one of the main reasons it got nowhere was there was no inclusion options from the "usual" gay community, surely a minority group in our community should be of interest to us all and not just those trying to set it up?

As a minority group in ourselves, should we not understand this whole concept, the concept of Inclusion better?

Am I wrong, or just paranoid? lol

qwertyphobia

I wouldn't say your wrong as such but I don't think it's such a no-go topic in LGBT organisations that you seam to belive.

Yes we could do with more work being done in the community specificly on this topic, espicialy to challenge some of the shockingly bad attuides some gay men on the scene have about sexual assult/abuse. But there is some work happening. Gay Men's Health Project conference this year has a session on it and has asked questions about sexual assault in one of it's 2003 internet study.

I would view both MASC and One in four as very gay friendly organisations. The rape crisis centre around the country can be very hit and miss with some of them not seeing male clients but some of them are ok.



I will probably post some other points later but just wanted to respond to that point now

Talliesin

qwertyphobia wrote:

The rape crisis centre around the country can be very hit and miss with some of them not seeing male clients but some of them are ok.

I'm surprised to hear that. The one in Dublin is excellent.

qwertyphobia

yeah it's odd but the rape crisis centre are not unform through out the country while there is a lose network that most of them are involved in it does not set out policy/procedures for the different centres. So some have moved on from the days when they where set up and expanded there service others have not done so

Hmm_Messiah

There was a major dispute with founders of the Centre in Kilkenny and it split in two. I'm not sure if both remain in operation but not really inticing people to come forward is it?

On a positive note i know a person who was "affected" by others abuse rather than abused themselves, and they got significant support from the Rape Crisis centre.

I am sure there are very positive stories, pity if you have to "shop around" for help though