Why do NI nationalist/catholic voters support SF?

capistrano

I'm hoping that someone from NI/The North can explain this to me.

Despite all the McCartney killing, the Northern Bank robbery the recurring violent community justice, it appears that the nationalist voters of NI are going to give the SDLP a good kicking in the forthcoming UK general election. Indeed it appears to be accepted that Seamus Mallon's Newry and Armagh seat will go to Conor Murphy and Mark Durkan has a major fight on his hands to retain John Hume's Foyle seat. In fact, it's entirely possible that after the election the SDLP will be left with only Eddie McGrady's South Down seat, while SF could have 5 seats - every seat west of the Bann bar Gregory Campbell in East (London)Derry.

Do nationalist NI voters simply not respect normal non-violent democratic norms?

Or is there something wrong with the SDLP?

flogen

SF have many policies that appeal to Nationalists more than the SDLP does, one being the image SF give of being harder than the SDLP and less willing to cave to unionist demands. SF are also pushing the idea of unification more than the SDLP even though they both want it. Also, while it's more likely for people in Northern Ireland to vote on the afore mentioned grounds, the nitty-gritty of politics also still stands, taxes, education, health and so on.
It does also come down to party loyalty of the years and the fact that many nationalists in the North don't believe that SF have any real links with criminality, I guess it all depends on how many people are willing to take Gerry Adams word on the murder of Robert McCartney and the Northern Bank job, and how many people will see his recent statement to the IRA as something genuine rather than an election stunt

homerhop

For the same reason as a lot of people vote for FF south of the border, despite all the tribunals and backhanded dealings and millions they have cost the taxpayers.

capistrano

Hmm. I just find it terribly confusing. The mass of prospective SF voters either don't believe the in the criminality/violence or just don't care, which is much scarier. How can there ever be real peace when most of the nationalist representatives have such uncertain peaceful convictions?

Whatever SF's policies are, I could not bring myself to vote for them (or any political party) until I was absolutely certain that they were fully comitted to democratic peaceful means (and opposed to anyone who isn't - i.e. IRA, if they're separate).

You know, we make law to protect people from assault but it seems that SF voters accept assault as a means of dispencing justice. Scary.

homerhop

I think since Hume and Mallon resigned the SDLP have no one really there with the strength of character that is needed to lead a party in NI

flogen

I'm with you on the issue of not being able to vote for SF, but some people see it as a necissary evil, their connection to the IRA. Some see SF as the only people able to get the job done and the only people able to truely put an end to the troubles (as Vincent Browne said, an agreement between SF and the DUP could not be shouted down by extremists, because they ARE the extremists).
Like it or hate it SF need to be a part of the talks as long as they hold 1 seat in Northern Ireland.

capistrano

homerhop wrote:

For the same reason as a lot of people vote for FF south of the border, despite all the tribunals and backhanded dealings and millions they have cost the taxpayers.

The only difference I can see is that FF's vote has fallen over the past couple of decades, whereas SF's vote is increasing.

As an sidebar to this thread, I see the real reason for FF's consistent popularity is that the only possible alternative is a mish-mash coalition of left, right and middle. The shadow of the civil war still hangs heavily over Irish politics. If the conservative elements of FF and FG merged then we might have a clearer choice for goverment. I mean, what kind of choice do we now have? FG/Labour/Green/Others: what policies will that governemtn have? You just can't know at the time of voting. At least people know what to expect from FF/PD.

capistrano

homerhop wrote:

I think since Hume and Mallon resigned the SDLP have no one really there with the strength of character that is needed to lead a party in NI

I agree with you there, but, frankly, I'd vote for Caligula's horse rather than SF becasue of all their violent associations.

capistrano

flogen wrote:

as Vincent Browne said, an agreement between SF and the DUP could not be shouted down by extremists, because they ARE the extremists

I see the logic of this, but I find it hard to belive that the nationalist electorate of NI are voting on this basis, it's a bit too sophisticated for the mass market; but maybe I'm wrong.

homerhop

Time will change that i think. It is getting to the stage where it is not acceptable to have a backround that SF has, but then it is only in the last few years that the Brits have stopped using the extreem tactics that they used. Until that generation has gone I think there will alwasy be supporters of violence from "both" sides of the equation

capistrano

homerhop wrote:

Time will change that i think. It is getting to the stage where it is not acceptable to have a backround that SF has

It should be getting to that stage, but obvioudly it's not there yet, becasue the SF share of the vote is increasing vis a vis SDLP.

Also, what did the Brits really do that justified all the violence? They might have made a few mistakes here and there but in general they were just trying to deal with the situation they were presented with. Remember, NI was completely self-governing until 1972, so most of the problems were internal to NI.

flogen

capistrano wrote:

I see the logic of this, but I find it hard to belive that the nationalist electorate of NI are voting on this basis, it's a bit too sophisticated for the mass market; but maybe I'm wrong.

No, I dont think it's the basis of SF's support, but it's a fair point to make. As has been pointed out, many nationalists see themselves as the tortured minority, and they see SF as the only party that understands that and that wont let that happen under their watch. Many dont trust the SDLP to deliver that, and many reject the criminal image of SF as propaganda. Even if it could be proven that the British authorities were completely rid of abuse many nationalists would have a hard time believing it

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

Remember, NI was completely self-governing until 1972, so most of the problems were internal to NI.

Yep, Britian created that undemocratic state and left it to fester in its own pus for decades. It then came too hot to handle when the nationalists would not accept anymore festering in the pus.

ziggy

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Lemming

ziggy67 wrote:

Bloody Sunday, B Specials etc.

Y'know ... those were in response to IRA activity, not the other way around. Granted, Bloody Sunday went horribly, horribly FUBAR and then got white-washed, but the point is the original operational plans were enacted to combat the rise in republican violence.

Which then got met with violence. Which then spawned more violence, and so on so forth in a never ending circle of tit-for-tat.

Tell me. Someone carries out a horrible crime on your family. Do you go out and commit an even more terrible crime on theirs? Do two wrongs make a right? What have any of the paramilitary parties in N.Ireland done in the last 35 years that has actually made a blind bit of difference to improving the lot of the people they "claim" to represent?

capistrano

ziggy67 wrote:

Bloody Sunday, B Specials etc.

I would say that the B Specials were part of the local NI Administration, not the British. Bloody Sunday was the British Army alright, it was a mess, hopefully the Saville inquiry will find out what really happenned. When did the paramilitaries ever organize an open inquiry into one of their atrocities?

ziggy

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Mighty_Mouse

IMO SDLP have an image of upper-class catholics who have a history of bending over to British demands. Not unjustified IMO

SF dont and dont

Johnny_the_fox

one of the biggest group of voters for SF in the Northern is students.. (or young nationalists)

the policy that appeals to them is the most is the abolish of student fees* - SF is the only party to support this. And top-up fees around the corner.. the probably push that policy again.


*the funny thing is SF - claims to support this but has never done anything about it.. :rolleyes:

Johnny_the_fox

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

IMO SDLP have an image of upper-class catholics who have a history of bending over to British demands. Not unjustified IMO

SF dont and dont

SDLP have an image of older generation.. not upper-class.

Johnny_the_fox

Lemming wrote:

What have any of the paramilitary parties in N.Ireland done in the last 35 years that has actually made a blind bit of difference to improving the lot of the people they "claim" to represent?

Martin McGuinness - as education minister, ended the 11+ in the North. It will make a huge difference the north... providing equal opportunites to the children may have failed the 11+ to access gammer school teachers/faculities .. (on the flip side - gammer schools high standard *may* drop).

AmenToThat

capistrano wrote:

Do nationalist NI voters simply not respect normal non-violent democratic norms?

Nope they simply look at whos active on the ground in their communities working for them and standing up for them and realize that the media spin that tries to tar all Republicans as gangsters simply isnt true.

AmenToThat

As a matter of interest can anyone point me in the direction of the most recent opinion polls regarding the up comming election online for the six counties?

Many thanks.

capistrano

AmenToThat wrote:

Nope they simply look at whos active on the ground in their communities working for them and standing up for them and realize that the media spin that tries to tar all Republicans as gangsters simply isnt true.

Two questions for you:
1. Do you believe that Gerry Adams is on the IRA Army Council?
2. Do you believe that IRA were responsible for the Northern Bank robbery?

I certainly think that the balance of probabilities means the answer to both questions is Yes.

So don't tell me that it's media spin that is trying to tar all republicans as gangsters.

I personally believe that most people in NI know about the SF and IRA links and it just doesn't bother them. To me it just seems like there is a moral vacuum at the heart of nationalist northern politics.

capistrano

AmenToThat wrote:

As a matter of interest can anyone point me in the direction of the most recent opinion polls regarding the up comming election online for the six counties?

Don't forget that SF's vote is always underestimated in opinion polls becasue:

1. People are ashamed to admit they will vote SF, or
2. SF are much better at getting their vote out on the day.

AmenToThat

capistrano wrote:

Two questions for you:
1. Do you believe that Gerry Adams is on the IRA Army Council?

I do and am thankful for it. Your assuming that I view the IRA as something to be ashamed of. In this thinking you couldnt be more wrong. Indeed they committed many horrible acts during the last thirty years and no death is something to rejoice in but Im afraid the nature of war dictates that people die, many of them innocents unfortunately and the actions of the IRA have been no worse than any of the other combatents in this sad conflict. War is war. I do now however believe the climate is right for the IRA to now dispand and hope this happens.
As for Adams being at the helm of the IRA here is a man who wants to move away from violence and has done his best to bring the majority of the IRA volunteers with him, I think when passions have cooled history will on the whole view him in a good light.
Having him as the guiding force of military Republicanism is something we all should be thankful for as there are many within Republicanism who to this day dont agree with the ceasefire and wish to continue the fight for a 32 county Irish Republic militarily.

capistrano wrote:

2. Do you believe that IRA were responsible for the Northern Bank robbery?

I believe that a unit in Belfast carried out the robbery but this does not equate to the 'whole IRA' in the same way that irregularities within the Donegal gardai should not be used to brand all the gardai.

capistrano wrote:

So don't tell me that it's media spin that is trying to tar all republicans as gangsters.

Thats precisely what Im telling you, and you again have just proved the point by attempting to use these two axamples to brand all Republicans.
As I said I see through this spin as do the majority of the nationalist population in the six counties it would seem.

capistrano wrote:

I personally believe that most people in NI know about the SF and IRA links and it just doesn't bother them.

As do I and it doesnt bother me. I wish the IRA would disband and I believe that an end to criminal activity is being sought. If I didnt believe that SF are actively trying to tactle criminality by some of its members I wouldnt vote for them. Simple as that

capistrano wrote:

To me it just seems like there is a moral vacuum at the heart of nationalist northern politics.

I think thats a very ignorant statement to make as I have met many northern nationalists whom I would say have values and morals far above many of those in the Republic who have suckled at the breasts of the Celtic tiger and now believe that the world revolves around them and them alone.

capistrano

AmenToThat wrote:

I believe that a unit in Belfast carried out the robbery but this does not equate to the 'whole IRA' in the same way that irregularities within the Donegal gardai should not be used to brand all the gardai.

Ah, there's the rub. You think it was a renegage group within the IRA. No way. An operation on this scale would have been sanctioned at the highest level. So Adams would have known.

So you accept that Gerry Adams is on the IRA Army Council and you accept that the IRA did the Northern Bank robbery (albeit a renegage group). But still you maintain it's "media spin" that's brands them as gangsters. Wake up and smell the cordite!

Just as a matter of interest, do you think that an IRA commander (Davison?) ordered the murder of Robert McCartney as his sisters have said?

uberwolf

capistrano wrote:

Two questions for you:
1. Do you believe that Gerry Adams is on the IRA Army Council?
2. Do you believe that IRA were responsible for the Northern Bank robbery?

.

I think we've seen were this line of questioning has led in the past. Rather than focus on these issues lets keep it broader or this thread hasn't a chance.

mmkay?

capistrano

uberwolf wrote:

I think we've seen were this line of questioning has led in the past. Rather than focus on these issues lets keep it broader or this thread hasn't a chance.

mmkay?

I agree. I really just trying to get a look inside the heads of people who vote SF despite believing that they are closely linked to the IRA and all that that entails.

Essentially they're putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum.

AmenToThat

capistrano wrote:

Ah, there's the rub. You think it was a renegage group within the IRA. No way. An operation on this scale would have been sanctioned at the highest level. So Adams would have known.

Says you, I dont agree.

capistrano wrote:

So you accept that Gerry Adams is on the IRA Army Council.

Yes and I have no problem with this fact as I have already stated :rolleyes:

capistrano wrote:

and you accept that the IRA did the Northern Bank robbery (albeit a renegage group). But still you maintain it's "media spin" that's brands them as gangsters. Wake up and smell the cordite!

No its media spin that tries to brand all republicans as gangsters because of incidents of this nature. My point is that the media have used the bank incident in an attempt to brand all Republicans which simply isnt true. That was the thesis of my thread and why I believe the majority of northern nationalists vote for SF which you well know and have choosen to to ignore.
So instead of me waking up and smelling the cordite as you put it may I respectfully suggest you take your blinkers off and look at the whole picture instead of the portion that suites your argument.

capistrano wrote:

Just as a matter of interest, do you think that an IRA commander (Davison?) ordered the murder of Robert McCartney as his sisters have said?

Going to let you in on a little secret here. Im not from Belfast AND Im not in the IRA so the simple answer to that one is.................I dont know.
This thread like all those before it regarding SF is going off topic.

AmenToThat

capistrano wrote:

Essentially they're putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum.

Well previously we'v had the UUP, DUP and the British Conservative party so I would suggest that its simply putting a different set of lunatics incharge of the asylum.

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

I agree. I really just trying to get a look inside the heads of people who vote SF despite believing that they are closely linked to the IRA and all that that entails.

Essentially they're putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum.

The lunatics were running the place for decades before it all kicked off as the latest troubles.

Your best bet if you want to 'get into the heads' of the SF voters in NI is to actually go there and speak to them. I would advise, however, that you lose the hint of condescension that is displayed here.

capistrano

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would advise, however, that you lose the hint of condescension that is displayed here.

Or I might get Padre Pio-ed?

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

Or I might get Padre Pio-ed?

Nope

If you want people to talk to you, it helps if you are not patronising towards them. If they do not talk to you, you cannot succeed in what you set out to do.

ziggy

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Blub2k4

AmenToThat wrote:

I do and am thankful for it. Your assuming that I view the IRA as something to be ashamed of. In this thinking you couldnt be more wrong. Indeed they committed many horrible acts during the last thirty years and no death is something to rejoice in but Im afraid the nature of war dictates that people die, many of them innocents unfortunately and the actions of the IRA have been no worse than any of the other combatents in this sad conflict. War is war. I do now however believe the climate is right for the IRA to now dispand and hope this happens.
As for Adams being at the helm of the IRA here is a man who wants to move away from violence and has done his best to bring the majority of the IRA volunteers with him, I think when passions have cooled history will on the whole view him in a good light.
Having him as the guiding force of military Republicanism is something we all should be thankful for as there are many within Republicanism who to this day dont agree with the ceasefire and wish to continue the fight for a 32 county Irish Republic militarily.



I believe that a unit in Belfast carried out the robbery but this does not equate to the 'whole IRA' in the same way that irregularities within the Donegal gardai should not be used to brand all the gardai.



Thats precisely what Im telling you, and you again have just proved the point by attempting to use these two axamples to brand all Republicans.
As I said I see through this spin as do the majority of the nationalist population in the six counties it would seem.



As do I and it doesnt bother me. I wish the IRA would disband and I believe that an end to criminal activity is being sought. If I didnt believe that SF are actively trying to tactle criminality by some of its members I wouldnt vote for them. Simple as that



I think thats a very ignorant statement to make as I have met many northern nationalists whom I would say have values and morals far above many of those in the Republic who have suckled at the breasts of the Celtic tiger and now believe that the world revolves around them and them alone.

Excellent post, you should post on this subject more often. Careful if you do though, your opinion will eventually be taken to be that of P O'Neill after a while and then people will start looking for veiled threats in statements of fact.

capistrano wrote:

Or I might get Padre Pio-ed?

:rolleyes:

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

War is war.

Do you accept that the very vast majority of the Irish people never gave their permission for this war to be carried out in their name and had a dim view of the IRA's actions?

PH01

Has anyone mentioned money?
SF has far more money than the SDLP. They are therefore able to support a bigger organisation with full time staff (I wouldn't be surprised if SF has 10 times more full time staff than the SDLP).
When you have a big organisation like this you're in a far better position to support an electorate.

Now where SF get their funds is anybodys guess

capistrano

ziggy67 wrote:

Capistrano, do you believe people who vote Sinn Fein to be imbeciles?

No, only an imbecile himself would think they are all imbeciles.

What I think is that they probably have a very different moral outlook than me. They are clearly able to support folks who cause physical and mental harm to people as well as breaking lots of other laws. I don't care what good they do in communities, the bad far outweighs the good.

While, I'm not a unionist, I think David Trimble was close to the mark when he said that "these folks ain't house trained yet" (or something like that).

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

What I think is that they probably have a very different moral outlook than me. They are clearly able to support folks who cause physical and mental harm to people as well as breaking lots of other laws. I don't care what good they do in communities, the bad far outweighs the good.

There are hundreds of sitting MPs in this the UK election who will get plenty of votes and those voters are clearly able to support folk who cause physical and mental harm. Imagine that!

While, I'm not a unionist, I think David Trimble was close to the mark when he said that "these folks ain't house trained yet" (or something like that).

And patronising is even closer to describing that viewpoint.

earwicker

They are clearly able to support folks who cause physical and mental harm to people as well as breaking lots of other laws.

So, are you a pacifist?

monument

Does anyone know the number of families both north and south looking ‘for justice’ in cases that do not have or never had proper inquires? Would a lot of these cases be where state involvement is alleged?

I'm just confused as to how people can vote for parities which have been in government since these people have been looking for justice only to be stonewalled by such parities.


In a different approach - as it stands, one has to think…

A) Mr Blair/the British Army/intelligence agencies believe massive violence is ok to free people or sections of people in undemocratic states and to keep their people safe and/or…

They are killing people and lying for other reasons

So, in each case or both cases, (my) logic can only conclude they have double standards and/or they often lye about things for their own self interest.

capistrano wrote:

While, I'm not a unionist, I think David Trimble was close to the mark when he said that "these folks ain't house trained yet" (or something like that).

How jolly, we should bulldoze their houses! These Irish savages etc etc etc…. :rolleyes:

How sad, and your first post actually sounded genuine.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There are hundreds of sitting MPs in this the UK election who will get plenty of votes and those voters are clearly able to support folk who cause physical and mental harm. Imagine that!

And if anyone wants something closer to home, there's Shannon Airport and our government's support for the US military.

capistrano

earwicker wrote:

So, are you a pacifist?

No. Sometimes you have to fight: like against Hitler, or to intervene to stop a genocide. That kind of stuff. What Nationalists sufferred in NI in no way justified a physical force response. And to call it a war is a way to justifying the unjustifiable. It was not a war. The only people who refer to it as a war are the paramilitaries.

Rock Climber

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There are hundreds of sitting MPs in this the UK election who will get plenty of votes and those voters are clearly able to support folk who cause physical and mental harm. Imagine that!

yeah and there are many Sinn Féin supporters who can protest an illegal war in Iraq , yet support and glorify an illegal IRA war in Northern Ireland...

Imagine that!

earwicker

It was not a war.

You'll find that such clear distinctions are not easy to maintain. Are you certain that the British regiments, generals, all the soldiers and their units did not see themselves as being at war?

monument

capistrano wrote:

What Nationalists sufferred in NI in no way justified a physical force response.

What did they suffer?

capistrano

monument wrote:

What did they suffer?

Discrimination in terms of housing, local franchaise, public sector jobs - that sort of thing. The same kind of discrimination that black people sufferred in the USA, but they sought redress is mostly peaceful ways.

capistrano

earwicker wrote:

You'll find that such clear distinctions are not easy to maintain. Are you certain that the British regiments, generals, all the soldiers and their units did not see themselves as being at war?

It's just that I don't regard it as a war. I'd go along with guerrilla war.

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

Discrimination in terms of housing, local franchaise, public sector jobs - that sort of thing. The same kind of discrimination that black people sufferred in the USA, but they sought redress is mostly peaceful ways.

Yep, peaceful protest was met by ........... from the state. Fill in the blank.


Hint: The word peace does not enter it.

A Dub in Glasgo

capistrano wrote:

It's just that I don't regard it as a war. I'd go along with guerrilla war.

That will be the same guerrilla war that created the Republic of Ireland?

earwicker

It's just that I don't regard it as a war. I'd go along with guerrilla war.

So, it was a "war" but at the same time it wasn't a "war." Okay...

Your line of argument hasn't exactly been consistent so far, has it?