Interesting hand

bohsman

PokerStars Game #1553025607: Hold'em Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/04/20 - 00:28:39 (ET)
Table 'Indiana' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: jay hawk123 ($271.80 in chips)
Seat 2: Swingy ($224.50 in chips)
Seat 3: spoooon ($186.35 in chips)
Seat 4: 2nd Floor ($110 in chips)
Seat 5: DeadwooDave ($300.65 in chips)
Seat 6: RoccoG ($156 in chips)
Seat 7: PDKeesee ($323.20 in chips)
Seat 8: oscarf ($414.15 in chips)
Seat 9: wajfaft ($156.25 in chips)
wajfaft: posts small blind $1
jay hawk123: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to oscarf [9h 7h]
Swingy: folds
spoooon: calls $2
2nd Floor: folds
DeadwooDave: folds
RoccoG: calls $2
PDKeesee: raises $9 to $11
oscarf: calls $11
wajfaft: calls $10
jay hawk123: folds
spoooon: folds
RoccoG: calls $9
*** FLOP *** [2c 8s 9d]
wajfaft: checks
RoccoG: checks
PDKeesee: bets $10
oscarf: calls $10
wajfaft: calls $10
RoccoG: calls $10
*** TURN *** [2c 8s 9d] [9c]
wajfaft: checks
RoccoG: checks
PDKeesee: bets $18
oscarf: calls $18
wajfaft: calls $18
RoccoG: calls $18
*** RIVER *** [2c 8s 9d 9c] [Js]
wajfaft: bets $40
RoccoG: raises $77 to $117 and is all-in
PDKeesee: calls $117
oscarf: folds
wajfaft said, "anybody got 99?"
wajfaft: raises $0.25 to $117.25 and is all-in
PDKeesee: calls $0.25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wajfaft: shows [Jd Jh] (a full house, Jacks full of Nines)
PDKeesee: shows (a straight, Seven to Jack)
wajfaft collected $0.50 from side pot
RoccoG: mucks hand
PDKeesee said, "nh"
wajfaft collected $508 from main pot
PDKeesee said, "****"
wajfaft said, "ty"

Could I have played this any differently, I was happy to milk it and I dont think I was pushing JJ off the hand

Lafortezza

bohsman wrote:

Dealt to oscarf [9h 7h]
PDKeesee: raises $9 to $11
oscarf: calls $11

I wouldn't have called this, even if you were confident of overcalls behind you.

bohsman wrote:

*** FLOP *** [2c 8s 9d]
PDKeesee: bets $10
oscarf: calls $10
wajfaft: calls $10
RoccoG: calls $10

Suited gappers are good and all but I think you need to hit the flop harder than this to be confident of continuing in the hand.
You weren't worried about a raise behind you?

bohsman wrote:

*** TURN *** [2c 8s 9d] [9c]
wajfaft: checks
RoccoG: checks
PDKeesee: bets $18
oscarf: calls $18
wajfaft: calls $18
RoccoG: calls $18

I think this is where you need to raise to find out exactly where you are.
"Hi everyone, I have a nine and I think my hand is best so give me the pot plz"

bohsman wrote:

*** RIVER *** [2c 8s 9d 9c] [Js]
wajfaft: bets $40
RoccoG: raises $77 to $117 and is all-in
PDKeesee: calls $117
oscarf: folds

I don't think there's many worse hands than 9h7h betting and raising in this spot.

bohsman wrote:

Could I have played this any differently, I was happy to milk it and I dont think I was pushing JJ off the hand

Fold preflop? You could probably have folded JJ on the turn.

bohsman

Of course I could have folded preflop but that would have been no fun, I like my suited connectors and had position on the preflop raiser who was a weak player, I was confident my 9 was ahead of the raiser on the flop no other players had shown strength so wasnt worried about a reraise and it was an easy fold on the river

Hectorjelly

The one element that makes this hand so hard to play is the fact that whilst you have position on the raiser, you are out of position with regards to the rest of the field. Normally a flop is checked to the preflop raiser so you will have no information on the rest of the fields hands when its your action. You actually are in the worst possible position for a multiway pot.

In short; preflop the call is ok but if the pot develops multiway you are in a bad spot. A reraise if you know the player well pretty much guarantees you will be heads up with position; allthough you will have then overcharged yourself to see the flop.

On the flop I think a raise would be bad with that many hands behind you. Folding is the safer option but its only $12 so a call to reevaluate later is probably best.

On the turn there is absolutely no reason to raise, your hand is either good or it isnt, and if you are ahead your opponents are drawing pretty slim. A raise here gives away your hand, creates an unmanageabley big pot and puts you in a tough spot if you get reraised. 2 Other players called a bet on the flop with no flush draw possible, so its very likely that one has either trips as well, or has now had a set turn into a full house. However the bet is $18 and its a massive pot, so folding is out of the question. Just call and see how your opponents like their hands on the river. This is a situation where raising has almost no advantages.

On the river; easy fold. Roccog moved all in and mucked his hand, my guess is that he flopped a set or had 89, in which case you were almost drawing dead from the flop onwards.

bohsman

RoccoG had QT for the nut straight. (the auto hand viewer on stars is really handy) I was ahead till the river. Didnt think anyone had the straight but was convinced JJ had hit

OhPinchy

what does the auto hand viewer show you - can you tell that he had QT by seeing in the log that he showed his hand or what is it?

I'm only learning and play only STTs so am not sure about the strategy that applies in cash games but evertyhing I've read suggests that gapped connectors are a very mediocre hand (as are low suited connectors unless in late position) so I'm surprised to see such a large raise being called with them. Is this right? Would you have raised with this hand if there was no raise into you? What is the general consensus on this approach?

On the same note - just how good are low/medium suited connectors? If I am in late position and am let limp in with them I will but I will never call a raise, or raise myself with say 6h7h (unless its one of those hands I'm delibarately playing unusually to throw off reads). Not meaning to hijack your thread - just looking for advice on how to play hands like yours in general.

In my limited experience I'd reckon it would be best to bet the flop cos you hit top pair, if preflop raiser reraises its clear he has an overpair as opposed to something like AK. I would try to avoid the inclination to check to the raiser - your bet might make him read you for having hit a set. When you hit trips on the turn and are exposed to a potential straight (forget the full house which was very difficult to anticipate, though the J could easily have made someones straight anyways) or even a hand drawing to a straight, I can't see how it can be profitable in the long term not to bet here to make it too expensive for anyone on a drawing hand (which in effect the eventual winning hand was) to call. In a vulnerable position like that I would be focused on taking the pot down right now as opposed to milking it later.

bohsman

Id advice only playing suited connectors if you can get away from it if you feel your behind, the best thing about suited connectors is if you hit your flop potential pay against an overpair is high. The hand viewer shows all hands involved in a showdown even if its been mucked by the player

Samba

MMmm,

The problem with betting big on the turn is a bad player with JJ or QQ is not going to lay down here.


This is the problem calling pre-flop with these hands, the turn brings somthing promising only for the river to break you.

You get caught up in hands that really you should not have been playing to start with, it can work out great or get you in to alot of trouble.

Hectorjelly

OhPinchy wrote:

In my limited experience I'd reckon it would be best to bet the flop cos you hit top pair, if preflop raiser reraises its clear he has an overpair as opposed to something like AK. I would try to avoid the inclination to check to the raiser - your bet might make him read you for having hit a set. When you hit trips on the turn and are exposed to a potential straight (forget the full house which was very difficult to anticipate, though the J could easily have made someones straight anyways) or even a hand drawing to a straight, I can't see how it can be profitable in the long term not to bet here to make it too expensive for anyone on a drawing hand (which in effect the eventual winning hand was) to call. In a vulnerable position like that I would be focused on taking the pot down right now as opposed to milking it later.

If you play like this you may as well turn your cards face up, you dont raise on the turn because you are either way ahead or way behind, and at this stage you should try to get to a showdown as cheap as possible.

OhPinchy

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you play like this you may as well turn your cards face up, you dont raise on the turn because you are either way ahead or way behind, and at this stage you should try to get to a showdown as cheap as possible.

I don't fully get this - are you saying that if I play the way I described then its so predicatble I may aswell turn over my cards?

And are you saying that you should check on the turn as you are either way ahead or way behind? When I'm way ahead and my opponents' have very few outs that could possibly beat me, I'll check the turn hoping to call their raise or get some good action from them on the river, when, even though their miracle card mightnt have come, they may believe they have best hand, which pays off my hand.

However, the hand in this situation may be way ahead on the flop/turn but for me there was too many outs that could give your opponents a better hand for you to give them a cheap card. I'm not saying I'm right, far from it, its just this is my basic understanding so I'd appreciate you shedding light on it.

BrendanB

Just a thought Hector, isn't this a situation where there's feck all chance of being paid significantly on the river if you are (and remain) ahead, and where you should be thinking of charging overpairs and straight draws for their draw?

Hectorjelly

BrendanB wrote:

Just a thought Hector, isn't this a situation where there's feck all chance of being paid significantly on the river if you are (and remain) ahead, and where you should be thinking of charging overpairs and straight draws for their draw?

Your right but the way the hand developed I would be far from certain that you had the best hand on the turn, I think in this case the benefits of keeping the pot small far outweigh the risk of giving a free card. I wouldnt try and get paid off significently on the river.

Culchie

Slightly OT but related ...please bear with me


What interests me, and I'm sure I might get some stick for this is

a) Shouldn't this hand have been folded?... (I definitely would have)

and more importantly

b) You would need a serious bankroll to play this loose and sustain 'a bad night' at the cards.....which must surely run into thousands ??

I mean, I've a decent job with salary, but have a mortgage, car loan etc... all the usual stuff.
I play $10 to $20 STT, with the odd MTT on-line, I don't have to deposit money, and Poker is paying all the bills at the moment, I'm up $300 - $1000 a month since christmas, since I started becoming profitable....happy days.
I bring my bankroll back to $200 at the end of each month, and off we go again.

However the STT circuit is quite a safe route to profitablility, obviously not the quickest, but surely the most consistent for a good player (I am only a 6 month average player) ...

Anyways my question is.....

Is the gambling 'buzz' that comes with NL cash games not a sign of something quite addictive, as it has the highs and lows etc.... You read of World Champions going broke...how, why?

Why do good poker players shun the STT circuit, I think it is because it is 'routine' in that there is a repetitive formula that works ...Play tight early, loosen up when 4 or 5 are gone, moving up through the gears collecting blinds etc...
The formula becomes boring after a while, hence the attraction to the 'buzz' of the NL cash game....for that real good night at the cards.
I am taking into account the 'fish' element.
What do they say...on average 1 big bet profit per hour in NL cash, and that's for pros?

I believe in Bankroll management, and I know all good players know about it... but do they really follow it? .... and the good players that don't follow it, aren't they an accident waiting to happen?

Hectorjelly

calling a raise with hands like 97c is almost mandatory if you want to be successfull against ok - good players in nl cash games with deep stacks.

A lot of players shun stts because they are boring and they dont allow much room for post flop play.

Marq

Culchie wrote:

I mean, I've a decent job with salary....Poker is paying all the bills at the moment....I'm up $300 - $1000 a month since christmas

Where do I get a mortgage as cheap as yours.

Culchie

Sorry Marq ... you have the benefits of youth though !!

bohsman

Stars cash games are very tight, as HJ says the only way to get paid is by playing loose and getting paid by overcards/pairs It also leaves the other player on tilt and the rest of the table giving you no respect when you have the goods, I havent lost a buyin in my last ten

ie

Dealer: oscarf has three of a kind, Sixes
Dealer: Game #1562494346: oscarf wins pot ($154.70) with three of a kind, Sixes
under_pants: how could you call any raise with 68
oscarf: SUITED!!!!
Leitchj: Sooooted
under_pants: suited doesn't mean anything to a good player
oscarf: lol
under_pants: lol if you want but its true
oscarf: ssshhhh Im counting your chips
under_pants: not for long playing those chips genius

I get that every cash game I play on Stars

Samba

Mmm, I agree the only way to take down big pots at ultra tight tables is to vary your play between tight and loose.

However, you will run into trouble with kickers etc filled boats and it will come back to bite you in the ass if you are not very careful.

You have to be able to recognise when your hand is funct.

fine line.


67o/78s is one of my personal favourite Pocket Rocket Cracker.

Culchie

bohsman wrote:

oscarf: ssshhhh Im counting your chips

Love it !