The Complete Guitarist

Paligulus

Hey,
I've been meaning to post this for ages! I was just wondering what other guitarists feel that you need to know to be a pretty decent guitarist. Not just the various techniques but music theory too. If everybody posts at leasts one thing we will cover a fairly broad area considering everybody here has a different taste in music and therefore a different view and the kind of things you need to know to be a great guitarists.

Although I'm looking forward to seeing experts waxing lyrical about the benefits of using the Lydian mode or the dimished scale, I would like to see beginners contributing aswell so we can cover everything.

Maybe it could be helpfull to beginner guitarists who are curious about the different things they will need to learn.

Now I have a feeling this post may provoke a fair bit of abuse, but I don't really care as I'd just like to see what sort of styles and techniques ya'll are using,
Sorry about the long post,
Cheers

jptk

i think you should learn all the major modes. The harmonic minor and mixolydyian b2 b6. Major and minor pentatonics aswell. Thats enough for rock music really. dont just learn them though, use them when improvising otherwise youll forget them. I think you should learn and use one at a time untill you are completely comfortable with

Paligulus

Out of curiosity. Does anybody actually learn the names of the different modes or (like me) do you just learn the minor scale in every position on the fret board. Does anybody think it's important to treat them as individual scales?

(Puts arms around head and waits for the inevitable backlash!!!)

Brother A

Uh, I think you should learn to play in time.
Tap your foot while you play or whatever,
but get spot on to the beat and you can't go wrong.

Paligulus

I find listening to the drums of a song always helps with this (particularly the hi-hat). Does anybody use a metronome?

deise boy

Yes goog thinking batman.......its almost as if the drums were there to keep time or something isnt it?

jcoote

being a good guitarist is taking what u know or have learned and make your music your own make people remember your **** and respect u for it...

we don't need another guitar hero!!!!!
i think a variety of styles is important too not much point in just being able to play all of led zep's tunes... its shows u can play but doesn't show u can create...

all major and minor scales are a necessity i suppose and learing various techniques such as appreggios and harmonics are also a good idea ... all just my opinion tho

NotMe

Paligulus wrote:

Out of curiosity. Does anybody actually learn the names of the different modes or (like me) do you just learn the minor scale in every position on the fret board. Does anybody think it's important to treat them as individual scales?

(Puts arms around head and waits for the inevitable backlash!!!)

I know nothing about modes. Is the minor scale in every position not just all the minor scales? I mean if you play B-minor up a fret its C-minor. Are modes just the same thing, like C-minor = B-(some mode)?

jcoote

NotMe wrote:

I know nothing about modes. Is the minor scale in every position not just all the minor scales? I mean if you play B-minor up a fret its C-minor. Are modes just the same thing, like C-minor = B-(some mode)?

no modes are not scales shifted along the fret board they are shifted within themselves...here's 7 modes

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7


see the way the pattern develops its just the scale played starting with a differnt root (first) not and continued from there.... make sense????

Paligulus

deise boy wrote:

Yes goog thinking batman.......its almost as if the drums were there to keep time or something isnt it?

Ouch!!!
You'd be surprised how many guitarists look at you with a blank face when you say that though...

Paligulus

jcoote wrote:

no modes are not scales shifted along the fret board they are shifted within themselves...here's 7 modes

see the way the pattern develops its just the scale played starting with a differnt root (first) not and continued from there.... make sense????

That's as good an explanation of the modes as i've seen.

So have I got this right. In terms of scales if you know
1) all the modes (basically the minor/major scale in different positions)

2) the harmonic minor scale (that neo-classical sounding scale with the flattened root)

3)the good old reliable pentatonic (and the blues scale)

4)The hybrid scale (basically the major scale bunged into the pentatonic)

are ya fairly sorted?

2+2=5

are we talking about being a good guitarist, or being a guitar nerd?
there is a fine line.

juno75

Practice with a metronome

Alternate pick (the amount of players who only down pick is sad, although down picking is approprate sometimes)

Practice a bit every day rather than 8 hours on sunday etc

Be aware of theory and modes but dont go up your ar$e with it if you dont want to.
Jimi Hendrix couldent tell you the diff between Locrian and Aeolin but he could play it.

Learn off other people and jam with anyone you get a chance to

Devolop you ear, a vital skill. Start trying to work stuff out by ear rather than tab/sheet. Start on simple stuff.

Ignore insecuure players who feel the need to blab on about how they know X,y and z and you know nothing unless you agree with them.

Be open minded and listen to a lot of music - I'm a blues(ish) player but I listen to a lot of Dub and Jazz.

As mentioned jamming with a Drummer is priceless (if he can stay in time)

Try get you head around a bit of bass guitar

write/record your own stuff even if it never sees the light of day -
get an old 4 track or something, hearing your playing is like hearing your own voice on tape - "I dont sound like that!!"

Do your own thing:)

jptk

Get music theory lessons. Knowing music theory dosnt make you a guitar nerd! being unable to play well makes you a pile of Sh*te.

juno75

being unable to play well makes you a pile of Sh*te.

no sh!t

Paligulus

I agree with the alternate picking thing. Makes an awfull difference to you're playing.

"Ignore insecuure players who feel the need to blab on about how they know X,y and z and you know nothing unless you agree with them."

Reminds me of a joke:

Q: How do know a guitarist at a party?

A: He'll tell you!!

and:

Q: How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Three. One to actually change it and two to stand at the back of the room saying "I could have done that better".

NotMe

jcoote wrote:

no modes are not scales shifted along the fret board they are shifted within themselves...here's 7 modes

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7


see the way the pattern develops its just the scale played starting with a differnt root (first) not and continued from there.... make sense????

I see. So you can just play notes from the C major scale and say "Hey I'm playing from the G Mixolydian mode". Basically the only difference is the name? Or is it only a mode when you play it in that order?

Brother A

Well,
(I think)
You can tell what mode you're in by the note which 'feels' like the main note of your scale.

.So in the scale given (C), if you played a lot of C's, you could claim you were in the Ionian mode
.And if you played a lot of D's you could tell your muso friends you were in the Dorian mode

So its all a bit subjective really I always think - which of course allows you to play around with the 'mode' you're in.

Also, these days not many bother with any modes besides the Major (Ionian) & Minor (Aeolian).

jptk

NotMe wrote:

I see. So you can just play notes from the C major scale and say "Hey I'm playing from the G Mixolydian mode". Basically the only difference is the name? Or is it only a mode when you play it in that order?

If your playing in the key of c. And then you play a g7 chord, The scale to use over that would be g mixolydyian, even though it has the same notes as c major, the chord behind it makes it sound different.

jcoote

2+2=5 wrote:

are we talking about being a good guitarist, or being a guitar nerd?
there is a fine line.

if u know everything about playing the guitar and i mean everything your a great guitarist... if u can make any good music out of that knowledge your a guitar nerd!!!!

jcoote

NotMe wrote:

I see. So you can just play notes from the C major scale and say "Hey I'm playing from the G Mixolydian mode". Basically the only difference is the name? Or is it only a mode when you play it in that order?

no a scale is called a certain note (c,d,e etc) because that note is the root of the scale... so a c major scale is in c and a g mixolydian is in the key of g see??? so yeah u have to play the notes in that order!!!

jptk

jcoote wrote:

if u know everything about playing the guitar and i mean everything your a great guitarist... if u can make any good music out of that knowledge your a guitar nerd!!!!

That makes no sense whatsoever

juno75

did not take long for this degenerate into a load of nit picking cr@p did it?!

come on lads, drop the one upmanship and stick some decent advice up, Im sure we acan all learn something of each other...

[ Daithí ]

Alternate picking does help.

Also:

http://www.looknohands.com

Paligulus

juno75 wrote:

did not take long for this degenerate into a load of nit picking cr@p did it?!

come on lads, drop the one upmanship and stick some decent advice up, Im sure we acan all learn something of each other...

I agree, the whole, you should know a bit of theory/you should play what you feel, debate isn't really relevant here. Personally, I just like learning new things on the guitar.

That looknohands.com site is very good. Cheers.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know how you would go about using those mad exotic scales? I mean how would you know what chord progression would work (other than playing around with it). C major wouldn't scale wouldn't neccessarily work over the same chords as C blues so you can't really go by the name of the scale.

Does anybody here actually use any of those exotic scales?!!!

juno75

I agree, the whole, you should know a bit of theory/you should play what you feel

I concurr

As for using Harmonic Minor and the like, The more exotic the scale I think the more carefull you have to be with the use of it as it colour the sound/feel of the song so much.
I learnt the stuff way back when I was into metal and the like as the use of these scale is pretty common in that type of music.

If you think of Ghost Town by the Specials thats a Harmonic Minor Scale over a really simple chord progression. You get that egyption thang going. Dick Dale on Miseralou (sp?) Kasmier by led zep
(before I get flamed Im not giving examples of Harminic Minor per se, I know they may be Phrygian or what ever, Im just suggesting what these sorts scales feel/sound like when used and hiow you could use them)
If you listen to a band called Ozric Tenticals they always go for the eastern vibe with the guitar and it sounds well exotic.

No harder than any other scale, learn your 5 box positions, practice them in the different postions and jam....
btw - get a cheap nylon string and pretend you can play flamenco is fun...

jcoote

jptk wrote:

That makes no sense whatsoever

sorry i meant

if u know everything about playing the guitar and i mean everything your a great guitarist... if u CAN'T make any good music out of that knowledge your a guitar nerd!!!!

jptk

jcoote wrote:

sorry i meant

if u know everything about playing the guitar and i mean everything your a great guitarist... if u CAN'T make any good music out of that knowledge your a guitar nerd!!!!

Ah, i see. I agree totally!

As for exotic scales, your ears kind of have to get use to the sounds of some of them(eg Hungarian major!?). A good place to start is to learn about avoid notes( the notes you shouldnt rest on cause they dont sound good ). Also, if you just record yourself playing a powerchord, you can try out various exotic scales as long as they have the root and 5th, basically, just make sure the notes in the scale match the chord

jcoote

thats a great way of doing it (playing the scale over the power chord that is)

tj-music.com

Wow, I am not a guitarist at all but I was fortunate enough to work with almost 30 of them. Very different styles they played. I am a drummer and a keyboarder but what I learned throughout my musical adventures is that it is more important to know your boundaries and then to focus on your strength rather than listening to Jimi Hendrix or Eddie Van Halen all day and getting frustrated because they r (usually) so much better that oneself.

I take it as Gene Simmons (KISS) was saying it: "It is important that you play your instrument well, but a simple a-chord that cracks your rips means more than 20 notes played in a second" - It is all about feeling and melody, I suppose.

And yes, I agree with those of you who think that the ability to write good songs and make the music your own outweighs the ability to just play difficult notes.

A guitar fan, not a guitar player

Paligulus

The thing about the harmonic minor scale is that if you have a chord progression in Am then the Am harmonic scale should work as well as the A minor scale. But it's a lot harder to know if some mad hungarian or Japanesse scale will work over it!!!

Yeah, the whole trial and error thing over a power chord is as good a technique as any!!!!

jcoote

i think being original is the key nowadys cos everyone is on the retro buzz just rewriting the past 3 or 4 decades and adding bits in ...its kinda boring doin something new would greatly contribute to being a good guitarist i reckin

Paligulus

I know I'm probably gonna get attacked for posting this but....!!!!!!!

here's a scale I like using. It's pretty much a pentatonic/major hybrid scale arranged in a way that you can play 3 notes per string.This position works anything 'rocky' in A. Works really well over A blues...

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8-9-12

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7-8-10

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5-6-9

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4-5-7

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3-4-7

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|--5

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jcoote

why would u get attacked...i used that scale a while ago (or somethin similar) its great to lighten up you touch and get your fingers sweeping across the strings and up the fret board.. a lot of scales stay on the same frets all the way thru the scale..this one makes for great practice

Paligulus

I mean getting attacked for posting scales in general!!

Yeah I found it really loosens up the aul fingers. And its usefull!!

juno75

bit off topic but:

You ever get embarresed saying you play guitar?(dont say 'lead' guitar) Happens when I'm with other muso's as you instantly have to proove you aint an ego manical to$$er. I know my self becasue I think of the stereotype when anybody introduces themselvs as a 'lead guitarist' or 'the' guitar player

Im just paranoid probably but I'd like to think Im not that much of a to$$er when it comes to my instrument. I know well why peeps hold these perceptions of us guitar players.
Unfortunatly its right most of the time..

Sometimes I 'd rather say I played french trombone or summfink, jazz flute maybe....

jcoote

well guitarist in general would kinda have a god complex but i think the arseholes that go around sayin that they are "the" guitarist in their band are probably just excited about being able to play sweet child of mine and have not as much talent as they let on

Paligulus

I know what you're saying. But what really pi**es me off is that can't win when you're talking to other guitarists. If you start chatting with someone about guitar and you mention any of the big names (Gary Moore, John Sykes etc...) they give you a crap about not being into that techniqal crap and they'd prefer to their own thing and make weird noises with the guitar.

Then you get into a conversation with some techniqally gifted metal-head and unless you can play Steve Morse licks or Yngwie style sweeped arpeggios they're all dismissive of you!!

Basically I've given up trying to talk guitar with anybody!!!! But I agree, you don't wanna come across as a protentious guitar head!!!

jcoote

i think its good to be versatile have some good skills (that u need) an be creative with your setup to make the weird sounds... i think most of the time when people dismiss stuff music wise its just cos they are either jealous or just couldn't hold a conversation about say gary moore or yngwie and just dismiss it as being crap to save embarrasment!!!!!!!!!!!

juno75

Then you get into a conversation with some techniqally gifted metal-head and unless you can play Steve Morse licks or Yngwie style sweeped arpeggios they're all dismissive of you!!

Hit the nail on the head. As an ex shredder - I was into metal for the first 4 years of my playing (playing 15 yrs,getting old!!)
I would have had a pretty reasonable/good level of technique.
Being a birdless spotty teenage metal head left a lot of time to practice. Although I could move my fingers in a blur and play all sorts of neo classical sweeps and string skipp/tappin ya da ya da I can safely say I did not have an ounce of actual emotion in the playing. Now Im not saying this music is emotionless, it clearly is very angry. I was just playing with my brain and not my heart/balls.
As I started branching into other styles/genera of music things started to change.
What I am happy about is the disipline and technachall know how I derived from playing metal. This formed the bed rock of my playing which I use these days with out thinking about it.
BUT - I could not shred at gunpoint today, not for anything. I just dont have those sorts of muscles in my arms!
Where I stand now though is every single not I play is stuffed with as much feel I can muster. the only way I can get feel is basically not to think about what I am playing. When I analyse/worry about what Im playing then I am just flayling around/sounding uninspired.
So for me to get feel I have to not think about what Im doing.
When I record, I let the tape (hard disk) roll , jam out and then cherry pick the good bit which just 'happen' under thier own vibe

Sorry for the ramble but works quite today

Paligulus

Yeah I'd agree with that. A good example of that would be Rodrigo & Gabrielle who learned most of their technique from playing in metal bands. Now from listening to their music you can sometimes hear these influences, but you would never describe their music as souless, or as mindless 'widdling'.

Personally, I think it's nice to learn as much as you can even if you don't use it in you're music. Anytime I write anytime it often comes out sounding fairly melodic or mellow. At the same I still enjoy learning as many 'cock-rock' licks as I can!!!

AliMac

I ****ing love harmonics.

AliMac

Paligulus wrote:

I know what you're saying. But what really pi**es me off is that can't win when you're talking to other guitarists. If you start chatting with someone about guitar and you mention any of the big names (Gary Moore, John Sykes etc...) they give you a crap about not being into that techniqal crap and they'd prefer to their own thing and make weird noises with the guitar.

Then you get into a conversation with some techniqally gifted metal-head and unless you can play Steve Morse licks or Yngwie style sweeped arpeggios they're all dismissive of you!!

Basically I've given up trying to talk guitar with anybody!!!! But I agree, you don't wanna come across as a protentious guitar head!!!

I don't think you should give up taking to people about guitar. It looks like to me your a decent guitarist and you know what your on about. Maybe you should teach guitar lessons to let out the inner "protentious Guitar Head" in you?

juno75

talking about guitar is great and I'd do it for ever when I can find some one to listen
but it invariabley turns into a pi$$ing contest. which is a yawn.
talking to a brilliant but modest player is a joy. what ever they play.

jcoote

thats true if someone can say i do this and that and give u pointers without makin u feel like **** then its great talkin to them

Paligulus

jcoote wrote:

thats true if someone can say i do this and that and give u pointers without makin u feel like **** then its great talkin to them

Couldn't agree more!!! So has anybody anything they'd like to share???!!!

jptk

treat practice for what it is. try not to get pissed off when you find something really hard to do. just do things really slowly untill they feel natural and forget about tempo.

jcoote

yeah take your time... guitaring is a skill u need to develop and is not gonna come over night.... an open mind also goes a long way to be coming the complete guitarist ... don't dismiss anyones (even a beginner's) opinion they might shed light on an area of the guitar that u haven't explored yet...nobody knows everything...except me

juno75

To quote Miles Davis

"Man, I dont practice, I play"

Crash course for a beginner,what I would think is essential-

Learn your open chords. Learn Bar Chords up and down neck.
learn tab (about 5 mins)
Learn open C major and Minor scale and how they relate to eachother and chords (thats all the theory u need to get buy)
Learn the 5 Box Patterns for minor pentatonic.
When you know the minor pentatonic you know Major pentatonic.
Learn concepts like 3 chord trick and 12 bar blues.
Play along to sipmle tunes when you start and set your sights higher.
Learn how to strum in time and then start riffing a bit.

I find instructional DVD's a very good method,what ever style.Its like having a tutor that you can stop and rewind.

As fo the more advanced-

keep and open mind????
I kinda have goals and a practice routine. It was either study guitar a bit more and get X achived by X dat or do more MCP's.nooo.

For me routine is the key, Mon Fri after work 1-3 hours a night and I ve come on a lot in 6 months(i think?) . Gagging to get recording now tho, there is such a thing a to much time on yer tod practiceing.
Have to make the pain pay.

Guitar is all about 'the glue of repetition'

Oh yeah, learn how to play reggae guitar . Youd be amazed how many good players cant skank!! It does wonders for you timing and skankieness. its easy as well, just about the feel.Dig out the Bob CD's..

Are we the only 4 guitar players on baords i wonder?

Paligulus

juno75 wrote:

To quote Miles Davis

Are we the only 4 guitar players on baords i wonder?

Yeah I only noticed that recently!!!!

I agree with all that. On the theory side of things, a big thing for me (seems simple now) was the fact that most chords are just made up of 3 notes(triads) and they are repeated to pad out the chord and that these triads are constructed from the 1st 3rd and 5th note of the scale. Also the 3rd determines whether it is minor or major. (You can get a long way just knowing that)

Just on the whole skank thing...you can't beat of 70's funk guitar to improve your timing!!! And if you've got a wah wah, there's no harm in trying to create you're own p0rn movie soundtrack...wicka wickka wah wah...wicka wickka wah wah

Great for timing (Funk, not p0rn!!!)

Brother A

Watch more porn, become a better guitarist ! - I'll be Joe Satriani in a week.