Speculation growing that metro/interconnector will get green light

Metrobest

From Breakingnews.ie:

Govt set to approve €20bn road and rail upgrade plan
14/04/2005 - 07:47:31

The Government is reportedly set to approve a €20bn plan drawn up by Transport Minister Martin Cullen to improve Ireland's road and rail network over the next 10 years.

Reports this morning said the plan included a rapid rail link to Dublin Airport, a €1bn underground rail line between Heuston and Connolly stations and the building of a new station on the city's north docks.

The plan will also reportedly include an improvement in rail services in Kildare and a re-opening of commuter services in Meath.

This morning's reports said Mr Cullen was currently finalising the details and would bring the proposals before cabinet next month.

thejollyrodger

If they go ahead with both interconnector + metro I think it will be a good start. But will they wait for 10 years until they expand the metro ?

SeanW

The Metro plan is a joke, but its in the Programme For Government so I don't think Bertie can back out. To serve the Airport, Irish Rail's "Interconnector" and its Airport Spur from a new junction at Baldoyle can serve the Airport with six 8-coach trains per hour, directly to St. Stephens Green AND Heuston/Pearse stations. The Metro - is a bit of an unknown quantity - recent speculation from the RPA suggests the Metro could run from the Airport to O'Connell St. at a staggering cost of E1.9bn. Meanwhile Swords - which the RPA jettisoned from its plan despite a promise of funding an extension from the local authority - could be added very cheaply to the Dublin Rail Plan's Airport Spur provided it was built with an underground terminus. That means DART can cheaply and efficiently cover most of what this "Metro" sorta half aims to do.

In this environment, I object to the Metro being an "Airport-Or-Bust" job, why have a Metro somewhere else in Dublin City altogether when the time comes for one?

Metrobest

The RPA 'jettisoned' nothing from their plans. You should read the report more carefully. Not publishing something is not the same as ditching it. They simply chose to release the latest, palatable cost estimate - €1.2bn - for a line to the airport as phase 1 of the plan. I don't see how an airport-Swords metro would cost any more than a CIE-developed line from the airport-Swords?

Thankfully, politicians like Ivor Callelly are not listening to attempts to discredit the metro plans. I heard on RTE radio today that he said metro phase 1 is in the 10-year plan. The metro is not a 'joke'. It is high-quality, frequent, fast transport. What's so funny about that? Remember the bogus arguments that were made about the Luas? - we can all see what a soaraway success the Green Line has been; and a metro will be even better.

P11 Comms

Metrobest wrote:

The metro is not a 'joke'. It is high-quality, frequent, fast transport.

and it has already been dropped by the DoT, if it goes ahead it will be a totally political decision such as the WRC north of Tuam. Fianna Fail are just placing their finger in the air to see what the reaction is and then a decision will be made with the upcoming general election being the primary driver of that decision. This is why the M3 and the one-off rural housing is going ahead, electioneering.

One more dark horse that people seem to forget that a Luas to the airport is also still on the table. A much cheaper Luas to the Airport will easily make Northsiders forget about a metro.

Flukey

The Airport should have several rail links to spread the load of just having one into the city centre. They could have one heading northbound through Swords and linking up with one of the stations on the Dublin-Belfast line in north county Dublin or even Drogheda. They should have a southbound line linking either direct to the Dublin-Belfast line and into Connolly Station or even a new line direct to Connolly itself, though that is probably less practical. They should have one that would go out through Ballymun, in towards Broadstone, linking with a Connolly-Heuston line, and then out to Heuston Station. This would save people having to go into Connolly and change to get to Heuston/Airport as appropriate. This way Dublin Airport would have north, south and west connections. It could fit into a whole integrated system. There could also be a link right around the city, via a M50-styled rail line that I have outlined in the Luas through Trinity thread.

dowlingm

Flukey

a Drogheda-Balbriggan-Swords (all overground)-Airport-Ballymun-DCU-O'Connell Street-St. Stephen's Green service (all underground, with eventual replacement of the LUAS with underground running) would take some pressure off the Northern Line by providing an alternate routing to the city centre.

Allowing the RPA to specify European rather than DART gauge for the Airport-O'Connell Street portion would kill it before it started.

Metrobest

Flukey wrote:

The Airport should have several rail links to spread the load of just having one into the city centre. They could have one heading northbound through Swords and linking up with one of the stations on the Dublin-Belfast line in north county Dublin or even Drogheda. They should have a southbound line linking either direct to the Dublin-Belfast line and into Connolly Station or even a new line direct to Connolly itself, though that is probably less practical. They should have one that would go out through Ballymun, in towards Broadstone, linking with a Connolly-Heuston line, and then out to Heuston Station. This would save people having to go into Connolly and change to get to Heuston/Airport as appropriate. This way Dublin Airport would have north, south and west connections. It could fit into a whole integrated system. There could also be a link right around the city, via a M50-styled rail line that I have outlined in the Luas through Trinity thread.

I'm not sure the airport would have the passenger volumes neccessary to justify several rail links! One direct link should meet most needs, although linking it up past Swords to a rail station on the Northern line is an option worth considering.

Building a Luas to the airport would be absolute madness - it still would need to go underground as it approaches the city centre. The success of the green line is a fluke insofar as it follows the allignment of the old Harcourt Street railway. The on-street difficulties of the Heuston-Connolly section of the Red line should discourage planners from repeating the mistake. So, assuming a tunnel through the city centre is neccessary, which it is, it would be crazy not to go the whole hog and build a metro. There is a huge difference between trams and metros in terms of passenger volumes. The passengers volumes along the Northside corridor are there to justify metro-standard transport, not tram-standard.

Flukey

There is more than the airport's passenger volumes to consider. One link is Ok, if everyone wants to go to the same place. Of course people want to go to different places. It makes some sense then to have a link to the city centre into Connolly and Busaras and one to Heuston. Don't forget too, as with any transport route, there will be plenty of people using part of the route, so it will serve all them too. A lot of the people that use the airport buses like the 746 or 747 don't go near the airport for example. They are not exclusive to people going to or from the airport. Any new rail lines would be the same.

BuffyBot

A lot of the people that use the airport buses like the 746 or 747 don't go near the airport for example. They are not exclusive to people going to or from the airport.

The 746 maybe, but the 747 is a City-Centre -> Airport service with no intermediate drop off points..

dowlingm

Metrobest

exactly how much traffic do you want? The Northern Line is packed to the gills every morning and Dublin is heading for 20m pax p.a. and once T2 and the second runway kick off you could call that 30 if Ryanair follow through on their stated intentions with regard to based aircraft.

Heathrow has Underground, Heathrow Express and regional bus to places other than central London (have gotten the bus from T1 to Oxford myself). Dublin Airport should not depend on any single line because failure of that line would cause catastrophic traffic.

weehamster

I can see this thread finishing like every other thread involving metrobest talking about metro in a thread. So Mod's, if you are watching then you might as well close this Therad now.

Oh Ye, and where in that artical did it say the word 'Metro'?

Sarsfield

Why are there no new stations proposed within the actual city on the Kildare line.

I'm thinking in particular of Kylemore Road and/or Inchicore. There is a huge amount of housing and industry there and while it's not worthwhile having a station if trains terminate at Heuston, surely with the Interconnector, these would be viable locations for a proper city rail service.

murphaph

Sarsfield wrote:

Why are there no new stations proposed within the actual city on the Kildare line.

I'm thinking in particular of Kylemore Road and/or Inchicore. There is a huge amount of housing and industry there and while it's not worthwhile having a station if trains terminate at Heuston, surely with the Interconnector, these would be viable locations for a proper city rail service.

You're right on the money Sarsfield. IE don't propose any new stations in these areas at the moment (taking small steps to achieve a realisable goal with our esteemed departments of Transport/Finance). I would be very surprised if IE did not move to transfer the functions carried out at the Inchicore Works to Portlaoise, for example along with their new maintenance facility for the 67 CAF coaches that will be there. This would be a longer term move as there are fewer and fewer locomotives on the network with less need for heavy engine overhaul etc. Once IE are at a point where Inchicore Works can be moved, they'll redevelop the (massive) site into residential etc. and most likely a station would be located here IMHO. The land bank at the Works is huge and most of it is unused, even today. It has great potential for all sorts of applications.

SeanW

Sarsfield wrote:

Why are there no new stations proposed within the actual city on the Kildare line.

I'm thinking in particular of Kylemore Road and/or Inchicore. There is a huge amount of housing and industry there and while it's not worthwhile having a station if trains terminate at Heuston, surely with the Interconnector, these would be viable locations for a proper city rail service.

Well there's Adamstown, but thats already going ahead.

Regardless, you are right of course, the Interconnecotor would make sense the construction of a bunch of new stations near Heuston that would not have made sense (pre Interconnector/DART) anyway.

MT

Does anyone get the feeling that the whole metro thing has become this government’s equivalent of one of France’s grands projets? All the more so given the failure to build the national stadium at Blanchardstown. At some level, could it be a project aimed at boosting national prestige – giving Ireland’s capital the transport mode that’s become de rigueur in the major metropolises throughout the rest of the rich world?

If Paris, London, New York and Tokyo have one then Dublin had better have one too.

Just a thought.

Metrobest

dowlingm wrote:

Metrobest

exactly how much traffic do you want? Heathrow has Underground, Heathrow Express and regional bus .

Of projected passenger volumes on the Stephen's Green-Airport metro, only 20% would be airport-destined. The wide catchment area, complicated geography and realities of Dublin's population density would probably rule against the construction of several rail links to the airport. Heathrow is a major hub airport serving a vast and populated area in that part of England - the population of London city alone is larger than our 26-county Republic! We have to have a system that suits Dublin's needs. The best system for Dublin airport, therefore, has to be a fast, frequent and direct line into central Dublin. And whilst I am not its greatest fan, I have to be fair and give credit to the RPA where credit's due: its Stephen's Green-Airport line does fulfill these criteria for Dublin.

To weehamster: you are not prepared to use this forum for meaningful and interesting debate. All you can do is fire pot-shots at me, and appeal childishly to Victor to shut down the thread. (Why? I thought we'd moved on from the de Valera era of censorship). If you don't like what I'm saying you're entitled to express your opinions in an adult fashion.

SeanW

Metrobest I'm not sure how you can claim that a Metro link from the Airport to St. Stephens Green is E4.8 bn better than a DART link from the Airport to St Stephens Green, Spencer Dock, Pearse, Howth Junction and Heuston. The Metro, by virtue of the low number of stations proposed, has only a marginal catchment area outside the City Centre and the Airport. Sure a hospital, university, Ballymun and "Metropark" - nice but a Luas could beat that hands down.

In terms of brand-spanking new stations - which is according to you is the sole gauge of a proposal's merit, the DRP beats the Metro. Brennans final offering proposed stations at St. Stephens Green, Mater, DCU, Ballymun, and the Airport. The plan was printed in the Sunday Business Post at some stage a few months ago. Five new stations, not counting the connections to Irish Rail at Connolly and Pearse. Meanwhile the Dublin Rail Plan will provide new stations at, St. Stephens Green, High St, Spencer Dock, M1 P+R, Malahide Road and Dublin Airport. Six new stations (resulting in a bigger catchement area) not counting the connections to DART, Suburban, Intercity and International Rail at Pearse, Heuston, Howth Junction ...

And all that before we even begin to touch on how the Interconnector is vital to sort out the mess on the Dublin rail network ...

As for future proofing, all the information from Marko's excellent analysis indicates that the Metro plan was virtually cut to the bone to reduce costs. That means cuts on station fittings, and more importantly things like platform space and power substations. This would limit the Metro's capacity to 3 cars (think of it as 1 1/2 Green Line trams) Future proof Fewer substations means that running more or longer trains in future could not be supported by the power system. I could see this system being a victim of its own success in about 10 years time, max.

or maybe not, as efforts appear to have been taken to reduce or eliminate integration with Irish Rail. Like the 1435mm gauge (which would prevent any line from going from DART to Metro or Metro to DART in the future, and that Platform 11s excellent proposal for an interchange at Glasnevin Junction was ignored "on cost grounds" Not cool. Marko knows more than I do about the Metro planned lack of integration with the rest of the network.

You said you could pick 1000 holes in Mr Gleeson's report .. but you couldn't be bothered, didn't have time or whatever it was. If you expect us to take you seriously, then bother.

Metrobest

Sean W (P11) I've already gone into the metro report in some detail in a thread titled 'Rail Interconnector'. That thread has been locked. Marko's report was based purely on hearsay and hyperbole, and sheer speculation. None of us can claim to be experts when we're not privy to the requisite information. But at least the report is clear about one thing: cost. And that is €1.2bn to build the line, not the very speculative and entirely misleading figure of €4.8bn P11 keeps repeating. You seem to think that if you repeat that figure often enough the mud will stick. The politicians know otherwise.

You do your argument no favour by revealing that you believe everything that's written in the newspapers. There are at least ten different versions of the metro, depending on which newspaper you read. As far as the interconnector goes, there is also much speculation and hyperbole; for example the tunnel is consistently being touted as running from Heuston-Connolly. I suspect a lot of these stories are being written by Lunchtime O'Boozes.

MarkoP11

For reference here is the map of the interconnector route from IE,


@copyright Iarnrod Eireann 2004 it is in the public domain just a case of knowning where to find it

invincibleirish

to improve Ireland's road and rail network over the next 10 years.

any word on whats in this plan for outside the greater dublin area (and specifically my own area of cork) or do we now have different opinions on what constitutes irelands road and rail network these days?

MarkoP11

invincibleirish wrote:

any word on whats in this plan for outside the greater dublin area (and specifically my own area of cork) or do we now have different opinions on what constitutes irelands road and rail network these days?

The Middleton line in Cork and the CASP project to improve suburban rail services in Cork are also going ahead

It is highly probable that the Ennis Athenry section will be reopened thus providing Limerick Galway services, possibly Galway Cork

The Kildare 4 track project in Dublin will lead to reductions in journey times on services to Westport, Galway, Limerick Tralee and Cork as well as reductions in delays casued by slow moving suburban trains. It will also allow an increase in frequency on all radial intercity routes. The DRP will make access to Heuston so much easier thus makeing it easy to get into the city.

Despite what some people may say investment in Dublin's rail network will have significant positive effects on rail services all over the country

invincibleirish

The Middleton line in Cork and the CASP project to improve suburban rail services in Cork are also going ahead

obviously good stuff but i was under illusion that the funding for these was already in place

It is highly probable that the Ennis Athenry section will be reopened thus providing Limerick Galway services, possibly Galway Cork

also good stuff especially possibility of cork-galway via limerick, i dont know the numbers but im sure as anyone who has taken the 51 bus (cork-galway via limerick) can agree surely there is more then sufficient numbers to justify a rail service between the two cities (and finally give justification to irish rails brand of "intercity")

BrianD

MarkoP11 wrote:

It is highly probable that the Ennis Athenry section will be reopened thus providing Limerick Galway services, possibly Galway Cork

Isn't this where they recently removed the junction connecting it to the Galway-Dublin line?

SeanW

Metrobest wrote:

Sean W (P11) I've already gone into the metro report in some detail in a thread titled 'Rail Interconnector'.

Fair enough, I'll have a look at it.

Marko's report was based purely on hearsay and hyperbole, and sheer speculation

because the RPA treated so much information as "commercially sensitive"

None of us can claim to be experts when we're not privy to the requisite information

So how can you claim the Metro is so great when the RPA wont tell you certain things? With the Dublin Rail Plan, its all on the table.

But at least the report is clear about one thing: cost. And that is €1.2bn to build the line, not the very speculative and entirely misleading figure of €4.8bn P11 keeps repeating.

E4.8bn was the initial figure AFAIK.

You seem to think that if you repeat that "Metro-is-Best" line often enough the mud will stick. The people/politicians are starting to learn otherwise.

You do your argument no favour by revealing that you believe everything that's written in the newspapers. There are at least ten different versions of the metro, depending on which newspaper you read.

Because nothing is certain, the RPA seem to still be waffling over the final route, and in relation to Glasnevin Junction, you probably know that a passenger train from the Junction could get to just about anywhere in Ireland without reversing (except the Northern Line). In other words, Glasnevin Junction is a potential goldmine of integration. Platform 11 suggested that the Metro have a stop or at least go through this junction. Yet to save a few million, the suggestion was ignored despite the fact that the Metro would be going within a few hundred metres of the place anyway.

As far as the interconnector goes, there is also much speculation and hyperbole; for example the tunnel is consistently being touted as running from Heuston-Connolly.

Don't blame Irish Rail, when they have discussed the Interconnector they made the plan and its benefits very clear.

I suspect a lot of these stories are being written by Lunchtime O'Boozes.

The Interconnector has been a slight victim of sloppy journalism no doubt. That the Interconnector runs from Heuston to Connolly is an urban legend right up there with the Luas lines having been built to 2 different guages. However anyone who actually printed a map of either the Metro or the Interconector, largely got it right, as the Indo did with the Interconnecotr in June last year. The 5 new stations article I'm talking about also had a map. So I presume the journalists behind some of these articles acutally bothered to do their homework.

The article I'm refering to can be found here.

SeanW

BrianD wrote:

Isn't this where they recently removed the junction connecting it to the Galway-Dublin line?

Not quite. The connection to Tuam and Sligo was cut at Athenry, but the line to Ennis is still live.

MarkoP11

BrianD wrote:

Isn't this where they recently removed the junction connecting it to the Galway-Dublin line?

Nope line is open for engineering trains only and is connected at both Athenry and Ennis, the section north to Tuam is disconnected that said the signalling equipment can accomidate its reconnection.

Though it not in any plan suburban services in Galway are likely to improve as are those in Limerick. A lot of modern rolling stock will be transfered out of Dublin as the Dart expands boosting services. I can here the howls of complaint already but what would you rather nothing or a 5-8 year old proven reliable railcar ?

Victor

Stop sniping at Metrobest.

Metrobest, stop whinging. Just look at your name, you bring it on yourself.

weehamster

To weehamster: you are not prepared to use this forum for meaningful and interesting debate. All you can do is fire pot-shots at me, and appeal childishly to Victor to shut down the thread. (Why? I thought we'd moved on from the de Valera era of censorship). If you don't like what I'm saying you're entitled to express your opinions in an adult fashion.

Sorry for the late reply, had a good weekend .
Right back to this.

I dont give anymore 'meaningful and interesting debate' with you on this subject as Im sick and tired going over the same things again and again with you and this has been going on since you've joined this forum back in Aug 2004 and previous to that when you were on the P11 forum.

And I asked Victor to closed this thead, as previous therads HAD been forced to be closed as it has gone out of hand. And this one appears to be heading in that same direction.

And yes I do not like what you say in regards the metro and this is not against you as you have made good and interesting points about other subjects, just not this one.

And by the way, you didnt answer my question. Where did it say 'metro' in that artical. It didnt. So why did you add 'metro' to it to appear that the artical was talking about it.

Right. This is the last time Im ever talking about the RPA metro on this fourm (which some might be glad to hear). Its dead and it doesnt deserve any more time talking about it.

And Sorry about this Victor.

Metrobest

Victor, my username is an expression of my core principle: that a metro system is best: superior to DART, bus, tram, monorail, rollercoaster etc etc etc. I also happen to think cycling is brilliant and I've enthused about that on other threads. I happen to think that Dublin can learn a lot from other European cities, especially Amsterdam, and again, this is a theme I like to explore.

Hamster, I headlined the thread 'speculation' because there seems to be an awful lot of speculation - about everything - and little definate fact. Relevent and interesting debate should not be 'dead' or 'closed down'; it should be encouraged.

And there is plenty to debate about the RPA-planned metro so I hope other people will contribute, especially those who are neutral about the Leinster Rail Plan (DRP). Incidentally, I am not the Airport metro's biggest fan - I've already told the forum on several occasions that I feel the best option for a city of Dublin's size is a truly 'metropolitan' metro serving the inner suburbs in the single-digit postcode areas. I believe public transport is as much about quality of life as cost, so cost should not be used as a reason to rule against projects. What forced me into a corner of defending the RPA metro was that I felt Marko's report was not a fair assessment on the RPA metro: especially with regards to costs and issues such as escalators. I stand by what I posted in the 'rail interconnector' thread on those matters. I also stand by my opinion that the Interconnector tunnel between Heuston and Connolly represents a missed opportunity: (1) because the route is not the right route for many existing passengers (2) because the inner suburbs of metropolitan Dublin will continue to be car congested (3) becase a TBM in the centre of Dublin should be used more efficiently (4) because the costs of a metro to the airport compare extremely favourably with the projected cost of Irish Rail's tunnel and there must be other ways to solve the Connolly bottleneck (5) I have little confidence in Irish Rail management's ability to deliver such a project on time and on budget.

Only time will tell which project(s) are given the go-ahead. And only time will tell if the DRP lives up to its promise.

hawkmoon269

invincibleirish wrote:

any word on whats in this plan for outside the greater dublin area (and specifically my own area of cork) or do we now have different opinions on what constitutes irelands road and rail network these days?

In spite of the recent, and welcome, opening of the two Luas Lines in Dublin, the city is still seriously under-serviced by light rail/rail compared with other European cities of similar population. That isn't really the case, at least not to the same extent, if you compare Cork city with equivalent sized European cities.

If you're going to argue for a light rail for Cork, fine, I'd probably agree with you, but let's not pretend that Cork city's transport problems should be prioritised as high as Dublin's, because frankly, they shouldn't.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

I have little confidence in Irish Rail management's ability to deliver such a project on time and on budget.

That shows just how little you know about the history of rail in Ireland. IE have a history of delivering large projects on time and under budget. The DART was one and you'll see this again with the Kildare Route Project, wait and see. You think the RPA would do a better job, given that the Luas overran by hundreds of millions and many many months?

invincibleirish

In spite of the recent, and welcome, opening of the two Luas Lines in Dublin, the city is still seriously under-serviced by light rail/rail compared with other European cities of similar population. That isn't really the case, at least not to the same extent, if you compare Cork city with equivalent sized European cities. If you're going to argue for a light rail for Cork, fine, I'd probably agree with you, but let's not pretend that Cork city's transport problems should be prioritised as high as Dublin's, because frankly, they shouldn't.

erm, i dont think i made any mention about light rail, all i wanted to know, was as the plan concerns irelands road and rail network, what was in store for the rest of the country (particularly my home area) as what had been mentioned so far had only been GDA related, but hey as im here then why not, light rail for cork it is, bt of course only after dublin gets everything it needs (circa 2050).does dublin have to get completely fixed before we can even dare call for state funding for our own infrastructural funding? god i wish the nss was taken seriously.....

murphaph

invincibleirish wrote:

...god i wish the nss was taken seriously.....

Ah, the NSS, brought to you by the same 'government' that brought you rural one-off housing. They don't know what they want other than hanging on in there at the next election. You're dead right mate, the NSS would be great if it was implemented in full.

I believe in CITIES, like the Babylonians, Greeks and Romans did before us. Were they all wrong? Are we right here in Ireland to colonise every 1/3 of an acre with road frontage in county Cavan for Dublin commuters to build 3000 sq feet houses on? Of course not. Cities like Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway should be reinforced, made higher density and have funding directed at them. Rural areas should remain rural. Why the hell should us city dwellers who have maybe 5 metres of road per capita to maintain, have to subsidise people who want to live a mile from a main road down some pothole filled boreen, only to whinge about the roads being in bad nick. It's the countryside stupid!!

Anybody else see that muppet Eamon O'Cuiv on Q&A last night?

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Cities like Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway should be reinforced, made higher density and have funding directed at them.

The EU 'standard' for "city" is 200,000. Cork, Limerick and Galway aren't exactly metropolises.

Why the hell should us city dwellers who have maybe 5 metres of road per capita to maintain

Indeed. Even the agriculture argument is weak .

Dublin 2.7m/capita
Ireland 25m/capita

Lorcan26

close the thread! all the discussion about DRP and Metro drives my head in! same stuff over and over again! i really dont see the need for all the anger! argh...

SeanW

Metrobest wrote:

Victor, my username is an expression of my core principle: that a metro system is best:

The Metro is best only if the specifications are right, which I don't think they are now. The Metro is also only best it the area cannot be well served by DART. In terms of getting people from the Airport into the city/St. Stephens Green and the main train stations, Metro-certainly-ain't-best.

As it stands the only real advantage of the Metro plan is 3 min frequency as opposed to 5-10.

Hamster, I headlined the thread 'speculation' because there seems to be an awful lot of speculation - about everything - and little definate fact.

All will become clear with the publication of the 10 year plan

Relevent and interesting debate should not be 'dead' or 'closed down'; it should be encouraged.

Yes, lets make a dedicated thread for this repetitivediscussion.

Incidentally, I am not the Airport metro's biggest fan - I've already told the forum on several occasions that I feel the best option for a city of Dublin's size is a truly 'metropolitan' metro serving the inner suburbs in the single-digit postcode areas.

Good, point. With the Interconnector, and the Dublin Airport Spur, which could be extended to Swords, I've always felt that the first stage of the Metro should go somewhere else. Like Tallaght, or Blanchardstown, or indeed a line to Jim Mansfield's Citywest and get him to pay for it

I believe public transport is as much about quality of life as cost, so cost should not be used as a reason to rule against projects.

Cost SHOULD be used as a reason to rule against a project when it is staggering and threatens to consume an entire budget. The entire Dublin Rail Plan costs less than the orginal estimate for the Metro, and the DRP is incremental, whereas Metro shows nothing until the whole money is spent/construction complete.

What forced me into a corner of defending the RPA metro

And it is a corner because the RPA proposal is indefensible.

(1) because the route is not the right route for many existing passengers

You mean it doesnt go to the Spire and the GPO?

(2) because the inner suburbs of metropolitan Dublin will continue to be car congested

Most of the cars coming into the city are from outside the city. So the DRP will do something BIG about that. Plus, Irish Rail has made clear that their plan won't solve all the problems, and that they expect their rail plan to be complemented by more Luas and Metro. No-one said the DRP has all the answers, it just has the bulk of them.

(3) becase a TBM in the centre of Dublin should be used more efficiently

Both Heuston and Spencer Dock have significant wasteland leftover from old freight yards no longer used etc, where you could dig a shaft into which the TBM can be lowered. It doesn't get much more efficient than that.

St. Stephens Green does not, unless you proposed destroying the park?

(4) because the costs of a metro to the airport compare extremely favourably with the projected cost of Irish Rail's tunnel

Maybe on Planet Zog ...

and there must be other ways to solve the Connolly bottleneck

Not really. The Connolly bottleneck isnt the only problem: city centre termination of trains is another biggie - it causes conflicts and chaos as bunches of trains cross each other's paths getting in and out of terminal platforms - much more so than reversals outside the city, as in the case of Maynooth, Kildare, Howth, Dorgheda etc

(5) I have little confidence in Irish Rail management's ability to deliver such a project on time and on budget.

Which shows you have little understanding of the situation: Irish Rail/CIE comes from a culture of HAVING to get it right: becuase in the past if the railway ran overbudget, that was it: a project would have to be scrapped or a line closed. When the mini CTC project became a mess, we had a full-blown inquiry, yet the NRA goes out over projection by billions of Euro and delivers projects years late and no-one bats an eyelid. Even the RPA can deliver a Luas years late and 3 times the budget - no biggie. Irish Rail comes from a culture where this would have been unimaginable.As has been stated before, Irish Rail has largely got its projects right, the original DART project, rolling stock procurement, DASH resignallings, On Track 2000 ...

Only time will tell which project(s) are given the go-ahead. And only time will tell if the DRP lives up to its promise.

It will ...

The Interconnector is the Answer

Victor

SeanW wrote:

or indeed a line to Jim Mansfield's Citywest and get him to pay for it

And getting him to pay will be the nut of the problem

invincibleirish

Victor wrote:

The EU 'standard' for "city" is 200,000. Cork, Limerick and Galway aren't exactly metropolises.Indeed. Even the agriculture argument is weak .

Dublin 2.7m/capita
Ireland 25m/capita

hence the national spatial strategy, to build up these cities as counter weights to Dublin, it wouldnt kill the gov. on things like to locate departments in cork or galway and try and focus some bit of investment to these areas beside what they already need, however at the moment its just a case of focus on Dublin at the ignoring of the regional capitals, its not healthy for the nation to turn into one giant commuter belt for Dublin city.

btw if Cork expanded its city boundaries it would surpass the 200,000 mark, it does not need it to as it co-operates quite well with Cork co.co., together they define the area as "metropolitan Cork" which has a population of 250,000.

PandaMania

"hence the national spatial strategy, to build up these cities as counter weights to Dublin"

The county councils outside the Pale are all in favour of one off housing over building up their towns and cities. The west of Ireland is anticity and pro pink bungalow in the middle of nowhere.

SeanW

PandaMania wrote:

"hence the national spatial strategy, to build up these cities as counter weights to Dublin"

The county councils outside the Pale are all in favour of one off housing over building up their towns and cities. The west of Ireland is anticity and pro pink bungalow in the middle of nowhere.

Which is why nutty white elephant schemes like the Northen end of the Western Rail Corridor will never work.

ishmael whale

invincibleirish wrote:

..... at the moment its just a case of focus on Dublin at the ignoring of the regional capitals, its not healthy for the nation to turn into one giant commuter belt for Dublin city.....

At the moment its just a case of Dublin's urgent need for infrastructure finally being addressed after years of resources being diverted to the regions. Don't confuse discussion with actuality. There's a lot of discussion about the need to develop public transport in Dublin, but very little has been done compared to what needs to be done. Luas is a ridiculous little toy that only gets custom because of the utter inadequacy of the alternatives. (and, for all the fact of it being poor value for money, its per passenger cost is only a fraction of the upgraded Limerick Ennis service.)

Cork's problem is not the overdue investment in Dublin. Cork's problem is the continuation of the policy of scattering resources all over the regions instead of concentrating them in the centres most likely to develop. If you truly want to see regional development you'd be better to take after things like the Western Rail Corridor, the Shannon Stopover (which is an obstacle to Cork developing a transatlantic service), the nutty decentralisation programme, the one-off housing fiasco etc etc.

Cork isn't competing with Dublin, although one day it might. Cork is competing with Nenagh, Thomastown, Claremorris, Letterkenny and an array of smaller towns that think they should have the same priority as Cork. They shouldn't, and that's the case that needs to be made but rarely is. We don't need to divert resources from Dublin - we already have and do in spades. What we need to do is concentrate resources in the regions so that it achieves some results.

Victor

invincibleirish wrote:

btw if Cork expanded its city boundaries it would surpass the 200,000 mark, it does not need it to as it co-operates quite well with Cork co.co., together they define the area as "metropolitan Cork" which has a population of 250,000.

No. Cork City has a population of 123,000. Add Ballincollig, Togher, Douglas & Glanmire, etc. and you get 180,000. You need to venture to Passage West, Carrigaline, Cobh, Carrigtwohill, etc. (**not** part of the city), to take it over 200,000.

PandaMania

"Cork isn't competing with Dublin, although one day it might. Cork is competing with Nenagh, Thomastown, Claremorris, Letterkenny and an array of smaller towns that think they should have the same priority as Cork. They shouldn't, and that's the case that needs to be made but rarely is."

Very well stated indeed.

Metrobest

SeanW wrote:

Irish Rail/CIE comes from a culture of HAVING to get it right: becuase in the past if the railway ran overbudget, that was it: a project would have to be scrapped or a line closed. When the mini CTC project became a mess, we had a full-blown inquiry, yet the NRA goes out over projection by billions of Euro and delivers projects years late and no-one bats an eyelid. Even the RPA can deliver a Luas years late and 3 times the budget - no biggie. Irish Rail comes from a culture where this would have been unimaginable.As has been stated before, Irish Rail has largely got its projects right, the original DART project, rolling stock procurement, DASH resignallings, On Track 2000 ...

It sounds like you're trying to rewrite history when you talk about CIE's management of large projects! Firstly, it is not fair to blame the RPA for cost overruns of the Luas. Secondly, a lot of the Luas negativity was political: for example Charlie McCreevy withheld some of the budget one year, which meant construction got delayed. The RPA was set up to replace the CIE Light Rail Project Office which had been making a complete mess of the whole project. In fact, *whisper it quietly* , the RPA arguably saved the Luas from turning into a complete shambles.

Before the Luas came into operation you could barely open a newspaper without reading some piece of poison: we were told that the lines were incompatible, that the cost was going to ruin the economy.. and guess what? It was all wrong. The Luas has turned out to be a roaring success, and now you can barely open a newspaper without reading about the 'silver bullets' as shiny pictures of trams festoon the property pages. History is repeating itself with the metro. It's all 'look at the cost' and no 'think of the benefits it will bring'. The fact is, we can afford a metro and we need one. Unfortunately for the metro, it is not lucky enough to have a lobby group fighting its cause!

Irish Rail comes from a culture of handouts and subsidies. A culture of 'do nothing'. The fact that Platform 11's homepage has five "quick and easy fixes" which require nothing more than efficiency and good management shows the very basic things that Irish Rail has managed to bungle, and continues to bungle. Even the relatively simple DART upgrade has been handled with spectacular ineptitude: closing down the Southside line twice because of a basic planning oversight. Irish Rail runs the railway network with typical taxpayer-sponsored incompetence. It knows it can continue to screw the taxpayer because that's one of the few things semi-state companies are good at. Does anyone really believe this semi-state monopoly can deliver the promises of Dublin Rail Plan? I, for one, don't.

enterprise

Victor wrote:

No. Cork City has a population of 123,000. Add Ballincollig, Togher, Douglas & Glanmire, etc. and you get 180,000. You need to venture to Passage West, Carrigaline, Cobh, Carrigtwohill, etc. (**not** part of the city), to take it over 200,000.

Add in Little Island, Glounthaune, Carrightwohill and Midleton to add it up further. Has anybody ever witnessed the volume of traffic heading out along the N25 dual-carriageway in the peak hours.

With the Midleton line *due* to reopen in 2007 with a peak hour frequency of 4 trains per hour (tph) which was recommended in the report and I assume Cobh will get the same you have the prospect of 8 tph from Glounthaune, Littleisland, Dunkettle into the City. Makes a big change from the 1 tph when I worked out there for a few years.

The Midleton is badly needly for that region of East Cork. However it isn't enough I think Cork city council should be looking into the possibility of a LRT tram system from the Rail Station - City Centre - Western Road - Bishopstown - Wilton S.C. and then out to the Airport. Maybe also put a branch on out to Ballincollig.

enterprise

Metrobest, it seems you have been staying in the bright lights of Amsterdam for to long.

Some of the projects which IE have brought in on time and on / UNDER budget.

On Track 2000

Heuston re-development.

Maynooth line upgrade.

Drogheda service depot.

Introduction of 80 commuter carriages in 2003 and 2004.

Mini-CTC Project - ok when this first got underway it was a complete mess. But when IE brought it back in house, they knuckled down and got on with the job. It is now delivering results with Galway, Waterford and Tralee complete with Sligo complete later this year.

The DART Upgrade is on time and the reason they are going back to the southside to complete the work, from what I can gather is due to delays from planning objections. That can happen anywhere.

With regards to the Metro, let me place my cards on the table. For the record I believe Dublin does need a Metro, but not the one the RPA is currently trying to give us. The metro I believe Dublin should have is something along the lines of that proposed by the DTO in their "Platform for change" document , with modifications to it.

With the DRP we know whats on the table, the routes, level of service, the benefits and the cost of the entire plan. This is in no small part to the campaigning that IE has done to the DoT, Local Politicians / Councillors and the public lectures given by Joe Meagher MD of IE to the IEI and CITL

What concrete plans do we do about with the RPA Metro? None it seems, where is the line going to terminate in the City Centre? What route would the line take? What intergation will it have? How much will the total project cost? It seems to me that the RPA has stuck its head in the sand just wishing everyone would go away and the storm will blow over!

The benefits the DRP brings are enormous. Imagine getting on a 90mph electric train at Kildare (I won't call it a DART for now as it should have better comfort and a higher top speed - SuperDART anyone?) and travelling to Drogheda. No changing trains onto a Tram or a Bus at Heuston and Connolly, just get on at Kildare, on the approach to Heuston dive undergroud, travel underneath the heart of Dublin City out into the redeveloped Docklands, our very own Canary Wharf and out onto the Northern line to Drogheda.

Thats just one of the many benefits the DRP gives us along with DART type railways to the Airport and Maynooth and a spur to Dunboyne.

Imagine, just imagine what sort of DART / Commuter rail network we would have by 2013 if the "Interconnector" was built.

Think of it this way the DRP should be considered along the lines of the RER network in Paris, lets get this built and then concentrate on building a proper metro for the Inner Dublin area, not the micky mouse one being pushed by the RPA.

If anybody wishes to take a look at the IEI lecture slides then please click on the link below:

http://www.iei.ie/sectorpapers/GetSectorPaperDetails.pasp?SectorPaperId=25&MenuID=7

murphaph

Excellent post Enterprise. People need to know that IE do indeed have a long history of getting things done on a shoesrting budget, not grandiose handouts for projects.

By the way metrobest, the CIE light rail office did most of the legwork for the Luas. (as they actually had proper railway engineers working for them, unlike the RPA who contract everything to Alstom etc.) Mary O'Rourke (fool) took it from them for fear that if CIE ran it also, they would continue to dominate PT and strikes would ground the city. Purely political decsision, not based on engineering ability at all.

You'll see in a couple of years when the Kildare Route Project is complete, another success by the IE PW (Permanent way) Dept.

Comparing IE's ability to get basic customer service right (which they frequently do not) with their ability to deliver heavy engineering works is like comparing apples with oranges-the ignorant ticket seller who can't be sacked doesn't run a quad tracking programme or signal upgrade!

You need to be able to see things in shades of grey metrobest. It's not all black and white in real life. Metro is not always best (look at Zurich), however I also believe that we could do with starting one, a proper one, not the RPA nonsense.

MarkoP11

enterprise wrote:

Metrobest, it seems you have been staying in the bright lights of Amsterdam for to long.

Some of the projects which IE have brought in on time and on / UNDER budget.

The DART project was 3.3% under budget in real terms it was more or less on time, not bad considering it was the first electric railway in Ireland and it was done in house

Heuston was under budget too

On the DASH works An Tasice have been incredibly persistent with objections and it takes 6 months to deal with those through the planning appeals process not IE's fault, the inital applications where lodged in May 2003 4 months in advance of the start

SeanW

It sounds like you're trying to rewrite history when you talk about CIE's management of large projects!

Yeah ... its Irish Rail that had to bring in Spanish professors as consultants every five minutes to learn how to get costs under control ... Sure. Like I said, maybe on Planet Zog. Or Amsterdam.

If the original DART had gone over budget by even £1, or any other project, it would probably have become a mess or been scrapped. You're forgetting that for many years, CIE/IE were expected to string every penny along for a mile, they got only basic funding for day-to-day operations, and investments, where made, were usually only to prevent the government from facing mass wrongful death lawsuits, like the purchase of the Mark 3 coaches after Buttevant where many people needlessly died because old wooden coaches were used on a badly neglected Permanent Way. Or indeed the DART, a complete overhaul after a string of messy accidents on what was then the Coastal Suburban Railway. You shouldn't expect high quality serivces when the operator is only being paid the bare minimum to prevent repeated large-scale casualties. But that's what's happened with Irish Rail.

The RPA does not come from this culture. Of course the nub of the matter is that neither does the NRA, because neither this government nor the useless opposition ever questions the billions upon billions spent on roads - often uselessly.

Irish Rail has got most of its projects right in the past, the original DART (world class standard) Ontrack 2000, DASH works (mainly) plus most stock procurements. Mini-CTC only went so wrong because of the way it started as a Lowry/Esat mess.

I was unaware of An Taisce's interference, but when a well funded quango decides to object to and obstruct your every move, it shows just how well Irish Rail has performed to get these DASH projects in without it all becoming a total fiasco.

The fact remains that there is only a limited budget for Public Transport, and indeed not all of this can go to Dublin. So its imerpitive that this limited budget is used in a way that delivers the max. "bang for your buck." The Luas did this, sort of. The DRP and the Interconnector will do this big time. There is no other way to sort out the Connolly bottleneck. There is no other way to facilitate the expansion of the DART. There is no other way to increase frequencies of trains all over the network. There is no other way to alleviate the insane levels of crush loading on some peak-hour trains today. There is no other way to connect everything-to-everything-else in such an effective manner. There is no way to future-proof the transportation system the way the Interconnector does. With the rest of the DRP in place there is no other way to serve the Airport so efficiently as with the DART Spur

Maybe you should change your name to Metrobust.

PandaMania

I think the problem is that Metrobest is confusing the worst elements of the CIE-Union jobsworths who collect tickets at stations and so forth with the professional and highly qualified engineers and project managers within IE. This would be akin to declaring that Burger King is a totally failed corporation because of the spotty teenagers behind the counter got your order wrong.