Mothers milk

Khannie

I wonder something:

Humans need Vitamin C. Is it provided for in breast milk? If so, and it's an acid, it would need to be in a liquid that is mildly acidic (is that right?). Does calcium react with it? Is there calcium in breast milk?

Is human milk very different from cows milk?

Pass on the details if you have them please

DrIndy

Breast milk contains absolutely everything a baby needs and this includes Vitamin C. However, the amount that is needed is very small and thus the acid effect of this is very little. There are many other proteins and other acides there too which all buffer each other out and this results in the near normal pH of breast milk.

There is loads of calcium in breast milk - and once again, it is the perfect proportions and amounts that a baby needs as it is growing.

Breast milk also changes in its contents over time as the baby grows and that is why initially, milk is yellower and is called colostrum which then becomes the whiter milk.

It does not react with the calcium as once again, breast milk is buffered with other proteins and also the calcium content is not actually high enough to precipitate.

Just about the only thing that breast milk does not contain is Iron, but a baby has 6 months of storage of iron and thus doesn't need any more - you should start introducing new foods at the correct time for weaning.

Cows milk is phenomenally different from human milk, to such an extent that feeding unrefined cows milk to a young baby can cause very serious harm.

The feeding bottles you buy or make up are "humanised" cows milk that has been changed to be more digestible. There is a very different balance between whey/curd ratio between cows milk and human milk and the mineral/vitamin balance is different too.

Human milk also very importantly contains immunoglobulins which protect a baby from infections until they are old enough to develop their own immune system.

Cows milk is designed to nourish a calf and does so very well, human milk is designed for a baby and does so phenomenally well. The two are not directly interchangeable however.

Always breastfeed a baby, its good for the mum and good for the baby.

There is evidence that mothers with diabetes improve if they breastfeed and there is also data that breastfed babies have a lower incidence of heart disease and high blood pressure when they grow up.

Capt'n Midnight

Vitamin C isn't very acidic, you can go into Boots and buy it in power form, put a quarter of teaspoon in some water and it's quite tangy. It's also a chelating agent BTW.

GuanYin

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Vitamin C isn't very acidic, you can go into Boots and buy it in power form, put a quarter of teaspoon in some water and it's quite tangy. It's also a chelating agent BTW.

As usual Google lets you down.

Its its natural state Ascorbic Acid (Vit C)has a pH of 2.1.

Please refrain from spamming the forum with googled nonsense.

DrIndy

Remember that every body fluid is buffered by proteins, chloride, phosphate and bicarbonate ions - thus the pH of the PURE substance has absolutly no bearing on the pH in a buffered fluid such as breast milk.

Here's a link -

http://www.cw.bc.ca/pediatricresidents/brstmilk.asp

The key points here are 80%/20% curds/whey ratio compared to human milk with 60%/40% and that is important. this is why cows milk is altered to be humanised before being given in a formula.

This is an interesting quote:

"Breast milk fed babies have less gastroenteritis, necrotizing enterocolitis, neonatal sepsis, and otitis media compared to formula fed babies and may be at lower risk for immunologically based disease such as type I diabetes and Crohns. Breast fed babies have slightly higher IQs on testing. Initial growth on formula or on breast milk is equivalent up to four months of age. After 6 months, formula fed babies tend to weigh more and have more fat than breast fed babies. Breast feeding does not influence later manifestations of allergy or atopy."

GuanYin

DrIndy wrote:

Remember that every body fluid is buffered by proteins, chloride, phosphate and bicarbonate ions - thus the pH of the PURE substance has absolutly no bearing on the pH in a buffered fluid such as breast milk.

But high Vitamin C in breast milk actually can act to reduce the buffering capacity which in turn can have unwanted consequences. You should know this at your stage

DrIndy

psi wrote:

But high Vitamin C in breast milk actually can act to reduce the buffering capacity which in turn can have unwanted consequences. You should know this at your stage

The homeostasis mechanisms making breast milk are tightly regulated, so although a mother may have a high vit c intake, the amount being transferred to the milk would be kept constant anyway.

In general, blood acid levels (acidosis) would have to be present in the mum long before it would affect the breast milk and this would make her very sick.

A change of even 0.10 in blood pH will make you sick and a change of 0.20 would make you very sick.....

There is no effect on breast milk.......

However, interesting fact, taking too much vitamin C gives you diaorrhea!

GuanYin

Khannie wrote:

I wonder something:

Humans need Vitamin C. Is it provided for in breast milk? If so, and it's an acid, it would need to be in a liquid that is mildly acidic (is that right?). Does calcium react with it? Is there calcium in breast milk?

Is human milk very different from cows milk?

Pass on the details if you have them please

The main nutrient differences between Breast and Cows milk are with Vitamins A and D and Choline (roughly twice as much in Breast milk), Vitamin C (roughly 4 times as much in Breast milk), Riboflavin (roughly 4 times as much in Cows milk. There are differences in most of the other important nutrients, except, intrestngly, Folate.

Of course, the major difference is colostral IgG which is same species dependant for suclking/breast feeding young.

GuanYin

DrIndy wrote:

The homeostasis mechanisms making breast milk are tightly regulated, so although a mother may have a high vit c intake, the amount being transferred to the milk would be kept constant anyway.

In general, blood acid levels (acidosis) would have to be present in the mum long before it would affect the breast milk and this would make her very sick.

A change of even 0.10 in blood pH will make you sick and a change of 0.20 would make you very sick.....

There is no effect on breast milk.......

However, interesting fact, taking too much vitamin C gives you diaorrhea!

Nutritionally, maternal vitamin C intake won't effect breast milk, however, other factors leadingto high vitamin C contentin breast milk will effect the buffering capacity of the milk which *Can* lead to infant kidney damage.

Capt'n Midnight

psi wrote:

As usual Google lets you down.

Its its natural state Ascorbic Acid (Vit C)has a pH of 2.1.

Please refrain from spamming the forum with googled nonsense.

You forgot to add an IMHO there

And you can get in Boots and it does dissolve much better in warm water than cold and it does taste tangy but no obvious hint of black wallpaper fungus.

The ph of 2.1 - what concentration is that for ?
since in it's natural state it usually mixed in with other stuff.

And it is a chelating agent, IIRC one of the lads I was working with was using it to try to keep some solids in suspension in Calf feed, or it might have been another chealating agent - twas a long time ago..

And one of the main nutritional differences tween bovine and human milk is the fat content, just ask Nestle.

DrIndy

psi wrote:

Nutritionally, maternal vitamin C intake won't effect breast milk, however, other factors leadingto high vitamin C contentin breast milk will effect the buffering capacity of the milk which *Can* lead to infant kidney damage.

I'm interested in this as I did a pubmed search on that and found no data.

Search string: "vitamin c breast milk renal" and "vitamin c breast milk kidney"

If you have any papers, I would be very interested in reading them.

I would be surprised if it were so as breast milk, like any other body system, a very tightly controlled function and would never allow toxic levels of natural substances to occur.

This issue may only affect babies who receive too much vitamin C in formula feeds by overzealous preparation.

GuanYin

DrIndy wrote:

I'm interested in this as I did a pubmed search on that and found no data.

Search string: "vitamin c breast milk renal" and "vitamin c breast milk kidney"

If you have any papers, I would be very interested in reading them.

I would be surprised if it were so as breast milk, like any other body system, a very tightly controlled function and would never allow toxic levels of natural substances to occur.

This issue may only affect babies who receive too much vitamin C in formula feeds by overzealous preparation.

There was medicine before pubmed ya know

Try Dettmann (sp?) from the early 70's.

Bates (early 80's) showed that vitamin c in breast milk was regulated and the other evidence suggests (mostly non-published clinical anecdotes, but I'm sure if you go back the 70's/80's you'll find that) that there are conditions of regulatory dysfunction published.

Khannie

Ok, first off, thanks for all the comprehensive replies.

I'm still mildly confused though.....I don't quite understand how the acid in vitamin C doesn't react with any other base elements.

Let me put it this way: Say I drink a glass of cows milk and a glass of orange juice at the same time, Do I get any vitamin C? Or does it react in some way? (I know that's a chemistry question, but it's too late to move this puppy )

I ask (at least partially) because I noticed no mention of vitamin C on the carton of some "calcium enriched" orange juice that I bought a while ago. My limited understanding put that down to "acid + base = salt + water". There was mention of other vitamins though.

DrIndy

(on an aside - I am enjoying this scientific debate! )

I have difficulty accepting that toxic levels of vitamin C are possible in breast milk - although I do not doubt that in extreme or very rare cases it *may* be possible. I have not been able to find any scientific information which would support this - but would love to see the papers concerned. Vitamin C is also water soluble, unlike fat soluble vitamins such as A,D,E,K and thus very easy to excrete excess amounts.

Regarding vitamin C and milk - remember that these do not precipitate, but merely exist in solution - therefore although they balance each other theoretically in pH, because they are dissociated in solution, they are very easy to absorb and use. Remember also there are also other buffers that separate ions and only ingesting something like calcium carbonate or magnesium sulphate (which binds strongly) results in zero absorption. It is not correct to think that milk ONLY contains calcium or that orange juice ONLY contains vitamin C. The proteins and other ions contained in both are significant in maintaining both in a dissolved state.

Let me put it this way: Say I drink a glass of cows milk and a glass of orange juice at the same time, Do I get any vitamin C? Or does it react in some way? (I know that's a chemistry question, but it's too late to move this puppy )

Yes, you do, absolutely. No it does not react in such a way to significantly reduce absorption. In fact taking vitamin C enhances absorption of other elements such as Iron.

Of note, most orange juice is made from concentrate and so it has very little vitamin C as this is destroyed by high temperatures, freshly squeezed juice or fresh oranges have a high vitamin C content.

GuanYin

DrIndy wrote:

(on an aside - I am enjoying this scientific debate! )

I have difficulty accepting that toxic levels of vitamin C are possible in breast milk - although I do not doubt that in extreme or very rare cases it *may* be possible. I have not been able to find any scientific information which would support this - but would love to see the papers concerned. Vitamin C is also water soluble, unlike fat soluble vitamins such as A,D,E,K and thus very easy to excrete excess amounts..

I gave you the references (or at least pushed you in the rigt direction), you will probably need to source hard copies.

As for toxic effects of vitamin C - high doses are well known to cause bloating and even diarrhea due to osmotic effects of the vitamin in the GI tract.

Sufferers of hemochromatosis are also at risk as Vitamin C keeps iron in its ferrous form and thus high doses can increase iron absorption and lead to an "iron overdose".

As for renal damage? Well high level of vitamin C can lead to oxalate stones, but only in those with weak or damaged kidneys.

There is also a tenuous link with pro-oxidant effects.

Khannie

Could you quantify "high dose"?

I use berocca. They have around a gram(me?) of Vitamin C if I remember correctly. Is that a "high dose"? I take them irregularly. Mostly when I'm feeling a bit low / run down. At most three a week. I also have a fairly healthy diet. Much better than average.

Also, there are three 15 letter words used in a correct context in this thread. Nice going so far. Anyone going to up the ante?

DrIndy

Also, there are three 15 letter words used in a correct context in this thread. Nice going so far. Anyone going to up the ante?

I apologise, I always try to avoid jargon!

As for renal damage? Well high level of vitamin C can lead to oxalate stones, but only in those with weak or damaged kidneys.

This is true. Here is a small trial demonstrating this effect:

http://www.brazjurol.com.br/march_april_2003/survey/Urological_Survey_Pearle_167_168.htm

However, of note the patients here were taking between 1g and 2g of vitamin C per day and they had a predisposition to getting kidney stones initially. You are either stone former or not which relates to your internal metabolism - and so if you are not at risk, it is not an issue.

High dose vitamin C would be to take more than 1g per day. Your Recomended daily allowance of vitamin C is 60mg - so taking 500mg is more than enough. There are postulated links between cancer prevention and immune system function via its anti-oxidant effect with high dose vitamin C, but as psi said, the links are tenuous at best.

People with haemochromatosis should perhaps not take high dose vitamin C as it logically increases iron absorption, but it would be important not to avoid ALL vitamin C as it is needed for a great number of other functions. There are other treatments for haemachromatosis which make a greater impact.

(Haemachromatisis is a common genetic disease amongst irish people where there is too much iron absorbed by the gut due to a dysfunction in the cells. This results in a very high iron load in the body that accumulates slowly and the cause considerable organ damage including liver cirrhosis, liver failure, pancreas damage and diabetes and "bronzing" of the skin from iron deposits. Treatment involves frequent blood removal to lower total iron body stores, when this is done - people are little affected)

Capt'n Midnight

Khannie wrote:

I use berocca. They have around a gram(me?) of Vitamin C if I remember correctly. Is that a "high dose"?

Linus Pauling used to a lot of preventative vitamin C every day. While you could argue that he didn't have a Nobel Prize in Biology,he did have one in Chemistry (and another for peace) and some reckon that he would have got a third one for DNA helix if Watson & Crick hadn't got there first.