How bad is it?

stevieg_irl

I was driving along on my own minding my own business 6months ago when i came to a garda checkpoint, the guard asked for my license (first provisonal) and said i needed a fully licensed driver,which i knew.
last week i got a summons to court for that and no L plates, dont think there is points for it but probably a fine.
Im 20 and have been stopped a few times,but only at checkpoints ,every other time nothing was said
am i screwed?

dogz

no, 1 of 2 things will happen, it will get thrown out of court or at most u will get a penalty point :eek:

Bogger77

Unlikey to get thrown out of court, they've been told to clamp down on L drivers with no qualified driver. Doubting there's points, you're looking at maybe 80euro fine. Just get a decent solicitor (shows you're taking it seriously), plead quilty, apologise, get the brief to say it was a rare occasion, etc etc.

Big Nelly

dogz wrote:

no, 1 of 2 things will happen, it will get thrown out of court or at most u will get a penalty point :eek:

Thats the problem.....everyone is driving around with no full license or full licensed driver with them and making the road a disaster. There should be bigger fines/bans for this sort of thing....otherwise we will still be here in 10-20 years with the same amount of road deaths......

I do alot of driving and the amount of people that are on the road without a clue is a joke.....half of the people think the indicators are only there to use at Xmas.....dont know how or wat way to go around a roundabout......dont even suggest indicators here either.....they are for Xmas lights.....and good luck when you try to explain the difference between the fast lane and slow lane...usual face you get is

Only time I heard of anything being done in this sort of situation was in Mayo or somewhere.....Father had his son insured on his car and he was on his first provisonal license....was in a town picking up someone and went flying up through the town(prob minding his own business as well:-))....anyway the cops spotted him and followed.....so they seen him pass out on a single white line(PM me if you want to know wat that means)...pulled him over and when he went to court the Judge cancelled his license and his fathers because the father should have been with him or at least had a driver with him seeing as it was his car and insurance......

Not saying you where breaking the speed limit or passing out on white lines but it could be seen as the same.....are you actually insured in a car on your first provisonal license with no other driver??? if so thats the problem!!!!

RANT OVER

Seth Brundle

stevieg_irl wrote:

I was driving along on my own minding my own business 6months ago when i came to a garda checkpoint, the guard asked for my license (first provisonal) and said i needed a fully licensed driver,which i knew.
last week i got a summons to court for that and no L plates, dont think there is points for it but probably a fine.
Im 20 and have been stopped a few times,but only at checkpoints ,every other time nothing was said
am i screwed?

I don't think they award points for this * but as mentioned you will more than likely get a slap on the wrist.

* the offence of driving on a prov licence without a qualified driver will in time recieve 1 point or 3 if it goes to court.

kenmc

I agree. it's rediculous that you can drive a car with a provisional licence without a fully licenced driver in the car. I think that if the insurance companies refused to pay out in that circumstance then you'd see a hell of a lot of ppl off the road instantly.
And another joke is that on your second provo (but not your third!!! huh?) you can drive on your own, AND if you fail your test you can still drive home alone!!!!! WTF??????
edit : actually one of the lads in work was pulled over on the motorway cos he had L plates up for the girlfriend - he has a full licence but she has a provo, and 3 guards got out of the jeep to him. Bout time they're starting to tackle that one too.
I also heard that it's an offense of some sort to drive with L plates if you're not a learner - anyone throw some light on that one??? I always take the girlfs back L plate down when I'm driving anyway, cos I don't wanna be mistaken for a learner and have that hassle on the motorway etc.

Borzoi

Big Nelly wrote:

Thats the problem........RANT OVER

Indeed. Can we try and keep this on topic, preferably those who've had similar experiences to the OP.

Eoin

kenmc wrote:

I think that if the insurance companies refused to pay out in that circumstance then you'd see a hell of a lot of ppl off the road instantly.

Ken, I agree with the problem of unqualified drivers on the road etc, but not the approach above. Suppose the L driver hits someone else's car - why should that person have problems claiming the money? This is really punishing a 3rd party

Norinoco

Big Nelly wrote:

Thats the problem.....everyone is driving around with no full license or full licensed driver with them and making the road a disaster. There should be bigger fines/bans for this sort of thing....otherwise we will still be here in 10-20 years with the same amount of road deaths......

In all honesty, there is not much a full licensed driver can do sitting in the passenger seat...And with the waiting lists for driving tests, in reality it's not possible to have someone beside you all the time ( esp. if you use the car for work, visiting relations, etc )

I reckon they should bring in the drivers education classes that they have in the states. At the end of the day - everyone will be driving on the road - why not teach good habits early, rather than picking up bad ones and trying to get rid of them for the driving test.

Big Nelly wrote:

are you actually insured in a car on your first provisonal license with no other driver??? if so thats the problem!!!!

RANT OVER

Yep, they are insured. Insured if they dont put up L plates aswell

jhegarty

stevieg_irl wrote:

I was driving along on my own minding my own business 6months ago when i came to a garda checkpoint, the guard asked for my license (first provisonal) and said i needed a fully licensed driver,which i knew.
last week i got a summons to court for that and no L plates, dont think there is points for it but probably a fine.
Im 20 and have been stopped a few times,but only at checkpoints ,every other time nothing was said
am i screwed?

i'd say its the on L plates thing made them mad... they hate that...

they will usually over look the 1st prov thing , becuase of the long wait of test (make sure you are on a waiting list for a test when you go to court)...but there is nothing to excuse for having no L plate ...

causal

stevieg - go to a solicitor and he'll advise you on what's in your best interest.

As far as road traffic offences go - your's is near the bottom of the list - for e.g. compare it to 'causing death by dangerous driving'. It's no big deal, but it's a pain in the ass for you now. You don't need to hire some top-notch solicitor unless you're loaded; but it'd be worth seeing a solicitor before you go to court; you can use one of the ones that spend their day in court dealing with the regulars; the Garda might be able to give you a name - they often have a 'cosy' relationship.

Barring some legal technicality or a loophole or a pissed off judge or an 'old-school-tie', it's hard to see how you can avoid anything other than a plea of guilty. As was already said your solicitor should say what a great guy you are, your previous record (or lack thereof) can be held up. It'd be no harm to get some proper lessons pronto, and get your driving test application in. These can be mentioned in court also. Also it'd be good to be able to tell the judge that you now travel with a suitably licensed driver in the car. Wear a suit, and be well presented - the judge will notice.

In fariness I should also say, tut-tut, follow the law

causal

Con9903

Aye I'd say it was the lack of L plates that pissed them off, they usually don't care about no full licence holder in the car

Guy:Incognito

Norinoco wrote:

In all honesty, there is not much a full licensed driver can do sitting in the passenger seat...And with the waiting lists for driving tests, in reality it's not possible to have someone beside you all the time ( esp. if you use the car for work, visiting relations, etc )

And the penny drops........or not. Thats exactly what your not supposed to be doing. The idea of a provisional is that you get driving experience, not that you go out and get you rown car and drive it alone all the time.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Big Nelly wrote:

Thats the problem.....everyone is driving around with no full license or full licensed driver with them and making the road a disaster. There should be bigger fines/bans for this sort of thing....otherwise we will still be here in 10-20 years with the same amount of road deaths......

Is there any proof/stats the say that accidents and other factors, which as you put it are 'making the road a disaster', are caused by provisional liscence drivers??

Big Nelly wrote:

I do alot of driving and the amount of people that are on the road without a clue is a joke.....half of the people think the indicators are only there to use at Xmas.....dont know how or wat way to go around a roundabout......dont even suggest indicators here either.....they are for Xmas lights.....

I have to agree on this one, but I find the main offenders are taxies and old blokes in big cars, both of which have either more then one liscence and/or a lot of driving 'experiance'.

Big Nelly wrote:

and good luck when you try to explain the difference between the fast lane and slow lane...usual face you get is

You see, thats the trouble right there, we do not have 'fast' and 'slow' lanes, we have a driving lane, and usually one overtaking lane, but sometimes on larger roads there are two overtaking lanes.

Seth Brundle

@Stekelly - are you sure that is the idea of the provisional? I thought driving in Ireland was a right and not a privilige!

bonzai bob

Big Nelly wrote:

Thats the problem.....everyone is driving around with no full license or full licensed driver with them and making the road a disaster. There should be bigger fines/bans for this sort of thing....otherwise we will still be here in 10-20 years with the same amount of road deaths......

I do alot of driving and the amount of people that are on the road without a clue is a joke.....half of the people think the indicators are only there to use at Xmas.....dont know how or wat way to go around a roundabout......dont even suggest indicators here either.....they are for Xmas lights.....and good luck when you try to explain the difference between the fast lane and slow lane...usual face you get is

Only time I heard of anything being done in this sort of situation was in Mayo or somewhere.....Father had his son insured on his car and he was on his first provisonal license....was in a town picking up someone and went flying up through the town(prob minding his own business as well:-))....anyway the cops spotted him and followed.....so they seen him pass out on a single white line(PM me if you want to know wat that means)...pulled him over and when he went to court the Judge cancelled his license and his fathers because the father should have been with him or at least had a driver with him seeing as it was his car and insurance......

Not saying you where breaking the speed limit or passing out on white lines but it could be seen as the same.....are you actually insured in a car on your first provisonal license with no other driver??? if so thats the problem!!!!

RANT OVER

please post links that show that Learner drivers are making the roads a disaster, usually the worst drivers i come across are, middle aged men/women in their Merc/BMW, women in general, Taxi drivers, bus drivers. I've never had a problem with learner drivers.

Also please tell me the difference between a driver 1 hour before a driving test takes place and 1 hour after they have passed.

Bogger77

bonzai bob wrote:

Also please tell me the difference between a driver 1 hour before a driving test takes place and 1 hour after they have passed.

Surely you meant a driver with a full license, rather than one with a cert of competency (which you get when you pass your test), but assuming you did, the difference between a 20 yr old with a provisional license, and a 20 yr old with his full license, the day after they passed their test, is quite simply that the Full license holder can legally drive unaccompanied, can legally drive on motorways and can legally accompany a provisional license holder. That's the only difference is what they can legally do, nothing to do with ability.

The OP was legally bound, on a 1st provisional, to have a qualified license holder accompanying them, in the passenger seat and that qualified person must be fit to drive, i.e. under the drink drive limits. The OP was legally bound to display L plates on the car at all times he/she was driving it.

He/She didn't confirm to those requirements.

To try break off-topic onto driving standards, accident rates etc is not helpful in advising the OP what to do. Start a new thread on that topic if ye like.

Big Nelly

bonzai bob wrote:

please post links that show that Learner drivers are making the roads a disaster, usually the worst drivers i come across are, middle aged men/women in their Merc/BMW, women in general, Taxi drivers, bus drivers. I've never had a problem with learner drivers.

Also please tell me the difference between a driver 1 hour before a driving test takes place and 1 hour after they have passed.

How many young drivers are killed every weekend? and how many of them have full licenses? my cousin was 18 with provisional license and was killed because he shouldnt have really been allowed drive on the roads....how many other countries in Europe have the same setup as Ireland? whats there rate of deaths on the roads???

Also dont say it because it takes so long for a test....I applied for my test a few years ago when everyone said it was a 6 month wait at least.....2-3 weeks later and the date was set....that was outside Dublin alright but my GF done heres in Dublin and got a date 3-4 weeks after applying.......now the system has improved alot more since then and everyone I have talked to hasnt had a problem with getting a date for a test....

Borzoi wrote:

Indeed. Can we try and keep this on topic, preferably those who've had similar experiences to the OP.

Anyway I was told not to go off topic already so thats the end of my discussion here.....sorry Borzoi but just answering the question

bonzai bob

Bogger77 wrote:

Surely you meant a driver with a full license, rather than one with a cert of competency (which you get when you pass your test), but assuming you did, the difference between a 20 yr old with a provisional license, and a 20 yr old with his full license, the day after they passed their test, is quite simply that the Full license holder can legally drive unaccompanied, can legally drive on motorways and can legally accompany a provisional license holder. That's the only difference is what they can legally do, nothing to do with ability.

The OP was legally bound, on a 1st provisional, to have a qualified license holder accompanying them, in the passenger seat and that qualified person must be fit to drive, i.e. under the drink drive limits. The OP was legally bound to display L plates on the car at all times he/she was driving it.

He/She didn't confirm to those requirements.

To try break off-topic onto driving standards, accident rates etc is not helpful in advising the OP what to do. Start a new thread on that topic if ye like.

don't tell me, tell the poster to whom i asked a question

MrPudding

stevieg_irl wrote:

am i screwed?

Hopefully.

MrP

jhegarty

Big Nelly wrote:

How many young drivers are killed every weekend? and how many of them have full licenses? my cousin was 18 with provisional license and was killed because he shouldnt have really been allowed drive on the roads....how many other countries in Europe have the same setup as Ireland? whats there rate of deaths on the roads???

Also dont say it because it takes so long for a test....I applied for my test a few years ago when everyone said it was a 6 month wait at least.....2-3 weeks later and the date was set....that was outside Dublin alright but my GF done heres in Dublin and got a date 3-4 weeks after applying.......now the system has improved alot more since then and everyone I have talked to hasnt had a problem with getting a date for a test....



Anyway I was told not to go off topic already so thats the end of my discussion here.....sorry Borzoi but just answering the question

the waiting times are published here : http://www.drivingtest.ie/drivingtest/HTMLContent/passrates.html

they have gone up the last few years... not down....

RainyDay

kenmc wrote:

I agree. it's rediculous that you can drive a car with a provisional licence without a fully licenced driver in the car. I think that if the insurance companies refused to pay out in that circumstance then you'd see a hell of a lot of ppl off the road instantly.

Dead right - and hopefully they'll stop paying out for all those other insurance fraudsters - the snotty college students who are actually the main driver of the car but are insured as a named driver, and all those culchies who have their cars insured at the culchie address but actually live in Dublin, and all those Nordies who live down here & drive their yellow reg cars down here.

Big Nelly

RainyDay wrote:

......... and all those culchies who have their cars insured at the culchie address but actually live in Dublin.........

Well according to my insurance company and most I have been talking to they have changed and most companies now say it doesnt matter now if you live in Dublin or not.....used to put the policy up but doesnt now......

Also wat the hell has that got to do with driving skills? or learner drivers? please explain your comments!!!!!

Also I wouldnt worry about wat you call the "nordies" drivers because most of them are useless drivers alright but at least they have insurance.....I see people from France/Belgium/Germany everyday in my job with cars brought over from ther country with no tax/insurance/anything.......these are the main problem and the government needs to do something about it..

Again sorry for bringing this off topic!!!

RainyDay

Big Nelly wrote:

Also I wouldnt worry about wat you call the "nordies" drivers because most of them are useless drivers alright but at least they have insurance.....

If they have lied on their insurance proposal form (i.e. claimed their address as Norn Iron while actually living down south), their insurance contract is invalid and they are driving without insurance.

JohnCleary

bonzai bob wrote:

Also please tell me the difference between a driver 1 hour before a driving test takes place and 1 hour after they have passed.

Theyre usually a worse driver coming out of the test if they pass because they have the "I can drive however I like now, I have nothing to be a safe driver for anymore" attitude

Type 17

JohnCleary wrote:

Theyre usually a worse driver coming out of the test if they pass because they have the "I can drive however I like now, I have nothing to be a safe driver for anymore" attitude

This is an issue - when I passed, I could avoid feeling a bit like this, even though I kept telling myself that my skills hadn't improved in the 40 mins that the test took.

That was in 1992, aged 23, and looking back, I would say that passing the test just proves that you "avoided crashing or making any serious errors for about half an hour" - but you actually "learn to drive" from then on, rather than up to then...

JohnCleary

Type 17 wrote:

This is an issue - when I passed, I could avoid feeling a bit like this, even though I kept telling myself that my skills hadn't improved in the 40 mins that the test took.

That was in 1992, aged 23, and looking back, I would say that passing the test just proves that you "avoided crashing or making any serious errors for about half an hour" - but you actually "learn to drive" from then on, rather than up to then...

Different now a days tbh. When I passed (lately!), eventhough I consider myself a good driver, I wouldnt be as bothered 'looking in the mirror' etc. because you dont have to be 'acting' anymore.. Until I do the Ignition test that is

prospect

Once again, the law is the law..

1. You should not drive on a provisional without a fully licensed driver - Why? Because an experienced driver can give you advice on road rules, indicating properly, etiquette etc..
2. You should always display, clearly, your L plate to indicate to others that you are not an experienced driver.

But i think the following should apply

1. I think the driving test should be improved to include, motorway driving / city driving / night driving.
2. I think the enforcement of the L plate laws, and provisional driving laws should be increased and 'zero tolerance' applied
3. I think there should be a green L plate which should be displayed for 12 months after passing the test
4. I think all drivers should be educated to be more tolerant of L drivers, and keep a good distance from them, etc. etc.

Finally
1. I don't think that high driving test waiting lists is an excuse to ignore the law, and endanger the lives of other road users.
2. I don't think that poor enforcement of L plate/provisional licence laws is an excuse to ignore the law, and endanger the lives of other road users.
3. I don't think that 'YOUR' (who ever you are that is guilty of this) self assesed opinion of your driving skills is an excuse to ignore the law, and endanger the lives of other road users.

The law is there to protect us all, it may be flawed in places, but this is no excuse for any individual to decide they are entitled to do what is convenient for them selves...

Cheers

vector

prospect, an excellent post, well organised. But a pipedream. "I don't think that high driving test waiting lists is an excuse to ignore the law, and endanger the lives of other road users."

That is easy to say for someone who has a driving licence, but for those who are waiting, in the real world, it is an valid excuse, the law is only made up by people, it is not perfect, it is slow to adapt, sometimes it is necessary to bend it. In the real world people have jobs to go to, and the bus doesn't always do, as many will discover during the next oil crisis walking takes time.

prospect

vector wrote:

prospect, an excellent post, well organised. But a pipedream. "I don't think that high driving test waiting lists is an excuse to ignore the law, and endanger the lives of other road users."

That is easy to say for someone who has a driving licence, but for those who are waiting, in the real world, it is an valid excuse, the law is only made up by people, it is not perfect, it is slow to adapt, sometimes it is necessary to bend it. In the real world people have jobs to go to, and the bus doesn't always do, as many will discover during the next oil crisis walking takes time.

Thank you,

I know it is a pipedream, and always will be, because of the continuing failings of our government with regards to issues like public transportation, but i was just expressing my view.
I do completley understand your point, I was a provisional driver once, and my parents absoloutly prohibited me driving unsupervised, maybe thats what shaped my opinion on the matter ???
But, (there has to be a but, not necessarily the nice kind of 'butt'), you are valuing convenience over human life!

johnnyc

i dont totally agree that you should have a full license to drive a car i believe we should have a system for provisonal license drivers to be able to drive alone between certain times..they should divide the provisonal license into 2 system where a person after a year driving with a experience driver and has taken lets say 12 driving lessons should be able to drive a car alone.. The people who say that provisonal drivers shouldn't be driving a car alone ok in the perfect world we would have people who want to gain an a full license should be able to do so in 12 weeks but they have to wait over a year..

vector

If an applicacant has to wiat more than x* weeks for a test then his fee should be mmediately refunded (by means of a cheque posted to his application address)

If this was done I guarantee* some solution would be found to the waiting list problem

*this would be around 12, although the ideal number could be determined by an expensive study by PWC which might cost 500,000 and take 6months

*guarantee valid except where void (inter loc twin cities, tri-state area, and Ohio)

xzodia

where as i agreed with some of the points stated i do have one little problem with the whole L driver needing a licenced driver with them and that is there are alot of people out there that have never had to sit a test just went in and bought their license, so if as suggested we have a zero tolerence law to L drivers shouldnt every driver who has never passed a test be under supervision