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Why are women considered evil?

  • #2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭✭✭ caracal


    Just finished reading Dan Browns "The Da Vinci Code" which gives mention to female Gods, Mary Magdelene before the history of Jesus was completely rewriten, anyhoo, whenever one read mythology Norse, Greek or the treatment of women in modern day religions why are women also evil?. In Greek myth. there is Pandoras Box, in Norse the coming of women destorys the happiness of the Gods of Asgard, Eve. Women give life, every man comes from women so whats the deal?


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Comments

  • #2


    You're forgetting about Eve, who performs the Pandora function for the Jewish mythology.

    I don't really know why women are so ill-regarded. Perhaps it's because they are the only ones with any real power over humanity that the men felt the need to over-compensate. Maybe not. Men sometimes have a deep-seated fear of women because they don't understand them, and that sometimes comes out as a monster movie, a la Medusa, whose tentacles were said by Sigmund Freud to be a representation of the male fear of the female genitalia. Heh heh. I said "genitalia". Sorry. I'm OK now.

    In any case, however bad women have it, you really have to pity any women who happens to be a step-mother. Those poor women really have it bad in myths and legends. They're like evil squared. Maybe it's a representation of man's fear of women to the power of the whole mother complex. As the Oresteia taught us, it's OK to hate your parents as long as they are not blood...


  • #2


    I just noticed that you did, in fact, mention Eve. Sorry.


  • #2


    I think Eve comes across as more intelligent than Adam actually. She had to be tricked by the snake into eating that apple - however, she just handed it to Adam, and he ate it unquestioningly. Idiot.
    As for why women are portrayed as evil - people are suspicious of that which they do not understand. Men do not understand women.


  • #2


    If it was just a lack of understanding it might be OK - I think it's more a shaking terror of What Lies Beneath.


  • #2


    well, adam trusted his life partner eve not to get him kicked out of heaven.

    clearly the lesson here is never trust women.


  • #2


    Mordeth wrote:
    clearly the lesson here is never trust women.

    or apples.


  • #2


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

    or then you've got Lilith, the mythical first wife of adam:
    Lilith is described as refusing to assume a subservient role to Adam during sexual intercourse and deserts him ("She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.'"). Lilith then went on to mate with Asmodai and various other demons she found beside the Red Sea, creating countless lilin. Adam urged God to bring Lilith back, so three angels were dispatched after her. When the angels, Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, made threats to kill one hundred of Lilith's demonic children for each day she stayed away, she countered that she would prey eternally upon the descendants of Adam and Eve, who could be saved only by invoking the names of the three angels, and did not return to Adam.

    see, proof. no one likes strong women :P


  • #2


    Where in the bible is that?


  • #2


    Doodee wrote:
    or apples.

    beware the female apples


  • #2


    Old Testament Isaiah 34:14: The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. This translation of Lilith is a Hapax legomenon. (See also Little_Owl)

    ^^apparently, there is some basis for it.


  • #2


    Patriarchal societies, my friend, patriarchal societies. But when one looks at the myths of the older, matriarchal societies, such as Ireland and VERY, VERY ancient Mesopotamia, one finds that most of the important "goodguys" are women as well. It's more about whether women are strong or weak, rather than good or evil.

    And not ALL women are evil. What about Frigg, Amaterasu, Freyja, the Virgin Mary, Guinevere, Parvati, Izanami, Isis, Innana (sp?), Niamh, Aphrodite, Sif, etc., etc.? ;)
    in Norse the coming of women destorys the happiness of the Gods of Asgard

    Umm... what?

    I mean, Viking Era Scandinavia was the most patriarchal of the societies mentioned, but I have heard naught of this up to now.


  • #2


    quoted from "Nordic Gods and Heroes" by Padraic Colum. "three women of the Giants had come amongst the AEsir. After the three had been with them for a time the lives of the AEsir changed. Then did they begin to value and to hoard the gold that they had played with. Then did they think of War........ the three were driven out of Asgard....... Never again were the AEsir as happy as they were before the women came to them from the Giants".
    O.K. so it is not as clear cut as the story of Eve, I mean Loki would have caused more trouble then these three did. I just thought it was another example where women were blamed for the change in attitude of the men.
    A bit like islamic women who have to wear the full burqa so that men would not be tempted by their beauty, in spite of the obvious impraticality of being entirely covered in black, head to top, while it is 50 degrees outside.


  • #2


    Hmmm... still doesn't ring a bell. I'm not going to argue, because you clearly know what you're talking about, but I'm going to have to find a copy of this book you quote. Do you happen to know the names of these Giantesses, that I might look them up in a more reliable source like, say, the Prose Edda?

    Anyway, it sounds to me more like the story is criticising Giants than women. Maybe it refers specifically to female Giants, but...


  • #2


    Gulveig was a name of one of the Giants.


  • #2


    Ah, that's better. But isn't she one of the Vanir? The witch who visited the Aesir and was killed a number of times by them, returning each time? And then the Vanir declared war on the Aesir because of her humiliation? I know there are other instances where the same name refers to more than one character, but this seems too like it was a misinterpretation by someone. I'll check this name in the index for the Prose Edda on www.sacred-texts.com, nonetheless.


  • #2


    Well, nothing there. But this seems to have something different than what I know, and somewhat more similar to what you say. Though this Gulveig is definitely the one I was talking about, and she is hardly "evil".

    And this article links the same gold-obsessed character directly to dear old Freyja.


  • #2


    Where in the bible is that?
    It's not in the bible. The bible was assembled from a list of lots of books. A bunch of guys got together to decide what would be "canon" and what would be "ex-canon". All this stuff about Lilith is like the stuff about what happened to Enoch - it's all ex-canon. It has as much legitimacy as the canonical books, but for whatever reason it doesn't fit the paradigm. You get even more insight into the Old Testament and what the hell they were talking about in the Talmud, but it's hard to get a full version in English.


  • #2


    solo1 wrote:
    it's hard to get a full version in English.

    Maybe here?


  • #2


    Hi all. I came across this message board by accident while searching for the 'Super Draw Ireland' scam. I'm a volunteer guide in the Hunt Museum, Limerick, on Saturdays and have an interest in mythology.

    Re: Lilith, my understanding is that, according to some apocryphal texts, she was the first person created by God. She refused to be subservient to him and also refused not to say his name. So God created man and made woman from one of his ribs.

    As for 'evil women,' Eve was easily tempted by the serpent, so she was weak and, therefore, a danger to man. Have a look at depictions of the 'Fall of Man' in medieval art The serpent is often shown as a snake or salamander with a woman's face whispering in Eve's ear. In most depictions, Eve is to the left of Adam. Evil comes from the left-hand side (Latin for 'left' = 'sinister'). Michelangelo's statue of David shows him looking over his left shoulder as the carving 'sees' Goliath approaching.


  • #2


    Maybe here?
    Maybe. I was referring to printed copies, but that will do nicely. I have a printed copy of excerpts from the Talmud, published in 1896, but it's obviously not complete. Cost me about 200 quid at the time, too. Boo.


  • #2


    Well... thou art welcome, I guess.


  • #2


    solo1 wrote:
    In any case, however bad women have it, you really have to pity any women who happens to be a step-mother. Those poor women really have it bad in myths and legends. They're like evil squared. Maybe it's a representation of man's fear of women to the power of the whole mother complex.

    Where exactly is that, other than in the Children of Lír and various fairy tales (notably Cinderella, which the French changed dramatically from the original Chinese, BTW)? And the Children of Lír is by no means sexist against women, being Celtic and all - the main characters, rather than the villain, are women. People seem to have developed a habit of judging all mythologies by the myths and, indeed, myth-like-ish-sort-of-type-things that they themselves are familiar with.


  • #2


    Where exactly is that, other than in the Children of Lír and various fairy tales
    Yeah, apart from all the stories that have it, no stories have it.


  • #2


    While indeed your last statement is very much correct, I can think of very few examples outside of the Children of Lír, Cinderella, and perhaps one or two others.

    In fact, I can think of very few actual step-mothers in mythology. There are a lot of foster mothers, though, and most are quite benevolent.


  • #2


    Shae wrote:
    Lilith, my understanding is that, according to some apocryphal texts, she was the first person created by God.
    Adam and Lilith were created as a single hermaphrodite being ("male and female made He them") which was then split.
    After that upset the second wife in Rabinical tradition explains the need to make Adam go to sleep when Eve was created - Adam saw the second wife being made, bones, mucus, blood, muscle, organs, etc., goes "ewwww" (men are so squeamish) and she doesn't even stay in the picture long enough to get a name. So then when wife no. 3 is created (Eve) Adam is sent to sleep first.


  • #2


    There are a lot of foster mothers, though, and most are quite benevolent.
    The foster mother gambit is usually all about the kid, though. Frequently, their impact on the story is over once they have been registered as having raised the child instead of the real parent. With the admittedly more uncommon step-mother gambit, she always has a more prominent role to play.


  • #2


    What is Cacaral TALKING about?! Brown gives an intricate description of why women are made into villains, and yet she started this thread. The "Church" needed to stamp out paganism so all the Divine Feminism and anything that made women seem human was banned - hence today's attitude.


  • #2


    Here's my limited knowledge on the subject.

    In the begining there were the gods *duh*. Upon seeing the fruit of the womb it was believed that all in existance was created by a woman - hense the entire devine feminine thingy.

    After a while men realised "Hey I've some part to play in the creation of life" so acting like complete pricks they created the male deities which existed as equals with the female deities (like the minor Greek gods etc.) Eventually though the male deities muscled in.


  • #2


    there was a thread which touched on this subject over at spirituality a while back. While the topic may be deemed nothing more than mythology itself, it is based on the understanding that earth moves in cycles referred to as "Luga's" and at the end of the last "luga" women were revered within society, hence the current fear of female authority in any form.

    I dunno if anyone is interested, just thought it was an interesting theory.


  • #2


    spudington16 are you a complete retard are did you not manage to read the entire post. There are several incidents, excluding the bible where women are considered "evil" in the case of the norse and greek myths which I gave examples of, you may not be aware because you don't seem too bright but these myth were actually writen BEFORE the bible, even before Jesus was born, incredible I know but actually true. It is quiet obivous why the church did what it did that is why my post is based on several incidents of "evil women". It's real impressive that you were able to read a whole Dan Brown book, good for you, gold star.


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