IrelandOffline on Newstalk 21/03/05 12.30

damien

A rep from IrelandOffline will be on the Damien Kiberd show today around 12.30

Send your comments to the show via the following media:
Email: damien@newstalk106.ie
Phone: 01 644 5113
Text: 086 6000 106

Every single comment is important, so don't hesitate, get your comments in.

jwt

Good luck

John

damien

*bump*

Tell Mr. Kiberd what you think about the table.

WizZard

Just listening now. Go Damien!

damien

Merci.

shinzon

Shin simply APPLAUDS

Way to go for ripping into mcredmond Damien, he hadnt a leg to stand on, a masterclass in blowing apart eircoms smoke and mirror propaganda piece by piece


Claps hands in glee



Shin

RE*AC*TOR

transcript / recording?

Praetorian

Please tell me someone recorded it

cgarvey

Praetorian wrote:

Please tell me someone recorded it

jaysus lads gimme a chance

RE*AC*TOR

no! no chances! we want instant gratification!

cgarvey

Rip is here (16kbps ~ 1.5MB) .. PM for lower bitrate, if required.

.cg

RE*AC*TOR

thanks

RE*AC*TOR

Well done Damien, would have liked if your final comment about the importance of upload speed was acknowledged.

viking

Bloody good work Damien!

bealtine

Poor ol' Dave sounded a bit "ruffled" imho.

Why let mere facts spoil a good rant?

Well done Damien

kasintahan

Dave McRedmond kicked ass.

Ireland Offline need to get someone who can match him point for point not have their own points crumble in the face of a little prodding from Eircom.

Round 1: eircom

jwt

Thanks for the offer

What dates are you available to do interviews and can we post your contact details in the media list?

John

eircomtribunal

Damien, that was excellent.


Again Comreg gave McRedmond the ammunition to mislead on Ireland's general Telecoms price level. In the latest Quarterly, to which McRedmond referred, they selectively and misleadingly took the one graph from the data prepared by the EU which shows Ireland with lower costs than EU average. The really important data about the total composite cost of telephony from the same EU data compilation is of course not shown by our regulator, because people would – rightly – start asking questions about the quality of same regulator.

Average monthly expenditure residential:


And for business:


P.

Praetorian

Kasintahan,

IrelandOffline always tell the truth. They consistently give facts and figures that are 100% correct. Eircom are liars desperately trying to hold onto their archaic monopoly. McRedmond conjures up statistics, figures and lies as well as Mandrake the magician. Eircom know that Joe Bloggs will accept their bullsh1t as gospel, and they are counting on it. IrelandOffline has time after time beaten Eircom point for point in the papers, on the radio and on TV. With our weak subservient regulator letting the tail wag the dog, IrelandOffline is clearly needed as much now as it ever was.

They are making a difference, and your pointless negativity isn’t helping anyone. It’s just wasting our time.

cgarvey

Ease up here guys .. the guy has a point to make.

/me takes off the cap..

In his defense I've had 2 comments from a friend who happened to be listening to it but isn't au fait with BB/telecoms/IoffL/etc.

Firstly "we" didn't have any answer to his implied point of "we have a report from an independant consulting company that says otherwise" (not quoting directly). (What can we say other than we trawled websites and consumers across all the countries ourselves; is that enough?.. I genuinely don't know, beacause I'm too biased now)

Secondly he kept playing on the "yes, but we are going to 2Mb shortly" (again, not a direct quote).. to which our response was along the lines, "but that's April, we're talking about now", which, he felt, kind of made the point a moot one.

Those were his reactions, for whatever reason.

Still though, I think we did well .. if nothing else to the layman, we got the point across that what eircom says doesn't match what everyone says. We've been doing that very well of late. Surely, kasintahan, you'd agree to that at least?

If we weren't gaining progress, why would McRedmond start appearing alongside IoffL, where previously there were no-shows and no-commits everytime they were due in a head-to-head? Also the media are paying a lot more attention to Damien and the committee. That doesn't happen by accident, and it certainly doesn't happen if the journos think IoffL haven't a point to make (or aren't making the point very well).

.cg

cgarvey

eircomtribunal wrote:

Damien, that was excellent.

Indeed, it was. The turnaround in the entire media you've managed to achieve
is testement to that. From them replying "who?" to them asking "how do you respond", in 6 months .. not bad at all!!

We've got the momentum now...

.cg

Blaster99

Objectively I think that was probably a draw, but I wouldn't expect IOFFL to beat McRedmond. That guy is class and he also has access to a phenomenal amount of resources that IOFFL doesn't.

The whole concept of the broadband report is excellent. Media loves this type of stuff.

McRedmond has a very good point when he questions the data. There are a lot of different broadband alternatives many with very limited geographical spread and it's not fair to compare Eircom's USO offering with that. I did a couple of those countries in the list and I think you guys have for instance picked 10Mbps as an example for Sweden. I'm pretty sure that is not an ADSL-based service. Personally I think you should probably do a survey of ADSL services only, to be as fair as possible. I don't think the result is going to vary much but the report will stand up to more scrutiny.

This is a first stab at it and a very good stab it is too.

Mr_Man

It might be an idea to challenge Eircom to publish the report which McRedmond made such a fuss about in the interview. No doubt they will claim that it is commercially sensitive, but they either need to put up or not rely on information they are unwilling to put out to review.

M.

mike65

If the calls were representative of the listeners then IOFFL scored a direct hit whatever about McRedmonds input/smoke/mirrors.

Mike.

ps I was going to say the lo-fi rip quality was awful but then I remembered why IOFFL still exists!

SeaSide

Mr_Man wrote:

It might be an idea to challenge Eircom to publish the report which McRedmond made such a fuss about in the interview. No doubt they will claim that it is commercially sensitive, but they either need to put up or not rely on information they are unwilling to put out to review.

M.

If eircom paid them how can they be independent consultants?

eircomtribunal

Blaster99 wrote:

Objectively I think that was probably a draw, but I wouldn't expect IOFFL to beat McRedmond. That guy is class and he also has access to a phenomenal amount of resources that IOFFL doesn't.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." (Ghandi)

P.

eircomtribunal

Blaster99 wrote:

McRedmond has a very good point when he questions the data. There are a lot of different broadband alternatives many with very limited geographical spread and it's not fair to compare Eircom's USO offering with that.

Eircom's USO offer is of very limited geographical spread and of very limited population reach, so some products in comparative countries offered not countrywide might well have a wider population reach than Eircom's offer.

McRedmond is standing on very thin ice on many arguments.

If the cost of living was to be included in the comparison, Iceland and Denmark would fare much better than Ireland.

McRedmond's claim of the special offers in Ireland could easily be refuted, as most of the other countries are on constant special offers since years.

P.

kasintahan

cgarvey wrote:

Still though, I think we did well .. if nothing else to the layman, we got the point across that what eircom says doesn't match what everyone says. We've been doing that very well of late. Surely, kasintahan, you'd agree to that at least?

Look, i appreciate what your guys are doing.
Hell, I directly benifit from it.

But winning a debate ISN'T ABOUT KNOWING YOU ARE RIGHT.
It's about showing the opponent to be wrong and badly wrong.

McRedmond made a point, you challenged, he retorted with equal measures of "fact", confidence and persuasion whereupon you switched the facet of the argument. That made it look like you were losing.

Take a lesson from this man, he is a Jedi master of manipulation and crushed, killed and destroyed you in front of the average punter.

shinzon

kasintahan wrote:

Look, i appreciate what your guys are doing.
Hell, I directly benifit from it.

But winning a debate ISN'T ABOUT KNOWING YOU ARE RIGHT.
It's about showing the opponent to be wrong and badly wrong.

McRedmond made a point, you challenged, he retorted with equal measures of "fact", confidence and persuasion whereupon you switched the facet of the argument. That made it look like you were losing.

Take a lesson from this man, he is a Jedi master of manipulation and crushed, killed and destroyed you in front of the average punter.

Ive never heard such rubbish in all my life, what facts are you talking about, he spewed the same rubbish that he always spews, his facts were taken from sources he didnt name, his study was paid for by eircom, need i go on and on

Dont know what show you were listening to but i think you need to listen to it again

Shin

dahamsta

kasintahan wrote:

Take a lesson from this man, he is a Jedi master of manipulation and crushed, killed and destroyed you in front of the average punter.

I must have been listening to another show. Although I'm not going to cheerlead Damien on his performance like some, I'd call the actual battle of wits pretty much a draw, with McRedmond frustrating Damien on a couple of occasions and Damien equally showing McRedmond up as a snakeoil merchant when the opportunity arose. When the emails of support at the end of the piece are factored in, I'd give IrelandOffline a win. Not a huge win, but a clear win.

What frustrates me most about kasintahan's comments isn't the fact that he's calling this as a win for Eircom, however, it's the language he uses to call it. He seems to almost respect his ability to decieve and obfuscate the truth. Such behaviour should never be applauded or highlighted, it should be shown up for what it is: Garbage. McRedmond is potty-mouthed with his "facts".

adam

Jorinn

Blaster99 wrote:

I did a couple of those countries in the list and I think you guys have for instance picked 10Mbps as an example for Sweden. I'm pretty sure that is not an ADSL-based service. Personally I think you should probably do a survey of ADSL services only, to be as fair as possible. I don't think the result is going to vary much but the report will stand up to more scrutiny.

This is a first stab at it and a very good stab it is too.

True, the swedish 10Mbit service isn't adsl, but you can get 24Mbit ADSL for about €50 though, so whichever you want to use.

Jorinn

Oh, by the way, actually looked up how much 10Mbit down would cost back home with the new packages to be introduced. 2x4mbit + 2 Mbit + 3 line rental = over 500 euro

kasintahan

dahamsta wrote:

What frustrates me most about kasintahan's comments isn't the fact that he's calling this as a win for Eircom, however, it's the language he uses to call it. He seems to almost respect his ability to decieve and obfuscate the truth. Such behaviour should never be applauded or highlighted, it should be shown up for what it is: Garbage. McRedmond is potty-mouthed with his "facts".

adam

I'm being a realist.
This isn't a battle that will be won by a bunch of nerds with the inside track.

To win this you will have to get the public on board (and with them their respective politicians).
To do this you need to be seen to be showing up eircom in the worst possible way.

Yes I repect McRedmond - he knows the public don't check the facts, he knows nothing sells better than tabloid style journalism (see http://www.nni.ie/circfigs5.htm)
McRedmond doesn't need the best technical product, all he needs is public content with what he is offering. Politics is dirty, you wanna play?

De Rebel

kasintahan wrote:

Look, i appreciate what your guys are doing.
Hell, I directly benifit from it.

But winning a debate ISN'T ABOUT KNOWING YOU ARE RIGHT.
It's about showing the opponent to be wrong and badly wrong.

McRedmond made a point, you challenged, he retorted with equal measures of "fact", confidence and persuasion whereupon you switched the facet of the argument. That made it look like you were losing.

Take a lesson from this man, he is a Jedi master of manipulation and crushed, killed and destroyed you in front of the average punter.

Are you of the Judean People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea???

Damien did a good job. Damien is a volunteer. And he is untrained in the arts of spin. McRedmond is a professional who receives over half a million euros (over €500,000) each year to defend eircom. For Damien, with no resources and a minimum of support to produce a report which fleshed McRedmond out of his lair is an achievement of significance. For Damien to hold his own on the airwaves with one of Ireland’s most polished media performers is a magnificent achievement.

Damien, like others past and present in IOFFL, contributes to the common good, for no reward and for little by way of thanks.

Precisely what, apart from a pointless attempt to make your miserable self look intelligent and significant, is your contribution??

If you have something positive to contribute, lets hear about it. Otherwise shut up and disappear back into your hole.


To pick up on Peter’s point, “"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." (Ghandi)”, Damien is pretty much the first person to get McRedmond to phase 3. Roll on the victory……………

Slutmonkey57b

While that's true kasahistan, I've said it before and I'll say it again - McRedmond is very very good at what he does. He's paid to lie and spin, and we don't have to like it, or respect its purpose, but you do have to respect its execution. He's very hard to pin down and very good at controlling the agenda in an interview. I haven't listened to the latest rip, but if Damien was able to hold his own with McRedmond I'd call that a big win for a non-profit volunteer organisation with no media training.

kasintahan

De Rebel wrote:

Are you of the Judean People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea???

Damien did a good job. Damien is a volunteer. And he is untrained in the arts of spin. McRedmond is a professional who receives over half a million euros (over €500,000) each year to defend eircom. For Damien, with no resources and a minimum of support to produce a report which fleshed McRedmond out of his lair is an achievement of significance. For Damien to hold his own on the airwaves with one of Ireland’s most polished media performers is a magnificent achievement.

Damien, like others past and present in IOFFL, contributes to the common good, for no reward and for little by way of thanks.

Precisely what, apart from a pointless attempt to make your miserable self look intelligent and significant, is your contribution??

If you have something positive to contribute, lets hear about it. Otherwise shut up and disappear back into your hole.


To pick up on Peter’s point, “"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." (Ghandi)”, Damien is pretty much the first person to get McRedmond to phase 3. Roll on the victory……………

/me shrugs :rolleyes:

I say this once more. I'm not belittling what Damien has done.
Even getting on to the air is a start and it shows that the report is having some impact.

So what if McRedmond is on €500,000 pa? If that's what you're up against then so be it, it doesn't suddenly mean a small victory is a now a big one.

As for the Ghandi quotes that have been thrown around, Damien has reached (IMHO) the first step of phase 2.

It may not matter a toss in the end anyway. If the wireless providers (both bb and cellular) get their act together (globally) then eircoms precious copper pairs may be redundant (certainly for voice).

dahamsta

kasintahan wrote:

I say this once more. I'm not belittling what Damien has done.

You can say it as many times as you want, but that's precisely what you're doing, and that's why people are tackling you. You have a right to your opinion and no-one here will argue with you if you express it constructively.

And for the record, what you're doing isn't politics, it's politicking. That's the trouble with politics these days, too many people view it as a game, and forget that serious issues are at stake.

adam