British Govt considering using 'control orders' in North

Roisin Dubh

I feel really worried about this. If it happened, it would be even worse than internment, in that the suspects would not even know what they are being charged with, with is clearly a potential recipe for a renewed assault on the rights of the Nationalist community in the North.


http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=69903

British Govt considering using 'control orders' in North

The British Government has revealed that it is considering using controversial anti-terrorism "control orders" in the North.

The orders allow the Government to place people under house arrest and restrict their communications without charge or trial.

They were introduced last week after previous British anti-terror legislation that allowed for the internment of terrorism suspects without trial was deemed to be in breach of international human rights law.

In the British House of Lords yesterday, the Conservative Party's Northern Ireland spokesman Lord Glentoran asked if the orders would be used against republican or loyalist paramilitaries in the North.

The Labour Government's leader in the house, Baroness Amos, replied that it was under consideration, but said the orders were exceptional and would not be used routinely.

Sleepy

the orders were exceptional and would not be used routinely.

As long as this was genuinely adhered to I don't see the problem tbh. Might make the North a safer place if the "fringe elements" are taken out.

Sponge Bob

Control Orders = Internment without the right to free association in the camp. AND you have to pay for your own food too .

It would be nice if they were experimented with during the marching season

gandalf

Well the question of these being used up in Northern Ireland would not have occured if it wasn't for the IRA drawing attention to themselves with the recent "troubles".

A Dub in Glasgo

Welcome to the home of democracy where the peoples human rights are adhered to

Nuttzz

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

A Dub in Glasgo

Nuttzz wrote:

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

Nothing

gandalf

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

sceptre

gandalf wrote:

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

I'd easily agree with that - I've said the same on my occasional posts on US-based boards.

gurramok

Nuttzz wrote:

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

Problem in belfast is that it would be harder to enforce in a particular area unless there was 24/7 armed soldiers monitoring the suspect.(loyalist r repub.) unless they ferry them off to a camp or something.
In Leeds, there is no history of armed resistance to the authorities.

Mighty_Mouse

As long as this was genuinely adhered to I don't see the problem tbh. Might make the North a safer place if the "fringe elements" are taken out.

Because the history of the north is one of equal rights, fairness and justice for all, "genuine" use of the legal system etc ......right?

Slutmonkey57b

gandalf wrote:

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

Agreed. By allowing themselves to be panicked into these measures those governments have given bin Laden (and the chuckies) free ammunition to use against them. It's not entirely suprising though since the heavy protection of individual freedoms that those countries had in the past allowed terrorists and seditionists to set up camp unopposed in Britain particularly.

Although I think there's no chance of the orders being used up north as too much work has gone into things up there to be messed up by control orders.

jesus_thats_gre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Welcome to the home of democracy where the peoples human rights are adhered to

Shame it took 40 years of ignoring basic human rights on behalf of the various paramiltaries to bring it about..

Sand

The control orders are neccessary - Britain has been home to some of the most extremist sects and immans who have been radicalising marginalised British muslims, especially the youngest whose Asian Islam is being cast aside in favour of Arabic Islam, sponsored by the vast wealth of the House of Saud.

The democratic institutions, rights and indeed privledges of Britain and other democratic states need to be protected. Its a difficult balancing act between freedoms and the defence of those freedoms, but using tools that were designed to deal with either organised crime or at worst nationalistic terrorism to combat religious extremists recruiting for holy war against Britain and its people is the equivalent of square pegs and round holes.

I think European/American governments need to go a step further and disbar Saudi sponsored Immans or schools from their territory as law and instead finance them themselves. According to the Koran, all a government has to do to retain legitimacy in the eyes of Islam is to facilitate prayer. And I think we could all do better without a Saudi sponsored kulterkamp being waged in the Islamic community.

There is little chance of them being employed in the North unless SF/IRA are ****ing stupid enough to go back to what they know best. Which theyre not going to do because theyd be destroyed utterly as an organisation - all their current membership is good for is kidnapping bankers families and gutting men in pubs.

Balfa

Sand wrote:

The control orders are neccessary

This is nothing personal, but if that's your opinion, i hope that you're imprisoned without trial the next time you're in a country that sees that as constitutional. I hope the same fate for all people who feel any legislative branch should bypass any judicial branch anywhere in the world.

The_Conductor

gurramok wrote:

In Leeds, there is no history of armed resistance to the authorities.

Perhaps not armed resistance, though that is changing, rapidly......
Have a listen to 5 Live on an average evening- count the references to Hawksworth estate, Halton Moor, East End Park, Beeston, Belle Isle, Middleton, Bramley, Seacroft etc....
Law and Order are live and well in Belfast in comparison, believe you me I am not joking......

Sand

This is nothing personal, but if that's your opinion, i hope that you're imprisoned without trial the next time you're in a country that sees that as constitutional. I hope the same fate for all people who feel any legislative branch should bypass any judicial branch anywhere in the world.

No offence taken, I understand the point you're making. Its not something that should be embraced or viewed as the perfect solution, but if people are radicalising communities and recruiting terrorists for war against democratic nations and their freedoms then we need tools to defend ourselves with. The Dutch experience has seen one of the most liberal nations turned on its head by the recent strife and actions (and reactions to) of marginalised, radicalised Muslims influenced by Arab backed Immans who are crushing the development of a European Islam.

mrhankey88

people dont realise that the brittish are as bad as the IRA. If you were a northern catholic and the brittish treated u and your friends and family like scum then you IRA bashers might be singing a different tune.
Its all very easy shouting about the IRA and SF down here in the south with all the prodestant left-wing propenganda media we have here.
The brittish have as much blood on their hands as the IRA do, if you think otherwise you are a fool. They commet state-sponsored terrorism.
I do not 100% support the IRA, but i do see where their coming from, and some of thier actions recently - which the IRA has denied - is not acceptable, but in the grand sceme of things not as bad as the brittish cover-ups and murders..
I believe it should be the Irish Goverment fighting for a united Ireland, not the IRA, they need to protect our people in the north until we achieve the freedom...

Sand

The brittish have as much blood on their hands as the IRA do, if you think otherwise you are a fool.

As you can see below the British Army killed 297 people throughout the troubles, including 9 British security forces. The IRA killed 1706. Even if you added together *all* the British killings and *all* the Loyalist killings - because I know you guys reckon theyre one and the same - the total would still only be 1,383 killings - the IRA is still a comftable 323 killings out in front, single handed. Even if you want to go down to innocents, the British killed 152 non aligned. The IRA killed 516 non aligned.

Your statement that the British have as much blood on their hands as the IRA is.....inaccurate by practically any measure, though youll probably go on about "800 years of rape, theft and murder!!!!" next. You're not on the IRBB anymore. Youll have to do better than that.

[EDIT] You'll have to use the crosstabulation table to see the stats as its not possibly to directly link unfortunately. Organisation and Status Summary should do it [/EDIT]

mrhankey88

though youll probably go on about "800 years of rape, theft and murder!!!!" next.

Dont make a joke about that. My granmother had the black and tans come into her class room and beat her teacher, no lie.
I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

bonkey

mrhankey88 wrote:

are a disease on the irish nation

Just as the Irish nation is a disease on what we corrupted to become the Irish nation?

I'm guessing thats different though?

jc

BuffyBot

people dont realise that the brittish are as bad as the IRA. If you were a northern catholic and the brittish treated u and your friends and family like scum then you IRA bashers might be singing a different tune.

The problem is that people assume moving on from all of that equates to forgetting it - which is isn't. The sooner some people realise that, the better.

Lemming

mrhankey88 wrote:

I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...

The famine was exacerbated by the British. It was not created by the British however. Poor farming methods, an over-reliance on a single crop type, and bad luck were to blame. The plantations however, were a legacy of former British rule. But at what point does the son have to pay for the crimes of the father?

How many years have we had our own country? How many years does it take for us to stop blaming someone else, grow the f*ck up and take responsibility, as adults, for *our* own country?

I agree, we cannot, and should not, ever forget our history - at the same time we cannot wallow in it. I shall cite the matter of Northern Ireland as the prime example of how not to regard your history.

They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

WTF?!!!!!! Erm ... "crimes of the father" and what not springs to mind. :rolleyes:

Mercury_Tilt

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Zombrex

mrhankey88 wrote:

Dont make a joke about that. My granmother had the black and tans come into her class room and beat her teacher, no lie.
I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

Caused by British people who died hundreds of years ago.

Seriously, never forget, never forgive? What does that achieve? More hatred, more war, more death. If the British people we deal with now don't hold the views of their previous generations, then what purpose does it hold hating them?

Mercury_Tilt

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Lemming

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Oh agreed completely Merc. Both sides are equally guilty of the same thing here. Wallowing in history.

pogoń

mrhankey88 wrote:

They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us.

So, type in Irish then, no-ones stopping you.

Capt'n Midnight

gandalf wrote:

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

Disagree, Bin Laden has strengthened the power of the governments, it's handy to have a scapegoat/bogeyman when you want to rush stuff though.

And we're still a long way from the Special Powers Act (1922?) as was.

There are situations up north (omagh?) where the most likely suspects are know , perhaps through inadmisible wire taps or evidence gained with a warrant where one of the i's ain't dotted or whatever where it could be used.

maybe if people could sue for wrongful detention that might be one way to limit their use ( being proved innocent would be a different matter)

Internment or similar where large numbers of innocent people were locked up would be totally counter productive - but everyone knows that don't they at this stage.

Mercury_Tilt

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pogoń

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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It's part of my country (the UK):

I should know, I was born there.

Mercury_Tilt

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Lemming

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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To quote your good self Merc:

I believe it is in letting go of the 6 counties.

Now the question is, who makes the first step. And who gets it afterwards. To be honest, once the polarising influences are removed (heh .. like that's going to be easy) the moderate voices in the middle can be heard. That's when the future of the 6 counties can be decided. Most people just want to get on with their lives irrespective of which flag is flying from the mast.

I'd almost be happy seeing an independent state (as unfeasible as that is anyway) since it would remove both of the hardcore camps from the equation overnight. But sadly any viable solution wont be that simple.

Mercury_Tilt

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Moriarty

The only long term solution to the north that I can see is keeping the status quo for another twenty or thirty years, leaving a generation die off. Then people can start seriously talking about which way things should go, with a lot of them seperated by time from all the shít that went/goes on up there.

Who knows, a federal EU super state may be on the cards by then which would conveniently solve it all.

Balfa

Sand wrote:

if people are radicalising communities and recruiting terrorists for war against democratic nations and their freedoms then we need tools to defend ourselves with.

The tool of which you speak is called the judicial system.

Sleepy

mrhankey88 wrote:

Dont make a joke about that. My granmother had the black and tans come into her class room and beat her teacher, no lie.
I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

Hey kid, you're 16. You're still going through puberty and all those hormones make you the perfect target for propaganda. Not to worry, you'll grow out of this soon and learn to think for yourself.

Hanging offence, that sleepy.
See you in a week.

Lemming

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Sorry for the delay - sleep beckoned and what-not!!

There is no single silver bullet to this mess Merc, as well you know. I think for a start, an exact time-table for the decommissioning of arms, to coincide with the handover of political powers. A bit like a 'reward' system. Of course how does one prove that organisations X, Y, & Z have handed over everything. You can't, not without a great deal of intelligence work both before, during and after the event as come to pass. In that regard I think very harsh penalties should be put in place in the future likelihood of such duplicity getting revealed. What such penalties would be, I'm not sure - but monetary is not a good idea given how much money some of these organisations have. Perhaps withdrawal of political privelge or some such.

Note: I would also consider duplicity to include paramilitary involvement in otherwise 'traditional' criminal activity. A cease-fire is not an a-la-carte thing.

I would not limit this to SF/IRA, but to all parties involved, although I would consider SF/IRA to be the chief protagonists and focus attention appropriately.

As for people's attitudes, unfortunately they can't be changed overnight. Moriarty's little suggestion has an element of truth in it in that regard.

mrhankey88

Hey kid, you're 16. You're still going through puberty and all those hormones make you the perfect target for propaganda. Not to worry, you'll grow out of this soon and learn to think for yourself.

did i hit a raw nerve there "sleepy"?? Can you not come up with something better then that? If were playing the guessing game then your an 11 year old polish prostitute.

What purpose doe it hold them keeping part of our country? Why cant they just let it go as it were

What purpose??! Simple - More land for the bastards!

Mrhankey88-take a weeks break for that abuse

billy the squid

mrhankey88 wrote:

people dont realise that the brittish are as bad as the IRA. If you were a northern catholic and the brittish treated u and your friends and family like scum then you IRA bashers might be singing a different tune.

And if your brother and one of his mates were in a pub having a quiet pint and six or seven members of the IRA beat the crap out of the two of them, cutting one from neck to naval during the beating, your views on the IRA would also be different.

Its all very easy shouting about the IRA and SF down here in the south with all the prodestant left-wing propenganda media we have here.

bias in the media is a matter for the broadcasting complaints commission. you are free to take it up with them.

The brittish have as much blood on their hands as the IRA do, if you think otherwise you are a fool. They commet state-sponsored terrorism.
I do not 100% support the IRA, but i do see where their coming from, and some of thier actions recently - which the IRA has denied - is not acceptable, but in the grand sceme of things not as bad as the brittish cover-ups and murders

both sides are equally to blame in the troubles. but when one side says its on ceasefire, it should not be out robbing banks.

I believe it should be the Irish Goverment fighting for a united Ireland, not the IRA, they need to protect our people in the north until we achieve the freedom...

the only people who will bring about a united ireland are the residents of the north through a referendum. It is not the job of the Irish government to tell the majority of people living up there which country they want to live in.

I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation

who said anything about forgetting history. if we were to forget ll the things that happened in the north for the last forty years then we would be leaving outselves open to it all happenning all over again.

As was posted before. The famine was caused by a combination of things, poor farming practices, dependency on one crop,

calling a people of a certain nationality "a disease" is just being racist. and serves only to create hatred at a time when reconsilliation is a better idea.

me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us.

actualy many irish families forced their children to speak english so that they would be able to go to america during the famine. this was a choice that irish people made themselves, any attempt the brittish made to force english language onto the irish failed.

Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

with an attitude like this you are going to find yourself going around and around and around in a vicious little circle of hatred and you will accomplish nothing. things like the removal of section 31, the willingness of the irish and brittish governments to talk to extremists on both sides is a sign that it is time to get off the roundabout and move forward instead of passing hatred down to your children. if you hape that doing this will bring about a united ireland then your logic is seriously flawed.

the proof of this is the fact that the troubles in the north lasted so long.

oscarBravo

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Funny you should say that. I voted for an amendment to the constitution that was intended to have precisely that effect. The overwhelming majority in this republic did likewise.

Doesn't seem to have helped; there remain those who are determined to foist their vision of a united island on us, no matter what the cost in human misery.

CuLT

Patrick Kavanagh wrote:

Epic
I have lived in important places, times
When great events were decided, who owned
That half a rood of rock, a no-man's land
Surrounded by our pitchfork-armed claims.
I heard the Duffys shouting "Damn your soul!"
And old McCabe stripped to the waist, seen
Step the plot defying blue cast-steel -
"Here is the march along these iron stones."
That was the year of the Munich bother. Which
Was more important? I inclined
To lose my faith in Ballyrush and Gortin
Till Homer's ghost came whispering to my mind.
He said: I made the Iliad from such
A local row. Gods make their own importance.

This is what we fight over, and it all seems so depressingly pathetic when put into perspective...

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

As long as this was genuinely adhered to I don't see the problem tbh. Might make the North a safer place if the "fringe elements" are taken out.

lol

yeah it worked so well in the 70s there was hardly any trouble up there

Sand

I think you will find that the britsih army killed a lot more than that during the troubles period.

I can off hand think of at least another 250.

Ah, another battle in the age old David and Goliath struggle between properly sourced arguments, backed up by demonstratable statistics paired off against the knowledge of a single poster and unsourced, unsupported dismissals of respectable sources.

Hell, for the sake of argument Ill allow you that extra 250 only you know about. The IRA is still *WAY* out in front. By roughly what, 1200? Gwan, throw in 800 years of rape, theft and murder while youre at it.

As for blood on their hand.. do bloody noses count? And what about people put through the prison systems.



Your blinkered views are just that Sand

.

Oh thats just ****ing hilarious - I didnt even bother looking for statistics on IRA punishment beatings and the people put through the IRA justice system. I didnt think Id actually need to bother given the IRA death threats against 13 year olds, the unusually high incidence of suicide by young males in IRA "policed" areas, abduction/torture/murder of mothers and murdering of men outside pubs which have all been in the news recently. You know what? I still dont need to bother. Blinkered views? Your post sounds likes an excerpt from a Wolfe Tones ballad.

Funny you should say that. I voted for an amendment to the constitution that was intended to have precisely that effect. The overwhelming majority in this republic did likewise.

Doesn't seem to have helped; there remain those who are determined to foist their vision of a united island on us, no matter what the cost in human misery.

Agreed. The provos have become a sort of religious cult, where "the cause" has become far, far more important than *any* other consideration.

Mercury_Tilt

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AmenToThat

Sand wrote:

As you can see below the British Army killed 297 people throughout the troubles, including 9 British security forces. The IRA killed 1706. Even if you added together *all* the British killings and *all* the Loyalist killings - because I know you guys reckon theyre one and the same - the total would still only be 1,383 killings - the IRA is still a comftable 323 killings out in front, single handed. Even if you want to go down to innocents, the British killed 152 non aligned. The IRA killed 516 non aligned.

Now theres logic for you....................

British army + loyalists (1383) = good guys
IRA (1706) = bad guys

Hobbes

Another thing to point out is that the IRA wouldn't of gotten the support it did in the 70's if it wasn't for the illegal actions of British Soliders.

Nice to have a scoreboard though. Means no Irish people can whine if the British kill a few more, after all we owe them that? Its not like civil liberties and being treated as a second class citizen in your own country didn't have any say in the matter?

Lemming

AmenToThat wrote:

Now theres logic for you....................

British army + loyalists (1383) = good guys
IRA (1706) = bad guys

Care to point out the post where anyone used the term "good/bad guys"??

Lemming

Hobbes wrote:

Another thing to point out is that the IRA wouldn't of gotten the support it did in the 70's if it wasn't for the illegal actions of British Soliders.

Tragically, quite correct.

Its not like civil liberties and being treated as a second class citizen in your own country didn't have any say in the matter?

At what point could any of that condone the sickening acts that have been carried out over the course of the troubles? I might also point out that it was not the British army that instigated that state of affairs but the ruling Loyalist elite which is why London took control of Stormont away from them. But by then the seeds had already been planted and the damage done. The army presence eventually went from keeping the peace to deteriorated into aggrivating the situation when the IRA became more and more active, culminating with Bloody Sunday.