Bedroom Electronica- advice please..

condra

Hey.

OK well I just splashed out on a new laptop [Inspiron 5160] and am using Sonar with some VSTs to make a few simple looping chillout tunes. Ive been using Sonar for about 6 months now and my setup is starting to feel a little rigid.

I want to extend my setup so I can record my softsynths live from a keyboard, aswell as potentially mic up my mate on guitar and get some good active speakers sorted.

Im a hardware noob and I would greatly appreciate any advice on what I should buy and where I should buy it.

More specifically:

Would a good soundcard and MIDI controller keyboard be a better idea than a MIDI controller keyboard with its own built in interface.
What I have in mind at the moment is Audiophile 2496 and an edirol controller keyboard.
If I get a MIDI controller keyboard with a built in interface does this mean I can use the audio out on that to hook up to some good speakers?

What kinda speakers should I be thinkin about to improve my setup?
I have about 100 quid for speakers.

Are there any good suppliers CC or north of the liffey? or indeed any good sites for trading second hand music equip other than this one.

My total budget is about 300.


TIA
womoma

condra

i was looking at this:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudiophileUSB-main.html
http://www.waltons.ie/product/kind.php?id=910

would you call this an external soundcard? :rolleyes: and could I use that to hook up to some powerfull speakers?

As far as keyboard goes- I was lookin at this:

http://www.waltons.ie/product/kind.php?id=1010
http://waltons.ie/product/images/06cmau-evmk449c.jpg

What kinda combo would that make?

any advice mucho appreciato

clay

howdy - I'm kind of a novice at this stuff myself, so I probably can't offer you much insight other than to tell you about my own set up.

I use cubase sx with a terratec phase 26 usb and a roland dummy keyboard. I think the soundcard is roughly equivalent to the audiophile one you were looking at except the terratec has a mic in as well as line in and optical (which is essential for guitars and vocals if you're not going through a desk). I find it really good, great sound and versatile too. Picked it up on ebay for around 200 euro. The roland I have for years, I think it was about 100 quid. I think the only good reason to get a keyboard with its own sound module is if you particularly like the sounds...personally I think the right soft synths offer much better value and infinitely more versatility.

As I say, probably no major news flashes there but ebay is definitely worth checking out for soundcards.
By the way how are you as a keyboard player?

condra

hey thanks for your post.

Im probably getting the controller keyboard during the week. I was planning on the 49 key radium but the more i look at the 61 key radium the more tempted I am to spend that bit extra for the extra octive.

I will probably some time in the future buy a synth of some sort. I have a yamaha psr 170- you know the type- 49 keys, 200 "voices" , makes mostly tacky shiddy sounds..but I do really like the piano sound from it and enjoy playing it. I imagine its lovely to play a more sophisticated keyboaord.

I wont have money for a sound card for another week or two after that. Ill keep an eye out in ebay etc.
I just discovered Ableton Live and believe I may be in love.

Im a **** keyboard player. i cant read music and I use the wrong fingers. Im a gifted bastard tho. heheh only kiddin- i didnt mean that, just thought it would sound funny.
I am ****ing brilliant though.
Only joking.

clay

well for a genius musicain you gots te have that extra octive, switching up and down is such a drag!
You rate Ableton Live better than Sonar??! Have you tried it out?
Anyhow if you're interested in making some cash from those wrong fingers of yours get in touch. Even competent keyboarders are worth their weight in gold these days...(how much do you weigh?)

condra

Hey.

You rate Ableton Live better than Sonar??!

Nope. I love sonar and Ive only been tryin Abletion Live for a couple of days. Live can be used as a palatte for ideas, you can quickly audition loops together and all editing is nondestructive. If you havent tried it out already I would reccommend it- to anyone, it could be usefull to DJs or bands alike and its so so easy to set up and pick up. It actually complements Sonar quite well.

Regarding makin cash playin keyboard- Im presuming youre talking about some sort of performance orientated work, which rules me out. Im currently out of work with a condition called M.E. so wont be back 100% any time soon. The music thing is simply a hobby for my "good days".

What kinda music u involved in anyways? as a matter of interest.
Im probably goin shoppin later. still not sure between 49 and 61 as there is a good 80 euro price difference and Ill be lookin to buy a good external soundcard soon...

condra

i was very tempted by:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/Keystation61es-main.html
but in the end i went for
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/Radium61-main.html

It was easy to set up and Im having so much fun with it already. yeeaaaaay.

_CreeD_

For live play effective Latency will be your biggest concern. The Audiophile should be fine for this. If you do want to upgrade your sound quality (Although it is already high with that card) and add the ability to throw some hardware accelerated FX onto your output have alook at the EMU 0404/1212m cards. The 1212m has better DAC/ADC's but both do hardware acceleration of their own FX (Which are decent, though not up to the Sonitus class you already have with Sonar) - if you need more IO (Mic/Headphone pre-amp/amps etc) try the 1820m.
Having a controller with integrated audio offers you no benefits, bar simplicity, as the midi data still has to go to the PC and then back to the audio interface.
Actually one of the single best things you could do right now would be invest in a good set of audio monitors and maybe some simple accoustic treatments for your room. All the interface quality, soft synth variety and performance in the world won't do you much good if you have a bad listening environment (which of course all bedroom studios are ).

condra

HEY HEY!

Creed cheers for the input.
Im on laptop so need external card. Cant seem to find external versions of 404/1212. Right now the audiophile looks most suitable for my needs. The 1820m looks like a bit of an animal - Ill look into that one alright.

Other than Waltons with its limited variety, I wonder where else might one buy a sound card in Dublin? I have to check out Music Maker Exchequer street one of these days. AFIK they do soundcards there.. :rolleyes:

Regarding monitors- As far as I was aware, decent studio monitors are connected with different jacks [whatjamay-call-its] -not the standard headphone jack on my laptop so I was planning on getting the speaker system after getting the decent soundcard with appropriate ports..

Right now Im using some old Packard Bell speakers which although not ideal, are far better than the shiddy built in speakers on my laptop. I do get your point though. I got a pair of decent [Bang & Olufson] headphones today and they make everything sound totally different to my speakers or my old headphones. Im hearing and feeling bass sounds I didnt know where there before!

Does anyone use wireless headphones and are they any use?

I do have an old pair of Sansui speakers from an old stacked hifi system from back in the day when my folks had cash to throw about. Before the old HiFi passed away and was replaced with a piece of shiddy Alba [tsput], they were capable of pretty good sound.
Theyre mad heavy. Dimensions about 2'x1'x1' so big enuff.
They simply have twin wire out the back of them but maybe there is a way of working around this.. would it be worth my while?
This is what is says on the label:

Sansui
2-way speaker system
impedance- 8 ohms
max input - 35 watts
made in w.germany

Notice the "w" . . these speakers are probably about 20 years old if my memory serves me right.
If I could get those speakers goin rather than buying some speakers I would be well chuffed. Im very attached to them too. Not literally of course.

Do they need some sort of amplifier.?

Sorry for my lack of audio hardware savvy.

Regarding the room and acoustic treatments, are you talking about removing echos with soft material to dampen the sounds and that sort of thing?

I am considering converting the spare room to a dedicated music room [i darent say "studio" just yet!] Its smaller than my bedroom but I could do a proper job of it over time. I know acoustics wouldnt be much different than any other room but I think a dedicated room would be much better than the corner of my already crammed room.

peace

condra

There is some software came with the synth including a demo of reason etc etc but some full software which Im not sure about.

Does anyone know anything about Sonic foundry acid express and siren express.. I get the feeling its pretty worthless cutdown software.

I think theres a full version of antares auto tune tho.. ill check it out..

Ardent

womoma wrote:

i was very tempted by:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/Keystation61es-main.html
but in the end i went for
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/Radium61-main.html

It was easy to set up and Im having so much fun with it already. yeeaaaaay.

The 61es Keystation is what I have my eye on. How much did they quote you for it in Waltons? Anyone have experience of this controller?

condra

hey- it was about 250 in waltons as far as i remember. not many knobs or sliders but it feels great to play if youre used to a piano.

so anyone know anything about speakers ? [re above]

_CreeD_

Whoops, brain glitch, completely ignored the laptop part.
Okay firstly......GET A DESKTOP!....laptops are poo for audio....but yes I know it may not be feasable .
If you do go for an external audio interface try for Firewire over USB2 (and only go for USB1 as a last resort). Both USB2 and Firewire have similar spec.s on paper (Yes I know USB2 is rated a little faster) but Firewire has a higher realworld throughput and noticabley lower cpu usage when in operation.
Studio monitors, and you'll want Near Fields, may have XLR but will always also have TRS (Standard 'headphone' style ) inputs so that won't be an issue. Mixing on headphones is also a bad idea. Tracking on them is fine but for the final product you want to be using speakers as Cans block out a lot of realworld accoustic effects like phase cancellation etc., aswell as just sounding different panwise. I know this is all limited by budget or circumstance (after saying all that I mix on my Cans now mostly due to sound 'issues' at home but I have an idea of how they equate to the monitors and adjust a little for that). You can get accoustic dampening foam reasonably cheaply if you look around. You don't have to get anything fancy to start with, just some 1/2" sheets maybe to work on your corners and behind the speakers first, it will make quite a difference in accuracy, also isolate your speakers from the desk.

condra

Hi Creed- thanks for the post.

GET A DESKTOP!....

Not after spending over a grand on this laptop. Can you explain in more detail why laptops are poo for audio? My new laptop has a 3.2 Ghz P4 an pisses all over my old P4 desktop as far as general performance goes.
Ive been told I would be better off with an external 7200 hard drive if I am planning on recording live audio ...which Im not.
Re firewire interface- Ill prob have to go firewire as my lappy only has 2xUSB and 1xfirewire. The 2 USBs are occupied with my MIDI keyboard and my essential mouse. I could only really get USB interface if it has a USB port for my mouse as I cannot work with touchpad.

Mixing on headphones is also a bad idea

so i hear. Ill try not to.

Im still wondering how I might get those big old speakers goin..?
Would it be possible to wire those twin wires [attached pic] into some sort of connection or possible an amp?

condra

yaay ableton live is kool

spod

Try http://www.musictechnology.ie/

They are based in the city centre, but don't have a showroom. You e-mail/ring them to see what they have in stock, or discuss what you want. They'll get the best price they can and order the stuff in for you.

I got a very handy laptop starter bundle from them last summer. An oxygen 8, a 4 in 4 out external usb soundcard, and a copy of cubase se for €249 I think. The oxygen 8 also came with a copy of Reason Adapted.

It was a special deal they had so they had it in stock so I could collect that evening. My flatmate ordered a bunch of gear from them just after xmas. He had to wait about a fortnight for the guitar to arrive but everything else arrived within about 5 days.

As for monitor speakers, if you only have a budget of €100 for them you might be better off buying a pair of good reference/engineers headphones.
Otherwise save up for a bit longer and get a decentish pair. A friend of mine got a pair of M Audio BX5 stuidophiles from thomann (thomann.de) and they're very nice, quite tempted to buy a pair myself.

If it wasn't down at the minute, thumped.com might be worth checking out. They have some good home recording and gear for sale/wanted forums.

condra

hey!
THanks for the 2 kool links.
Ill probably just save more to get decent speakers. FIrst tho I think an external soundcard, then speakers.. ?

Bazz

Try Propellerheads Reason, you would need a MIDI keyboard though. It's a complex programme but basically it's a studio on your Desktop (Which might suit your needs better). Cubase is a good programme but is very limited in its resources.

Reason costs between 500 and 600 euro or you could find a cracked copy. The sample library is built into it. A MIDI Keyboard would cost you around €200 for a Roland, and up.

Don't go nuts on a plethora of software programmes, choose one and work with it.

condra

Hey Bazz.

As much as I hate paying for software, Reason is one package I would pay for.

Im trying it out at the moment [i downloaded a beta version of R3 in which I cant save] and will weigh up my options after I get my head around it more.

There doesnt seem to be much I can do in reason that I cant do elsewhere such as in Sonar and Ableton Live but the appeal of Reason is in its "all in 1" feel.

Its a shame it doesnt support VSTs, but it can always be used as a rewire device with Sonar. Come to think of it, I can probably use the beta as a rewire device and save the audio in Sonar when required.. interesting!!- edit - yeah just tried that- i can do that- so I have plenty of use with this beta as long as it doesnt run out- AFIK I have to restart it every 20 minutes but at least it doesnt add noise to the mix..
hmmm .. that really cheered me up just now!!

I have no interest in Cubase/FL studio. Sonar is my sequencer of choice.

RE midi keyboard- I recently bought Radium 61k- I love it.

RE

Don't go nuts on a plethora of software programmes, choose one and work with it.

Yeah youre probably right - Ive been trying out so much different stuff in the last month I havent made any tunes at all! I will settle into things a bit more some time but I just need to gather my tools first. You never know- I may fall for Reason as so many people seem to do.

plethora

great word that.

condra

quick question about reason-
The knob action [no willy jokes please] is a bit jittery. I wonder is this part of a restriction in the beta version or possibly just the way Reason is.. or perhaps a redraw/RAM issue indicating I need more power...??
I have a p4 3.2 GHz with 512 RAM ... task manager tells me Reason is using about 50MB RAM at any time which would have thought to be ok..
Basically the if Im turning a knob from say 01 to 66 it will kinda graphically jump rather than animate smoothly-it sounds fine but it looks naff.. and its kinda frustrating..I wonder is this normal in Reason?

Megadude

I got REASON 2.5 about six months ago. And its changed the way I make music completely. ANYTHING is possible. Its got its own mixing desk on screen, you can add as many drum machines, samplers or synths as you want, you can save your fades, pans, phasers, distortions,chorus, delays, reverbs, eq's as automation info. I don't use any other programs now except for sound forge to cut up wav files. You need a USB midi keyboard. The sound library is pure class and you can download as many new instruments (refills) from the creators (www.propellerheads.se) as possible. Its worth the money (about 500 or 600 euro.

Megadude

womoma wrote:

quick question about reason-
The knob action [no willy jokes please] is a bit jittery. I wonder is this part of a restriction in the beta version or possibly just the way Reason is.. or perhaps a redraw/RAM issue indicating I need more power...??
I have a p4 3.2 GHz with 512 RAM ... task manager tells me Reason is using about 50MB RAM at any time which would have thought to be ok..
Basically the if Im turning a knob from say 01 to 66 it will kinda graphically jump rather than animate smoothly-it sounds fine but it looks naff.. and its kinda frustrating..I wonder is this normal in Reason?

You got a dodgy cracked copy maybe, its never happened on mine.

condra

Hey Megadude. Kool name.

Thanks for your input. Im lovin the amount of interest in this thread.

What I have is a Beta version of Reason 3 in which Im not allowed to save. I believe the non-smooth knobs and faders animation may be just part of the Beta as Ive read before that some betas are made to work slower than the finished article. Apart from the inability to save, the jittery knob action is a major frustration- great for Propellorheads- shiddy for cheeky lil me!!

Im pretty sure I could get my hands on a second hand version of 2.5 for about 100 quid considering version 3 is out now. I dont think Id want to pay much more than that. Seemingly, v3 didnt add a huge amount to 2.5 so I wouldnt suffer too much "kit envy" with 2.5 for a while at least..

I understand your enthusiasm for Reason- Ive read many good things about Reason. I dont know if its worth my while learning a whole new package when I have yet to get fully to grips with Sonar and Ableton Live.

Maybe when I get my soundcard, speakers, RAM and desk, then Ill consider buying Reason.

Id be interested if anyone else has anything else to contribute to the discussion.

Ardent

I use Cubase SX 2.2 and I have to say - it's the balls! I work mainly in midi files, haven't tinkered around too much with audio recording, but it's a cracking software program, very powerful. Love the whole VST plugin feature as well, convert your midi tracks to samples, apply effects to your audio etc. I see version 3 is out but I don't see any reason to upgrade, very happy with 2.

Never used Reason but my advice is you can't go wrong with Steinberg/Cubase.

condra

Hey.
Ardent- I believe Cubase is pretty cool but Im happy with Sonar as far as a sequencer and VST host goes.
[redneck accent] Its uh-also what Im used to usin. [end of redneck accent]

Megadude- I have a demo of Reason 1 [yes 1] which I discovered in the archives- I installed it and yes indeed- the knob action is perfect.
Now I have an out of date demo of Reason 1 which quits after 20 minutes, and a demo of the seemingly excellent Reason 3 with frustratingly slow and restricted control animation.
So now Im on a mission to get my hands on a full copy of Reason 2.5. Ive bidded for a copy on ebay for 40 quid so Im praying no1 outbids me in the next 2 days and 7 hours.
This new Reason obsession has completely put a halt to my progession. I feel I cant move on now until I have Reason sorted. Its strange and its pissin me off. I dont even like Reasons sequencer but theres something about Reason..hmm..

Regarding cracked copies - Reason is notoriously difficult to crack because you need the origional Orkester and soundbank CDs, and many of the so called cracks available are virus' or simply dont work. I have a strange admiration for Propellerheads for their achievement in having one of the best pirate protected packages around.
Although the price of the software doesnt reflect the fact that hardly anyone is using illegal copies of it.. - it would make you wonder about the whole "piracy puts up prices" arguement...

Im so pissed off at the whole "cant buy online without a credit card, 24 hour banking sucks and paypal cant accept bank transfers" ... situation.. it really pisses me off to be honest -how difficult it is to purchasr goods online.
I would have tought by now there would be a way to buy some fcuking e-money in a newsagents or pay using phone credit or something. god damn credit cards.
.. ok rant over..

Bazz

Your computer specs sound fine to run Reason. It's more than likely the restrictiveness as you said, in the beta version. Fiddling with knobs takes practice too remember

condra

downloaded a demo of R3 and it works great .. it quits after 20 minutes but i cant get a feel for it which is nice.