The O'Hara Family

K2

Co Meath parents reunited with children
March 12, 2005 12:15

The Co Meath couple whose five children were taken into care by the Health Service Executive last week have been reunited with them.

After a nine-and-a-half hour court hearing yesterday, a judge rejected an application to have their care order extended.

Parents Padraig and Mary O'Hara said they were delighted with the ruling.

The Irish Society for Autism also welcomed the ruling and said justice had been done.
__________________________________________________________

I was very saddened and angry to hear about the treatment of this family at the hands of the HSE, so much so that I finally got up off my ass and did something, and can I suggest you do likewise if you feel the same;

send a polite but firm email to the HSE on their website www.hebe.ie in the contact us section. I have asked them if the people responsible for making the decision to remove these children from their home will receive any training or whether they are still employed. I don't expect much of a reply but as organisations like amnesty have show a little bit of pressure can yield positive results.

I cannot claim to be an expert on autism but I know enough to know that breaking the routine is simply something you don't do. One of the worries I would have is that this action was taken by the HSE to shut the parents up! And as somebody who has to fight, push and shove to get the things my son is entitled to it adds a sinister dimension to dealing with the health boards/hse.

Amz

Thanks for your post K2.

The treatment of this family was absolutely disgraceful. I have two neighbours with Autistic children so I'm somewhat familiar with what is involved. Having spoken to these neighbours about the current treatment of the O'Haras this type of treatment isn't that extrordinary.

I've already written to the HSE and others in response to this and I would encourage other people to do the same. It's not enough for the media to highlight it every now and then, but the HSE needs to know that the general public have a problem with this too.

MorningStar

While I feel the treatment of the family was terrible the family have to take some responsibility. They have said on national radio and television they said they were driving with little or no sleep. That means they are a danger to themselves and others on the road in the same way a drunk driver is. If they still do this the children should be taken off them for the safety of others not just the children. Don't forget the Leeds train that was derailed due to one sleepless night of one car driver. These people are doing this repeatedly
While my knowledge of autisim is limited I think to keep on having children after your first three are special needs is irresponsible. Let alone having two additional children. I guess there could be religious beliefs but I would suspect they would have more children at this point if that was the case

K2

Hi MorningStar
do a little research and you will see that they did not find out about their children having autism until they were all born!

MorningStar

K2 wrote:

Hi MorningStar
do a little research and you will see that they did not find out about their children having autism until they were all born!

I know that but they didn't have 5 kids at once. As far as I know you can 't tell about autisim for sure untill the child is 2 and up.They had one child who has asburgess syndrome (sp?). Then they had a child who was autistic not sure when they found out, then another child who was autistic , again and then again. As far as I remember there is at least ten year spread on the kids. Anybody having 5 kids should only do so knowing they can care for them. They would at least known they had three children who were special needs prior to the 5th. If there is more detail I am not aware off fair enough.

They are still a risk on the roads and a danger to their own kids.

Amz

And why do you think it is that they have to go for long periods without sleep?

They're not receiving adequate help from anyone! It ws only when their situation was raised within the media that the HSE decided their children weren't being looked after properly.

I'm sure the parents are the first to admit that it's impossible to give all of the children the specialised care they require. They were doing the best with what little resources were available to them.

I still believe the HSE handled this extremely badly.

I don't believe you know enough about the situation to adequately comment. Firstly you don't seem to know enough about Autism.

I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone. I'm sure they didn't expect to have other children with Autism and as such calling them irresponsible is unfair in my opinion.

I haven't time write a proper response at the moment.

MorningStar

I also agree the HSE have handled this badly but I think the parent have some responsibility. Just because their life is hard doesn't mean they are not responsible for their actions.
Regardless of why they felt the need to drive they were a risk to other road users and themselves. This is irresponsible. I think a mother doing something similar for her sons medical care crashed last year. Not sure on the details.
I don't know a whole lot about autism. I am sure they didn't plan on 5 children with special needs. My point is they would have at least known that the 3 of their kids were special needs prior to having more. I am sure they did not think they would have another special needs kids but to have ANY other children was at least questionable. My comments are not about the condition just the parents choices.
While it also seems a little heartless I think it is valid to question the parents choices. THe HSE have acted terribly but if somebody says on national media "I am putting my children at risk" they have to do something. They did the wrong thing.

K2

Hi MorningStar,
afaik they had four children before it was noticed by them and their doctor that their first born was developing problems, so to say they were irresponsible to have five kids is an ill thought out opinion. I would really like to engage you re your other immature opinion on sleep deprivation and driving as I have first hand experience of this but i reckon that a. it will develope into a pointless arguement and b. I have legal reasons for not giving personal details out on the internet.

oh and the case you mentioned was a mother killed bringing her child to a language therapist. I would guess that you don't have any children yourself cos if you did you would realise that you would do anything for them...even if it cost you your job, home, marriage, your 05 car or whatever else you considered important.

MorningStar

If they never knew any of their children were special needs while they were still having children that is a valid arguement. Then it shuts that point but is that the case for sure? The kids ages looked pretty diverse that's why I questioned it and it is reasonable to ask questions.
To drive a car without enough sleep is dangerous. What ever the reason it is dangerous. If somebody stayed up late to talk to their girlfriend or take care of their child and the drove they are just as much a risk on the road. Your personal desires and wants should not allow you to risk others lives. The fact somebody does it for their children does not change the point. Your argument seems to be that you are allowed to put your childrens' lives in danger because you think their education is more important.
The fact a mother has managed to kill herself and child (were more killed?) for speech theropy really does seem to prove my point that it is unsafe.
Being a parent should not give you the right to put others at risk or your own child.
I am not trying to argue and just because I think differently to you it doesn't make me immature. I have not insulted you personally and I'd appreciate the same.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/09/20/sleep.deprivation/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/selby/story/0,7369,609756,00.html

You can refer to a friend to avoid legal issues

K2

No offence intended but try and be balanced in your thinking. Ask yourself why these parents run themselves ragged, why the health service are not providing the services that we all, you included, are entitled to under our constitution and what is being done to help them. To be reckless is not excused because it's for the care or good of your child but there can often be a good reason for having to (ie not having any other choice). Also you mention education, why? The case you mentioned was a daily trip this woman and her child took every day, mon to fri, to try and get her child speaking. That's more medical than educational, she had to travel long distances as there were no therapists made available by her health board and so she had to go private. I'm sure she did not want to harm herself or anyone else (afaik nobody else was hurt/killed) but she did want to do all that could be done for her child. Unfortunately she may have pushed herself too far.

Yes, I agree that to drive while tired is not a good idea, but it is not akin to drink driving or speeding - after saying that I have seen a programme where it was proved, unscientifically, that it was more dangerous than drink driving.

As mentioned earlier, do some research, I'm not trying to be a smartarse or patronagise you, but it may change your opinion on some of your ideas re autism. It should also give you an insight into what this family go thro on a daily basis, every single day with no end to it.

MorningStar

I know why they are doing it. I know the health care is failing them. I know the parents feel they have no choice. I have a great deal of compasion for the people in this situation. As I said my views aren't about autism but the parents choices.
From the bit of knowledge I have of the family and autism it seems they would have known. I'll take your word that they wouldn't have known while they continued to have children. I thought you tended to know by 2 especially in extreme cases by maths and logic I was guessing the family knew they had three kids with special needs before having the 5th.
"The O'Hara's oldest son, Fionn, 16.The other four children Oisin, 13; Blaine, 9; Seadna, 5 and 4-year-old Cionnaola have autism"
Fionn is both dyslexic and has asburgus syndrome (Sp?). Very hard to identify both in combination as they will mask each other. They didn't notice a 9 year old and a 5 year old had autism before having a 5th child? It's possible but does sound a little hard to believe. If they didn't know then the parents didn't make the bad choice I thought they made. I had assumed they knew as it is a concern of so many parents which is probably unfair on the parents.

I do believe driving without enough sleep on a continual basis is as dangerous as drink driving. I even included links saying so. If you read them and don't agree with the point do a simple search on the net and you will see the dangers of sleep deprivaton on driving. I doubt you will find anything saying it is safe but you will find a few saying it is as bad or worse than drink driving.

If even one head person in the HSE had heard the media reports on the family and believed as I do about sleep deprivation they would investigatigate the case. The HSE then acted terribly but the driving alone seems to be a valid reason to question the parents.
If you don't believe it is a risk then I guess you won't accept the point. You may be able to justify the risk for your children if you see it as a risk. If somebody regualrly drink drives with their kids people would be outraged regardless of the benifits for the kids. I don't see the difference regardless of my emotional feels on the subject.

K2

Hi MorningStar,
I think you may have confused yourself over what the issues here are, the children were not taken away because their parents were driving while tired. The extract below is a media report on the case. In fact I think you may have missed the whole point of my original post.
___________________________________________________

Judge says five children can be returned to their parents
Carl O'Brien, Social Affairs Correspondent


Five children who were taken into State care a week ago were last night due to be reunited with their parents in Kells, Co Meath, following a court battle against the local health authority.

Amid jubilant scenes at Trim District Court last night, Pádraig and Mary O'Hara expressed relief that their "week-long nightmare" was over and said they were delighted at the outcome of their case.

The Health Service Executive (North Eastern Area) sought to place the couple's children - four of whom are autistic - in State care a week ago against the parents' wishes. Mr and Mrs O'Hara had been giving media interviews at the time complaining about the lack of support services for their children.

Following an eight-hour private sitting of Trim District Court yesterday, Judge David Anderson dismissed an interim care order taken out by the health authority.

The HSE, which had insisted the parents undergo a psychiatric assessment before any attempt could be made to reunite them with their children, declined to comment last night.

The health authority's treatment of the couple prompted criticism this week from campaigners and support groups. Independent MEP Kathy Sinnott called for an apology from the HSE.

Following the outcome of the case last night, Mr and Mrs O'Hara hugged tearful family members and friends at the courthouse. In a statement read by their solicitor, Roger Murray, they expressed delight with the ruling and thanked their friends and supporters.

The O'Hara's family doctor and chairman of the Irish Society for Autism, Dr James Hayes, said he was ecstatic at the outcome. "This frightful event should never have occurred," he said. "Whatever the crisis, there are other ways of dealing with it. Justice has been done and the family have been reunited."

Arrangements were being made last night to reunite the children with their parents. The parents agreed on Friday of last week to let the children be put in respite care on a voluntary basis after social workers and gardaí arrived at their home with a care order seeking to commit the children to State care.

Fionn (16), who is dyslexic, Oisín (13) and Blain (9), who are autistic, have been staying at a guesthouse in Drogheda for the last week. Seadna (5) and Cionnaola (4) have been staying at a residential unit without any contact with their parents.

Irish Autism Alliance chairman Cormac Rennick said the group had lodged a formal complaint about the treatment of the parents.

He said the O'Haras were "dedicated and devoted parents" whose lives revolved around the care of their children.

Ms Sinnott said: "We have to have an apology from the HSE and an assurance that this will never happen again. Taking away your children is the worst threat the State can make."

The HSE was represented in court yesterday by a four-person legal team along with a number of health authority officials who gave evidence during the court sitting.

---

(you may have noticed that not all their children are austic.)

MorningStar

Generally my point was the parents were not questioned by the media. The parents decided to bring this to the media and then it was brought on as a pity story on the news.
I brought two points up that I thought were worth asking.
It does appear the parents were unaware of their childrens conditions as such when they continued their family. (from other post*)
While on the radio and TV the mentioned many things I thought were worth of investigation. One of which was the driving which I focused on. They did repeatedly say they couldn't cope and they were on anti-depressants.
The HSE acted terribly but by bringing it to the media the family kind of forced the situation.
What did they think would happen when they brought it to the media. I can only guess they were hoping to spur action from the HSE. They did and didn't like the outcome.
I still think the driving is terrible. They want a system of scocial conscience to work for them but do not act socially responsibly when it comes to driving. I know I seem to be harsh but what if they crashed into your family and killed them becasue of the drive they choose to do for the good of their children?

I am guessing you or somebody close to you maybe in a simlar driving situation?

*There is another post about actually cover the family size and other issues but I didn't see any mention of driving and sleep.

** Some reports have mentioned the eldest having dyslexia and others don't but I heard the parents say he had asburges syndrom (it's like a high functioning autism) and dyslexia. Both can be hard to diagnose and some people don't find out till in their 40's and later.

K2

In your first post you said the parents had to take some responsibilty for the way the hse handled the situation ie take their children away, and then you picked up on two issues - driving and having 5 children. Personally I think you are wrong about both, esp. about having 5 kids but there's no point in flogging a dead horse at this stage. Also, you have failed to realise that these people felt they had to bring their case to the media as the health boards were not doing enough or in this particular case it appeared that they were being heavy handed in an attempt to shut them up. So while you think this was a terrible thing to happen they were partly responsible for it?

You may not know it but the O'Haras have being campaging (and this includes using the media) for quite some time for adequate services, which is why some people, myself included, feel the recent action of the HSE was an attempt to bully them. This is why I put up my original post, the very agency which is supposed to help these people is doing the opposite.

Amz

Sorry, just an aside, but I might copy this thread to Humanities if K2 has no objections? This is an interesting topic and it probably isn't getting as much exposure on this forum as it might do over there.

K2

Not a problem for me, in fact it may encourage others to email the HSE. On that note I might mention I did receive a reply. It was only a quick note to say they would pass my questions and concerns onto the hse area involved but she was good enough to give her name so I should be able to follow it up if I don't get a real reply.

Amz

At least they acknowledged it I guess.

K2

Yes I was surprised too. I thought they would have just put on the hard hats and weathered it out. I still don't expect much will happen but maybe, just maybe this family will finally begin to receive the support and assistance they so desperatley need if the HSE realise that joe public is not happy with what they did.

Sometimes it gets so fustrating when you consider all the money which has been wasted on things like the bertie bowl and e-voting (and is still being wasted) and the areas it could be spent in. Not just health but in education and law enforcement - the three areas politicians get nailed on each time they vist the doorsteps at election time.

Rant over, I'll not say anymore except to apologise to MorningStar if I was rude.

Amz

I've copied the thread to humanities, but you'll have to keep an eye on the thread there to see any new replies.

MorningStar

The parents did a major media blitz TV3, Radio1, newstalk and the Independent that I saw. This was going to have results it didn't have the one the initially hoped for. Again I say the HSE acted terribly but what did they ideally wanted them to do? If somebody says on national media "We can't cope" and "We are on anti-depresants as a result". THe organisation meant to be taking care of these children better do something. The case is private and ultimately the HSE did not take the children away but took them into forced tempory respite (read this somewhere could be wrong). The mental state of the parents may have truely been in question. It may have been best to give the parents a break. The kids haven't been killed in a car crash for example. You don't know I don't know but health proffesional are more likely to be able to check this than me and,unless you assesed them, you.


I never gave out about the fact they just decided to have 5 children. I thought it was irresponsible to have children into a situation where by you can't take care of them. As they didn't know at the time I conceed the point that they weren't. However I am basing that on the fact somebody said they only found out in 2004 so they haven't been compagining that long if that is true. SO I am doubting they just found out now anybody got facts?

I provided information about how dangerous driving while sleep deprived is. You seem to just dismiss this in the same way that drink drivers did in the 70's. The fact that it has happend here too should really point it out.