Fine Gael and the Tricolour

spiderbeast

Last weekend at the Bi-Elections it was really weird to see Fine Gael supporters waving the tricolour especially as there were Sinn fein supporters in the same room.

Where Fine Gael taking the piss?

aodh_rua

Fine Gael are perfectly entitled to embrace our national flag. And while they did support the commonwealth before the 1948-51 Fine Gael led government proclaimed the republic, they have officially been called Fine Gael, the United Ireland Party for twenty years now. No one party has a monopoly on patriotism.

gandalf

Thread reopened to allow original poster to expand and clarify his opinion.

monument

Shocker: anyone can wave a 'tricolour'!

madmorphy

The shinners started this down in kerry when martin ferris won,then contuined it with mary lou in the euro's.Absolute ****ing disgrace,who do they think they are :mad: :mad: .EVERYBODY in the republic owns the tricolour,you're not up the north now lads !.As far as i'm concerned the flag should hang outside every polling station and no one of any party should be allowed bring flags in,whats next a few rounds off into the roof !

MT

I agree intirely with the sentiments of madmorphy. The tricolour is the flag of all the Irish people and every party in this state. Attempts to hyjack it make a mockery of republican claims about reaching out to unionists by highlighting the reason for the orange stripe. I mean there's no point even considering unionists up north if parties for a united Ireland aren't deemed worthy enough to fly the flag.

But then we need to bare in mind the view SF apologists and their ilk take of the rest of us. We're a collection of traitors, free state bastárds, west brits, covert unionists, self-haters etc. So in their eyes none of us really deserves to wave the tricolour as our national flag.

Remember, we'll never equal the patriotism of the IRA. I mean their campaign for 'truth and justice' is more than anything we'll ever be able to do for the people of Ireland. Just think of the number of Irish people who've had their human dignity and right to justice protected by those glorious freedom fighters. Why, just ask Robert McCartney, Jean McConville, her ten children, Mark Robinson, Gareth O'Connor, the hostages held in the Northern Bank robbery and plenty others. These people will testify to the debt owed by Ireland to the Republican Movement.

Yes folks, hold onto your knee caps, the true patriots are in town.

Gael

Fair play to whoever in FG thought of it. Pulls the rug from under the Shinners feet in terms of symbolism. Next the other parties should start putting Irish on their posters/literature so they won't be able to claim a monopoly on that either.

jman0

Take it down from the Mast

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

Why not leave it to those who are willing,
To uphold it in war and in peace,
To the men who intend to defend it,
Until England's tyrannies cease.

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

You have murdered our brave Liam and Rory,
You've slaughtered young Richard and Joe,
Your hands with their blood are still gory,
Fulfilling the work of the foe.

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

Villain

I don't see why any party can't wave the flag, there any Irish party and more than entitled to embrace the tricolor.

BTW MT your talking bull when you say

But then we need to bare in mind the view SF apologists and their ilk take of the rest of us. We're a collection of traitors, free state bastárds, west brits, covert unionists, self-haters etc. So in their eyes none of us really deserves to wave the tricolour as our national flag.

That kind of post just go's to show the kind of single minded ignorant view you have. Talk about a gerneralisation :rolleyes:

ionapaul

I think he meant 'IRA apologists', to be fair.

Maybe while thinking of the letters Aye-Ror-Ay the letters Ess-Eff popped into his head and unconsiously out onto his keyboard. Strange, that.

Meh

irish1 wrote:

That kind of post just go's to show the kind of single minded ignorant view you have. Talk about a gerneralisation :rolleyes:

He seems to have a point, just look at jman0's post above you quoting a well-known song about "free state traitors bringing shame on the flag". The fact that there's a well-known song about it would suggest that it's a fairly widespread view, no?

jman0

jman0 wrote:

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

I presume thats a song...
From the early 20th century perhaps from the lingo?

The country will be awash with tri-colours tomorrow,this is Ireland.
It is our countries flag and is not an exclusive Republican movement emblem.
Anyone that suggests so is just plain silly and wrong

jman0 theres a creative writing board for poetry posting.
In here, we are discussing stuff not posting songs-do not post anything that is not a discussion comment again please.

solice

Was at the RDS for the count after the local and euros last year. I in no way support SF and i was so pissed off when i saw them wave the tricolour. I actually felt angry that they could do that.

The symbolism seems to have been lost on them as well. Three colours, two comunities living together in peace.

I think every person who endorses the idea and principle behind the tricolour should be allowed to wave it, fly it and be proud of it. The fact that the shinners think everyone except them alone are allowed to use it does not just show arrogance but it shows contempt for the entire population of Ireland.

In light of recent events in the north and in our own backyard down south, I feel totally vindicated in telling anyone who voted SF in the locals and euros to go FCUK themselves!

A Dub in Glasgo

solice wrote:

in telling anyone who voted SF in the locals and euros to go FCUK themselves!

Another one who resorts to insults!!

magpie

whats next a few rounds off into the roof !

lol

I was at the count in the RDS at the last general election and I must admit it was pretty galling seeing the collection of thugs and misfits that made up the SF support waving the tricolour around and roaring their heads off. They're a bunch of knackers, and that's it. Anyone considering voting for SF should go down to a polling station and check out the 'Party Officials'. Just make sure you don't look at their girlfriend funny, or its stabbin' time.

I agree with whoever suggested that the tricolour should be outside the polling station and banned at counts etc to stop the national flag being hijacked by a bunch of donkey jacket wearing bearded drunks waving their fists at everyone.

solice

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Another one who resorts to insults!!

At least i cant draw blood with insults.....

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

the collection of thugs and misfits that made up the SF support waving the tricolour around and roaring their heads off. They're a bunch of knackers, and that's it.

and yet another one!

solice

solice wrote:

In light of recent events in the north and in our own backyard down south, I feel totally vindicated in telling anyone who voted SF in the locals and euros to go FCUK themselves!

While I'm at it,No more of that here please.Rephrase it.
Your opinion is your opinion and there are loads of ways of getting it across without using the F word or the B word for that matter.

magpie

Not an insult, its a first-hand observation. A primary historical source if you will. Were you at the RDS count? If not then you're not in any position to refute my statement.

A Dub in Glasgo

In my opinion, if the rules allow it... anyone should be able to bring a tricolour into a count without others resorting to petty name calling and insults.

magpie

I think that's Fine Gaels point.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

Not an insult, its a first-hand observation. A primary historical source if you will. Were you at the RDS count? If not then you're not in any position to refute my statement.

so you met and talked to everyone that was there to ascertain if they were all drunk, thugs, misfits and knackers. Well done you. If not, you probably meant 'some' of the SF were drunk, thugs, misfits and knackers otherwise you are using an insult to generalise a support.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

I think that's Fine Gaels point.

Correct... it should work both ways though. SF supporters should not be subjected to the kind of insults seen here either.

magpie

probably meant 'some' of the SF were drunk, thugs, misfits and knackers otherwise you are using an insult to generalise a support.

True, the drunken, loud, intimidatory mob who were waving the flags about were obviously only the rank and file support. The 'footsoldiers' if you will.

The malignant, educated higher echelons such as O Snodaigh and Co were smiling smugly in their fancy suits.

Sinn Fein supporters... insults

OK, but in all honesty I would recommend anyone who votes for Sinn Fein to go down to a count to see who they are voting for / putting their lot in with. There's a big difference between spoiling your vote / voting for a grassroots movement / whatever other reason people have to vote for them and actually seeing what Sinn Fein activists are like in the flesh. And what they're like is Wing B, H-Block. Middle Class SF voters might be under illusions about that.

Slutmonkey57b

Reminds me of the attempts in recent years to reclaim the english flag from the football hooligans TBH. I don't see why there should be a problem with anyone flying the flag, but what they do while flying it should be questioned. Just like the football hooligans.

eirmail

i hate Fine Gael and would never vote for them , but they still have as much as right as anyone to fly the National Flag.

jman0

It's a rebel song Earthman.
Appropriate and on-topic too.

jman0

jman0 wrote:

It's a rebel song Earthman.
Appropriate and on-topic too.

Just as posting articles without comment is not on here,posting songs like that without comment is not either.
Do not do that again.

jman0

Earthman wrote:

Just as posting articles without comment is not on here,posting songs like that without comment is not either.
Do not do that again.

? It's a famous Rebel song, i believe most people are familiar with it, and other ones like it. It is not copywrited material.

solice

Earthman wrote:

While I'm at it,No more of that here please.Rephrase it.
Your opinion is your opinion and there are loads of ways of getting it across without using the F word or the B word for that matter.

ok so.....ill rephrase it!

In light of recent events in the north and here in our own backyard I feel totally vindicated in telling anyone that voted for Sinn Fein IRA, a political front for an illegal armed terrorist organization, that they voted for the blood of innocent men to be spilled on our streets (Robert Mcartney, Gerry Mcabe et al), that they voted for crime and corruption (northern bank heist and the cover up for Robert Mcartneys murder), that they voted for a group of people that do not believe in law and order (they do not support the PSNI, a police force supported by the British and Irish governments. They also feel that vigilantism is a means to end criminal activity, they said that they were willing to shoot the people who killed Robert Mcartney. The also proposed the early release of the killers of a member of an garda siochana, gerry mcabe, and insisted on that being a part of the agreement for peace). I feel vindicated in telling the people who voted for Sinn Fein IRA that they voted for the lowest common denominator.

Will that do or should i rephrase it again?

jman0

solice wrote:

ok so.....ill rephrase it!

In light of recent events in the north and here in our own backyard I feel totally vindicated in telling anyone that voted for Sinn Fein IRA, a political front for an illegal armed terrorist organization, that they voted for the blood of innocent men to be spilled on our streets (Robert Mcartney, Gerry Mcabe et al), that they voted for crime and corruption (northern bank heist and the cover up for Robert Mcartneys murder), that they voted for a group of people that do not believe in law and order (they do not support the PSNI, a police force supported by the British and Irish governments. They also feel that vigilantism is a means to end criminal activity, they said that they were willing to shoot the people who killed Robert Mcartney. The also proposed the early release of the killers of a member of an garda siochana, gerry mcabe, and insisted on that being a part of the agreement for peace). I feel vindicated in telling the people who voted for Sinn Fein IRA that they voted for the lowest common denominator.

Will that do or should i rephrase it again?

Exactly what does this have to do with Fine Gael and the Tricolour?
It's a wildly off topic rant.

jman0

jman0 wrote:

? It's a famous Rebel song, i believe most people are familiar with it, and other ones like it. It is not copywrited material.

thats not my point.
You posted a song with a message without stating your own opinion or whether you agreed with the song.
Thats not acceptable as its a roundabout way of posting a message without accepting responsiblity for the content of the message.
Its not debate or discussion either.
I hope that is perfectly clear to you, if you wish to discuss it further, you can pm me.

hill16

I vote Sinn Fein just to piss off the middle class,like some on this board.

Stabshauptmann

solice wrote:

In light of recent events in the north and here in our own backyard

SF doesnt see Ireland as a north and south but as a unit, that is what they and the IRA campaign for. If you start on a premise like that you wont be able to communicate effectivly with those whos opinions you wish to influence.
In fact you reinforce their mistrust of you, you only care now because things have happened "in our own backyard". Had you no empathy for fellow irishmen in the north when their homes and families were attacked and were the victums of state sponsored terror and discrimination. If you tried to understand SF supporters views perhaps you would be a more effective communicator.

I feel totally vindicated in telling anyone that voted for Sinn Fein IRA

Yes be sure to TELL them, dont talk to them, tell them why you are right and they are wrong :rolleyes:

....illegal armed terrorist organization, ...the blood of innocent men... crime ..... corruption ....they do not support the PSNI....vigilantism ...they were willing to shoot the people who killed Robert Mcartney....The also proposed the early release of the killers of a member of an garda siochana, gerry mcabe, and insisted on that being a part of the agreement for peace).

Having a private army seems to be a requirement before entering politics on this Island not a hinderance.
Innocents die in war, anybody who has ever supported any war has supported the death of innocents. It is still wrong. It is wrong. BUT the IRA killed fewer innocents proportionally than most other armies in conflicts in the 20th century.
Corruption is endemic in Ireland. It was instutionalised in FF - hence why the PDs split (supposedly).
There was no reasomn to support the RUC and untill ppl are satisfied that the PSNI is different why should they support it. Trust takes time to build, but untill it is trusted the PSNI cant function. Its a catch22.
Re: vigilantism, at least the IRA acknowledges the need for rules and order - thats a sign of hope for future support of the PSNI.
The release of the killers of garda McCabe was covered in the GFA which the majority of ppl supported. The IRA is not demanding their release, they've isseued statements to the contrary. Either way it takes two to negotiate and
Bertie was going to release them.

I feel vindicated in telling the people who voted for Sinn Fein IRA that they voted for the lowest common denominator.

So what? You look down on them as below you?

Boggle

...9/10 threads on this board descend into SF bashing parties instead of debating the topic at hand, and I reckon it turns alot of people off the politics furum but anyway I might aswell give some input...

Firstly, while you do not agree with a party (as I don't), it doesn't give you the right to go around insulting it's members and anyone who tries to defend them. There are dirty remarks flying all over the place that should normally get you at least a warning. If you dont want to debate it, stay away...

Secondly, there are actually one or 2 good reasons to vote for them outside of republicanism - such as the fact that they appear to be the only party that even remotely listens to it's constituents. For example, at the last election, they were the ONLY party which ran on the issue of car insurance. The rest just avoided it...

The also proposed the early release of the killers of a member of an garda siochana, gerry mcabe, and insisted on that being a part of the agreement for peace).

Why do you differentiate between the loss of an Irish life and the loss of a british/northern? To be honest, as far as I can see if you are going to release all who are convicted as being IRA men then that means all - not just the ones who did it outside your country.

a political front for an illegal armed terrorist organization,

And a group who actively campaigns for reunification - which is something that some people want. Are they not entitled to their views? I would expect(hope) that its only the hardline nuts who condone the murder of innocents.

I agree with whoever suggested that the tricolour should be outside the polling station and banned at counts etc to stop the national flag being hijacked by a bunch of donkey jacket wearing bearded drunks waving their fists at everyone.

Hijacked? Everyone is entitled to wave the flag. Just cos you dont like the guy waving it doesn't diminish his right to wave it!

magpie

they were the ONLY party which ran on the issue of car insurance

Can you tell us what they've done about it since? They profess to be all things to all knacke... people, but I wonder what actually gets done once the votes are in?

solice

Exactly what does this have to do with Fine Gael and the Tricolour?

It has to do with the topic in hand because in the begining of the thread it was said that it seemd bizarre that FG were waving the irish flag. It was also said that usually SF do. It is my opinion that anyone who doesnt agree with the principles of the tricolour should not be allowed use the tricolour for their own political gain. The tricolour stands for two communities living in peace. I am of the opinion that SF does not live by those principles.

Necromancer wrote:

SF doesnt see Ireland as a north and south but as a unit, that is what they and the IRA campaign for......

......The release of the killers of garda McCabe was covered in the GFA which the majority of ppl supported. The IRA is not demanding their release, they've isseued statements to the contrary. Either way it takes two to negotiate and
Bertie was going to release them.

You say that SFIRA supports the GFA, and so as a result supports the release of the killers of gerry mcabe. Thats fine.

BUT

The GFA had the support of the people of the south and the north. A referendum was held in the south and as a result the Republic of Ireland gave up its claim to the land of Northern Ireland until such a time where the majority of people who reside in Northern Ireland vote (the word vote would imply that it would all occur by peaceful means) to join the Republic.

Obviously if SF and the IRA supported the GFA they would have no purpose for weapons, bank robberies and murders etc etc
I can fully appreciate that SF and the IRA are looking for a 32 county republic and i welcome the day when it WILL come. But if they supported the GFA then why are the IRA still active?

It seems that they support the GFA when it benefits them, releasing killers early but they wont support it when it comes down to them having to make sacrifices for peace.

Re: vigilantism, at least the IRA acknowledges the need for rules and order

That has got to be a joke right? Why not let the people through the courts? Have the trial in public so that it can be seen to be transparent?

A Dub in Glasgo

solice wrote:

It has to do with the topic in hand because in the begining of the thread it was said that it seemd bizarre that FG were waving the irish flag. It was also said that usually SF do. It is my opinion that anyone who doesnt agree with the principles of the tricolour should not be allowed use the tricolour for their own political gain. The tricolour stands for two communities living in peace. I am of the opinion that SF does not live by those principles.

You are now putting a criteria do who should, in your opinion, have the right to use the national (ie Ireland) flag [not just the Republic of Ireland flag].

Would you agree that some other criteria proposed by someone else is just as valid? For example... Anybody who does not see wish to unite Ireland should not use the tricolour or anybody who does not recognise the people from NI as Irish should not use the tricolur.

ionapaul

A similar hijacking of the flag was seen recently in America, where the 'pro-war' movement claimed sole rights to waving the flag and loudly proclaiming their cause. This greatly pissed-off the 'anti-war' movement, who of course also wanted to wave the flag while loudly proclaimng their cause!

I remember a time when you wouldn't see an Irish flag in a private individual's hands for love or money - this was when the IRA were 'freedom fighting' across the water. Things really have loosened up a lot in the last ten years.

magpie

You are now putting a criteria do who should, in your opinion, have the right to use the national (ie Ireland) flag [not just the Republic of Ireland flag].

The only nation on this island I'm aware of is the Republic of Ireland, of which the tricolour is the national flag.

The Celtic FC flag might be more appropriate for the use of SF, as it leaves out the nasty Orange bit.

Gael

jman0 wrote:

Take it down from the Mast

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

Why not leave it to those who are willing,
To uphold it in war and in peace,
To the men who intend to defend it,
Until England's tyrannies cease.

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

You have murdered our brave Liam and Rory,
You've slaughtered young Richard and Joe,
Your hands with their blood are still gory,
Fulfilling the work of the foe.

Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to free staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.

Yeah that's the song that Ruairí Ó Brádaigh's Republican Sinn Féin/The Continuity IRA, sing about the SF/IRA traitors, because they sold out republicanism by recognising the Southern Republic and compromised with the enemy in the GFA. Yeah those Shinners bring a lot of shame to the flag, according to the other boys!

jman0

Gael wrote:

Yeah that's the song that Ruairí Ó Brádaigh's Republican Sinn Féin/The Continuity IRA, sing about the SF/IRA traitors, because they sold out republicanism by recognising the Southern Republic and compromised with the enemy in the GFA. Yeah those Shinners bring a lot of shame to the flag, according to the other boys!

The song is old, going back to Civil War times, and it is referring to the Blue Shirts of Fine Gael and Dev's Fianna Failures.
Edit: Liam and Rory, Richard and Joe are specific people executed. So maybe it was done by the Fianna Failures. But none the less you are way off on your interpretion because noone refers to SF or the Provos as "Free Staters", wouldn't that be ironic coming from Ruairí Ó Brádaigh's and Republican Sinn Féin!

bonkey

magpie wrote:

I must admit it was pretty galling seeing the collection of thugs and misfits that made up the SF support waving the tricolour around and roaring their heads off.

Would you be any happier if those same thugs and misfits were supporting a different (read: more acceptable to you) party instead?

I agree with whoever suggested that the tricolour should be outside the polling station and banned at counts etc to stop the national flag being hijacked by....

...anyone who has a right to display it proudly, but who is someone you don't approve of?

Not so far away from a mentality of "Of course you have freedom - the freedom to do what we approve of", I would say.

FG - at a guess - were waving the flag to try and cash in on the current wave of anti-SF sentiment which is, (not so) strangely enough, following closely on the heels of a period where it was looking like SF could be becoming a serious political force. Its pure opportunism (as are most election-time political activities) - hoping to garner favourism from those who've worked themselves (or been worked by others) into a froth to loathe everything that SF does.

jc

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

The only nation on this island I'm aware of is the Republic of Ireland, of which the tricolour is the national flag.

The Tricolour predates the Republic of Ireland by some distance. It was a flag for use on the whole island of Ireland by the Young Ireland movement, not just the bit that managed to get independence from the UK.

The Celtic FC flag might be more appropriate for the use of SF, as it leaves out the nasty Orange bit.

You will have to let me know what flag that is



There is nothing nasty about having the Orange in the Tricolour

A Dub in Glasgo

Gael wrote:

Yeah that's the song that Ruairí Ó Brádaigh's Republican Sinn Féin/The Continuity IRA, sing about the SF/IRA traitors, because they sold out republicanism by recognising the Southern Republic and compromised with the enemy in the GFA. Yeah those Shinners bring a lot of shame to the flag, according to the other boys!

The song originates when the Free State decided to use the tricolour as the official flag

Many of the songs written during the civil war were written by and for those who fought on the republican side. They invariably dealt with the atrocities of the Free State troops and the betrayal of the republican ideal of a thirty-two county Ireland. The song Take It Down From the Mast captures the sense of betrayal felt by those who took up arms against the new state. It is perhaps surprising that one seldom hears a song in praise of the two most outstanding individuals of that time, Michael Collins and Eamon de Valera. Nor does one hear a song in praise of the Irish Free State.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/songs/rs05.shtml

magpie

The Tricolour predates the Republic of Ireland by some distance. It was a flag for use on the whole island of Ireland by the Young Ireland movement, not just the bit that managed to get independence from the UK.

That's as maybe. Presently it is the national flag of The Republic of Ireland. The 6 Counties go under the Union Jack.

There is nothing nasty about having the Orange in the Tricolour

I agree, as it symolises unity between Catholic and Protestant / Nationalist and Unionist traditions. Do SF stand for that too?

Would you be any happier if those same thugs and misfits were supporting a different (read: more acceptable to you) party instead?

Every other party managed to comport themselves with some semblance of dignity and respect for the democratic process, even in victory. The SF supporters were drunk, lairy, obnoxious thugs.

FG - at a guess - were waving the flag to try and cash in on the current wave of anti-SF sentiment which is, (not so) strangely enough, following closely on the heels of a period where it was looking like SF could be becoming a serious political force.

Whoever the FG spin doctor who thought of carrying out the Northern Bank raid and the McCartney killing and pinning it on innocent, peace-loving Sinn Fein must be a genius. Poor Shinners being beaten down by the man when all they want to do is cut car insurance costs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/songs/rs05.shtml

The irony of linking to a BBC website for info on Chucky ballads.

dahamsta

Another addition to my "most ridiculous threads" collection. Why shouldn't Fine Gael fly the flag? Should Fianna Fail remove "The Republic Party" from their literature? Sinn Féin the outline of Ireland from their logo? Labour the colour red from their branding, since it's the colour of blood?! (Dan Dan DAH!)

Honest to god, we should replace fox hunting with Boards.ie dickhead hunting. Although it wouldn't be much of a hunt...

adam

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

The irony of linking to a BBC website for info on Chucky ballads.

I will link to any media that presents things in a fair light. In this example, the BBC have published an excellent piece about Irish Rebel songs up to and including the Civil War. RTE should take a leaf out of their book.

Start of the piece

I think this thread has ran its course-closed