were The Clash punk? what were they?

lee_baby_simms

this is a thought that i've never really worked out.

ok they started out as a punk group what exactly did they end up as?

any ideas?

Redleslie2

They were artists who created the music they wanted to make regardless of commercial or cred pressures. If people liked it, good, if they didn't, so what. That is punk.

I am MAN

Of course the Clash where punk thats just a dumb question.

melekalikimaka

second wave ska if the truth be told

Jim

I think hes asking the question in regard to the idealogy of Punk.
You might be able to define some of The Clash's music as second wave ska, but alot of it you can't. They spanned a ridiculos number of genres.

melekalikimaka

good point...but i think alot of punk stems from ska,it was the closest to punk before punk

lee_baby_simms

Jimeatsmenu wrote:

They spanned a ridiculos number of genres.

yeah exactly.
i think they seemed to always retain a punk attitude but the only really punk music album they made was their first one.
i like the way they took gambles and tried loads of styles especially the sandinsta monster that they made. it really has its moments as well as the odd clanger.

i'll go with rock'n'roll.

Ro: maaan!

Give 'Em Enough Rope isn't too far off punk.

Googe

They were an amazing rock and roll band with punk ideals imo.

Johnny Jukebox

No, they were not 'punk' in todays accepted sense of the word because they pushed the envelope early on and then moved off quickly while all the copycats figured out how to be as 'punk' as the Clash.

And no, they were not a ska band either, although they wrote and played some great ska songs.

Lets just say that for a couple of years they were the greatest rock'n'roll band in the world and live, on their night, were unbeatable. There is a generation of 40-somethings out there who will carry this band in their hearts until they die.

i_dont_do_names

lee_baby_simms wrote:

this is a thought that i've never really worked out.

ok they started out as a punk group what exactly did they end up as?

any ideas?

who really cares, they were the best ****in band ever and thats all that matters


but anyway of course they are, punk is all about freedom and being non-commercial

i_dont_do_names

melekalikimaka wrote:

good point...but i think alot of punk stems from ska,it was the closest to punk before punk

punk stems from a mixture of pub-rock and reggae, but without 1st wave ska(like prince buster, the ethiopians etc.) there would be no reggae

i_dont_do_names

melekalikimaka wrote:

second wave ska if the truth be told

how?

i can only think of two clash ska songs, rudie cant fail and pressure drop(which was a cover anyway)

i really dont see how you could call them a second-wave ska/two-tone or whatever band.

and second wave ska/two-tone was groups like the selecter, the specials, bad manners, the bodysnatchers, the beat etc. mixing ska reggae and punk

lee_baby_simms

i_dont_do_names wrote:

i can only think of two clash ska songs, rudie cant fail and pressure drop(which was a cover anyway)

wrong em boyo

fish-head

That's a cover too. And how could you possibly forget (White Man) In Hammersmith Palais), arguably their best song!

Course the clash were punk. They did what they wanted to do. I think they recorded the first white rap tracks in The Magnificent Seven and Lightning Strikes.

Sandinista! is the punkest album on earth. Next to WHY?.

bildo

I maintain the Clash were a reggae band.
Most of their albums are very bass heavy and the beat emphasis is on the 3rd beat which is a reggae trait. Punk is strictly on the 2s and 4s. Just listen to the drums.
All their later albums are littered with guitar upstrokes inna reggae man style and they covered a hell of a lot more reggae songs then punk songs.
Their roots are punk but I think punk is more of an attitude then a style of music. Punk rock is a branch of rock as I see it.

God I love the clash.

dregin

Noone gives a ****.

The clash didn't give a ****.

Punk.

anti-venom

i_dont_do_names wrote: »

who really cares, they were the best ****in band ever and thats all that matters


but anyway of course they are, punk is all about freedom and being non-commercial

Have you read Pat Gilbert's Passion is a Fashion: The Real Story of the Clash? According to Gilbert, and many others besides, The Clash were primarily concerned with commercial success, cultivating a false image of themselves and generally getting on with being rock stars. Mick Jones's little temper tantrums and love of the rock star image and antics were legendary. Joe Strummer, while probably being genuinely concerned with social justice, was nothing more than a reconstituted old hippie piggybacking on the punk explosion. Preaching about injustice and oppression from the ivory tower.

Contrast The Clash with Crass and you'll get the true measure of how punk they were.

Brunteaphile

Who the **** cares?!

I like the Clash, they played good music. Who gives a **** if they were rock, ska, reggae.
Is it really goin to change your shallow minded opinions?

AnimalRights

bildo wrote: »

I maintain the Clash were a reggae band.
Most of their albums are very bass heavy and the beat emphasis is on the 3rd beat which is a reggae trait. Punk is strictly on the 2s and 4s. Just listen to the drums.
All their later albums are littered with guitar upstrokes inna reggae man style and they covered a hell of a lot more reggae songs then punk songs.
Their roots are punk but I think punk is more of an attitude then a style of music. Punk rock is a branch of rock as I see it.

God I love the clash.

Bildo it was more Dub then Reggae..
The Clash started of as Punk rock of course.....I was there!
They invented such great Punk clothes too!!
Then as Jim pointed out they progressed to many things.

AnimalRights

anti-venom wrote: »

Contrast The Clash with Crass and you'll get the true measure of how punk they were.

I'll go a step further.....
Contrast Crass with Special Duties and you'll get the true measure of how Punk they were.

Put simply Crass were an anarcho Punk band who were just one part of the Punk movement wether they like it or not.
I was a big Crass fan back in the day but these days I see most of it as hippy preaching ****, gimmie pure Punk rock plain 3 riff guitar chords and less of the hippy politics, Conflict did political Punk far better anyway.

AnimalRights

Here anti venom, here's your precious anti commercial Crass, well Stevie Ignorant anyway and his 'backing' band from a few years back in London.
T-shirts were going at 17 sterling :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JANER64#p/search/5/_2J41GWf-wM
Excuse wonky camera at start, I was pissed.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JANER64#p/search/4/AFKLN-Mp01c
and one more, not Eve Libertine btw, IMO it was their best song of the night!

bitzzyfitz

i agree with what anti-venom and animal rights say. i saw the clash in trinity college and that was punk as we knew it. punk died when the pistols split.

bitzy

Junco Partner

they started out as punk with the first and most of the second but they moved on from the narrow mindedness of punk to play many genres reggae and ska mostly with some rockabilly dub funk early rap rock and roll jazz and even a gospel song they did all this but kept the polictical message in all their songs

dregin

Confining punk to one genre of music is the definition of narrow-mindedness.

maccored

... plus many of the musicians of the era who where in what would be referred to as punk bands (up til around 1978 anyway) laugh at the term 'punk'

smurke

Redleslie2 wrote: »

"It will always remain the undying, historic achievement of Adolf Hitler and his followers that they dared to take the first trail blazing and decisive steps towards such brilliant race-hygienic achievement in and for the German people. He and his followers were concerned with putting into practice the theories and advances of Nordic race conceptions...the fight against parasitic alien races such as Jews and Gypsies...and preventing the breeding of those with hereditary diseases and those of inferior stock.” - Prof Ernst Rudin

"They [The Gypsies] represent a culture that is endemically parasitic." - The Corinthian

Is this a joke?

dregin

wtf are you on about?

smurke

dregin wrote: »

wtf are you on about?

I'm asking that other person a question, what's your problem?

dregin

My problem is with the fact that that quote you're using doesn't appear in this thread so has nothing to do with it.

AnimalRights

bitzzyfitz wrote: »

i agree with what anti-venom and animal rights say. i saw the clash in trinity college and that was punk as we knew it. punk died when the pistols split.

bitzy

Punk is most certainly not dead, I photograph/Video about 50 gigs a year.
It's mostly underground, DIY.
Of course it's not as big as it's hey day of the late 70s.

Tell me Punk is dead after looking at The World's biggest Punk festival held in the Winter gardens in Blackpool.
http://pix.ie/punkrock/album/350678

bitzzyfitz

AnimalRights wrote: »

Punk is most certainly not dead, I photograph/Video about 50 gigs a year.
It's mostly underground, DIY.
Of course it's not as big as it's hey day of the late 70s.

Tell me Punk is dead after looking at The World's biggest Punk festival held in the Winter gardens in Blackpool.
http://pix.ie/punkrock/album/350678

Punk (as a movement) was all about being original/diy/3-chords/havin a go/gettin rid of ''so called hippy bands''/lengthy guitar solos''/all those cliches. anything after that was just a copy. its influences are worldwide as we know it. punk arrived in dublin later than london/i was in the dandelion market every saturday and i gigged there. punk was a huge changing point in my life and i am still playing ''punk music'' in a band over 30 years later. my point was that the originality was gone when the ''leather jacket/mohawk brigade'' emerged and everybody looked like everybody else.

cheers

bitzy

smurke

dregin wrote: »

My problem is with the fact that that quote you're using doesn't appear in this thread so has nothing to do with it.

It appears in the thread as a signature. I'm asking one person a question. Why can't you just ignore it?

Ro: maaan!

He's right you know. I missed that myself.

Although the post is from 2005. So you may not get a reply.

smurke

and I missed that!, thought it was a new thread, didn't pay attention to the date, ah well

bullpost

AnimalRights wrote: »

Tell me Punk is dead after looking at The World's biggest Punk festival held in the Winter gardens in Blackpool.
http://pix.ie/punkrock/album/350678

Wow - It might not be dead but judging by those photos its cetainly put on a few pounds and gained a few laughter lines since I went to the gigs way back when.

bassey

bitzzyfitz wrote: »

Punk (as a movement) was all about being original/diy/3-chords/havin a go/gettin rid of ''so called hippy bands''/lengthy guitar solos''/all those cliches. anything after that was just a copy. its influences are worldwide as we know it. punk arrived in dublin later than london/i was in the dandelion market every saturday and i gigged there. punk was a huge changing point in my life and i am still playing ''punk music'' in a band over 30 years later. my point was that the originality was gone when the ''leather jacket/mohawk brigade'' emerged and everybody looked like everybody else.

cheers

bitzy

Punk is youth and you're an old **** so **** off

Ro: maaan!

Easy on the personal insults. I'm gonna let that one go as it is probably just misdirected anger at the system.

It's also about the least punk thing you could have said.

AnimalRights

smurke wrote: »

and I missed that!, thought it was a new thread, didn't pay attention to the date, ah well

SAME HERE LOL

bullpost

On a related note - Theres a tribute album to the Clash's Sandinista triple album. Its got artists like Wreckless Eric and The Coal Porters and camper Van Beethoven.

Its free until tonight here:

http://blog.guterman.com/2010/03/09/the-sandinista-project-once-again-free-for-a-limited-time/

Is it punk? Musically probably not but in spirit definitely.

smurke

bullpost wrote: »

On a related note - Theres a tribute album to the Clash's Sandinista triple album. Its got artists like Wreckless Eric and The Coal Porters and camper Van Beethoven.

Its free until tonight here:

http://blog.guterman.com/2010/03/09/the-sandinista-project-once-again-free-for-a-limited-time/

Is it punk? Musically probably not but in spirit definitely.

Cheers for the heads up

AnimalRights

D/l this and looking at the artists I feared the worst too, I was right, Ivan meets GI Joe by one Jason Ringenberg is some poxy C+W version...aaarrggghhhh
It's terrible.

Guess this is kind of an answer to how The Clash became, I mean once people like this who cover the tracks er cover 'em it's ex Punk time.

BaelNaMblath

Everyone says the clash is punk, but they're definitely a pop band.

jed cooper

Its a hard sell to say the Clash were a Ska or Reggae band.. or even a pop band. They were a punk band (of course) but I bet if you asked them directly back in the day they would simple decline to answer. Being genre-less is the mark of great musicians with much creativity to give. The rules applied in this conversation do not apply.

In the UK back in the late 70's the Punk scene and the Reggae/Ska scene were very closely tied. Reggae was the preferred after-party music of the punk scene so its easy to see where the bands were getting their ideas.

The above list of tracks is incomplete.

Strongly Reggae/Ska influenced Clash songs:
-Revolution Rock
-Bank Robber (Robber Dub)
-Wrong 'Em Boyo
-The Guns of Brixton
-Rudie Can't Fail
-(White Man) in Hammersmith Palais
-Pressure Drop (a Toots and the Maytals cover)
-Armagideon Time (Justice Tonight/ Kick It Over) (a Willie Williams cover)
-Police & Thieves (a Junior Murvin cover)
Others...?

There are so many ska/reggae influenced songs from the Clash the task of listing them is difficult but in the above list the influence is obvious.

1979's London Calling has at least 4 Reggae/Ska influenced songs on it alone. Lets see what other Punk/Reggae things were going on that same year in the UK?
1979:
-The Slits release the album "Cut"
-The Specials release their first album "The Specials"
-Stiff Little fingers covers Bob Marley's "Johnny Was"
-The Police release "Reggatta de Blanc" (White Reggae) including the track "Bring on the Night"
-Madness release their first record.

I think The Clash were musical chameleons, moving from pub rock to punk to ska to pop. There's a continuity there in the development of the sound that continues through to Big Audio Dynamite. Never saw them as a punk band really, and that isn't a dis - they just weren't constrained by the punk recipe book.

Randy Shafter

I'd say they started off as punk but as they progressed they didn't limit themselves to just playing punk rock. They took on board a lot of other genres and incorporated those styles into their music. IMO they were punk at the start yet they tried different genres as time went on and still put a punk spin on them so to speak.

arsenallegend

their first album was certainly Punk from the production to the playing
but they did become a different beast and from Give 'em enough on became the greatest band in the world.