The IRA keep a bashing and Sinn Féin keep a shrinking

Rock Climber

Yes thats right,the impact of the IRA's inextricable links with Sinn Féin are telling on the party.

A poll in todays Irish times shows that 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, whilst 64% now believe the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery.
The same poll shows a further huge drop in Gerry Adams approval rating.

Also in this the week that they hold their Árd Fhéis, the inquiry into the Brutal murder of Robert McCartney by "IRA volunteers" is drawing a blank because in the words of the police ombudsman up there(from the indo)

The level of intimidation of witnesses was described by Ms O'Loan as "horrendous". She said: "Seventy people were in the pub and yet not one witness statement has been received."

These are the same "volunteers" that are often féted as heroes at SF Árdfhéiseanna.

It's little wonder then that I contend in the company of the vast majority of the ordinary decent law abiding criminal despising public of this country that the IRA are the real ones doing the SF bashing and they are doing a pretty good job of shrinking Sinn Féin.

mike65

I'd say 56% was a pretty damn low result. If I were SF I'd been slightly hopeful.

Mike.

Cork

Bruton was asked by John McLaughlin on the highly-rated "One on One "program, carried on NBC and PBS: "Is Gerry (Adams) in the top rungs of the leadership of the IRA?" He immediately replied without any hesitancy or equivocation, "Yes."

John Bruton former Taoiseach went on to state :

"We are at risk in Ireland of seeing a Sinn Fein party which is closely linked with a criminal organization,"

Link

SF have some decisions to make regardsing its future.

It cannot winge about all and sundry without taking a long hard look at itself and its associations.

Fwiw,I'm thinking this whole business over the last couple of months must be very frustrating for anyone in Sinn Féin not directly connected with NI politics.
ie people who are out there visiting new constituents more often than the other parties do.
The current high profile troubles for republicans will probably do little damage to the loyality of socialist leaning voters who are being well looked after by their new representatives, but it's likely to put the kie-bosh under any growth outside of that sector.

Reading that poll, 67% of respondents believe that it is time that SF remove itself from the IRA right now,its effectively showing how distastefull people view the IRA link at this stage.
I heard a journalist on the Last word on Today FM yesterday I think, he was from the observer iirc and he estimated that IRA ties with legitimate businesses ran into milions of Euro and thats before the Northern bank heist.
This is a respectable investigative journalist.

Couple that with the regular lectures against IRA criminality in the likes of the Sunday World and the Indo and take that 67% figure above and it's not hard to see what sort of millstone SF has to carry on its neck these days.
The Indo and Sunday world circulation are the highest in the land and rising not falling.Clearly more and more people are sharing their view on the matter.

Sinn Féin have a lot of work to do in my view if they want to turn this situation around and a start would be turning in the murderers of Robert McCartney, his sisters were on the TV again last night saying that the SF leadership were made aware long ago who they are.
The fact that they publically sacked (without prejudice) 7 of their own members over this recently wont be seen as good enough by the family and the longer the perpetrators are free as a result of witness intimidation the worse this is going to look.

simu

Earthman wrote:

Fwiw,I'm thinking this whole business over the last couple of months must be very frustrating for anyone in Sinn Féin not directly connected with NI politics.
ie people who are out there visiting new constituents more often than the other parties do.

I don't get people like this, though. Did they really think it was possible to disconnect SF from NI politics? Seems very naive.

If they've already made a name for themselves, could they not consider breaking off and starting a new party or running as independents?

Villain

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

Conisdering the ammount of negative press the party has received I think Sinn Fein's support is holding very well.

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Roisin Dubh

I really don't think what FF/FG/Labour voters think of SF is going to have much affect on its vote in the South. The 30% apporval rating includes a lot more than SF voters, cince their vote in the last poll is 9% - higher than their General Election result.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

problem with that sort of analysis though is, in opinion poll terms 56% is a whopping figure to be thinking one way compared to the figure thinking the other.
67% thinking they should split links with the IRA, when thats not on the cards is a dangerous figure for them, as it shows that while the view is out there that there are republican criminals out there, then the public are drawing conclusions on Sinn Féin based on this

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

They can only bounce back if they can deal with the perception of criminality that persists whilst they are inextricably linked to the IRA.
Theres only one way to do that and I think there'd be considerable opposition probably from influential people if there was an internal clampdown with any member involved in racketeering etc-not saying that there is but the perception is out there.

By the way do you really think support for hard left socialism could ever rocket in a greedy society? I'm inclined to think that the majority of people are more influenced these days by give away budgets and SSIA type wind falls, neither of which are a characteristic of hard left socialism.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Only if they grasp the nettles and strangle the causes of the current woes they have,I suspect that wont be easy or happen too soon as it might rattle a few too many internal opposing toes...

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Only if they sever all links with their buddies in the criminal IRA.

Rock Climber

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I really don't think what FF/FG/Labour voters think of SF is going to have much affect on its vote in the South. The 30% apporval rating includes a lot more than SF voters, cince their vote in the last poll is 9% - higher than their General Election result.

Yeah but who do or where do you think SF have to take voters to grow?
Opinion polls are usually a representative sample of all voters.
Thus you'd like to see opinion polls going positively, not negatively.

Ok they get some voters out who wouldnt otherwise vote, but theres only a finite stream of them...

simu wrote:

I don't get people like this, though. Did they really think it was possible to disconnect SF from NI politics? Seems very naive.

This is the crux of it.I think it's a lot of blinkerdom.
I mean the IRA are very quick to kneecap some teenager for anti social behaviour , yet their own butcher an innocent guy to death and they cover it up, hum and haw over justice,intimidate witnesses...

You'd have to be very naive to disconnect from that , seeing as it's on the TV every night.

Sigh...

At least people are learning.

mike65

Did anyone watch Gerry Adams keynote speech? I must say I'd sooner burn my eyes and ears out than spend an hour listening which meant I just caught a few glimpses before switching back to er, Song For Europe I saw the McCartney sisters and they looked a bit uncomfortable beside Adams I must say. Not sure why they agreed.

Mike.

AmenToThat

irish1 wrote:

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

If course they will bounce back.
They have the two best politicians on the island in Adams and McGuinness and eventually this madness will, like everything else in life blow over and SF will in time emerge stronger and more focused.

BuffyBot

If course they will bounce back.
They have the two best politicians on the island in Adams and McGuinness and eventually this madness will, like everything else in life blow over and SF will in time emerge stronger and more focused.

Well you know, I hope it takes some time. I hope people remember exactly how long it took them to come around to what happened in the McCartney case, and exactly how long it took them to take action - and that action only came due to unprecedented pressure and a lot of awkward questions.

I wouldn't call Adams and McGuinness the "best" politicians - they're great with the old weasel words alright, and are masters of saying a lot of words with little content. If you judge them by that criteria, they certainly have a lead on most!

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

yeah, that poll was kind to you.
Todays however puts the figure at 69% against Sinn Fein being in government in the Republic.
From RTE this morning

06 March 2005 08:40

A new opinion poll indicates that a large majority of voters in the Republic are opposed to a coalition including Sinn Féin.

A number of motions up for debate today at the party's Ard Fheis urge the party not to enter any such government.

Only 20% of those questoned for the Sunday Business Post survey said they would find the idea acceptable, with 69% saying they were opposed to it.

72% of people said the Government should insist on a signal from the IRA, such as an act of decommissioning, before resuming talks with Sinn Féin.

14% said this was not necessary, and 14% had no opinion.

Just to note that all this is damaging the profile of Republicanism in the U.S similarally as it is here,I found this article in the LA times.
Some selected highlights...

Adams offered sympathy but no new commitments to the McCartneys, who have alleged that the IRA is intimidating witnesses to the attack.

The family left the conference saying they were not satisfied. They said that none of 72 potential witnesses had given police statements identifying the attackers, whose names are said to be known in the McCartneys' Belfast neighborhood of Short Strand, an IRA power base.

"These men murdered my brother. Everyone knows who they are," Catherine McCartney said.

Their outspoken criticism of the IRA is almost unheard of in their neighborhood, and it is indicative of the deep problems facing Sinn Fein. Not only is the party under unprecedented pressure from a traditional local heartland over the stabbing, it is facing fire from political opponents and governments over the killing and a $50-million bank heist also blamed on the IRA.

They also note that for the first time in years,no member of the U.S congress either Democrat or Republican attended the Ard fheis.

Villain

I think the US support will go quite for a while but once a deal is brokered and the IRA decommission Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow. Sinn Fein has a very strong support base in the US.

Sleepy

How do you reason that one irish1? Once a deal is brokered Sinn Fein are nothing more than an extreme left socialist party. Not exactly something that's popular in the good ole' Ewe Ess of Aiii now is it?

Villain

They will also be the only republican show in town.

Cork

Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow.

What do you mean?

Are the Shinners actually going to stand in a US election?

But is probably fianacial support you mean?

What is the average cost that an Amercian pays to sit down and listen to Adams?

As Tánaiste Mary Harney succinctly put it, the denial by senior Sinn Féin figures of any involvement in or knowledge of the IRA is “just a joke”.

[iRISH eXAMINER

I really can't see the US administation allowing the Shinners to fund raise untill SF breaks all links with their buddies in the criminal IRA.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

They will also be the only republican show in town.

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?
There are lots of Republicans out there who believe that the PIRA sullied the name of this Republic by bombing, shooting and killing without the peoples permission and yet again, we have Adams at his Ard fheis speaking of these people as if it was something to be proud of...
While thats what he talks about with pride and in the same speech accuses the 3 big parties of delaying unity,I believe the IRA will continue to bash sinn Féin and shrink it .
Honestly the Gall of saying the 3 big parties delayed unity while at the same time venerating those that murdered and bombed all round the north for decades -yeah that really gave the unionists tthe appetite for a united Ireland... :rolleyes:

The mind boggles as to how that sort of veneration could ever be acceptable to the Irish people.
Clearly it isnt or it would be the well financed Sinn Féin that would have most of the vote in this country and not FF,FG,and Labour as well as a myriad of non violence praising independents.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

No but I think you'll find I have been discussing these issues here a lot lately, so forgive me if I'm not going to go back over everything just because you haven't been around. You might want to go back over the hundreds of posts I have posted while you have been away.

Rock Climber wrote:

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?
There are lots of Republicans out there who believe that the PIRA sullied the name of this Republic by bombing, shooting and killing without the peoples permission and yet again, we have Adams at his Ard fheis speaking of these people as if it was something to be proud of...
While thats what he talks about with pride and in the same speech accuses the 3 big parties of delaying unity,I believe the IRA will continue to bash sinn Féin and shrink it .
Honestly the Gall of saying the 3 big parties delayed unity while at the same time venerating those that murdered and bombed all round the north for decades -yeah that really gave the unionists tthe appetite for a united Ireland... :rolleyes:

The mind boggles as to how that sort of veneration could ever be acceptable to the Irish people.
Clearly it isnt or it would be the well financed Sinn Féin that would have most of the vote in this country and not FF,FG,and Labour as well as a myriad of non violence praising independents.

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning. Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

Cork

Rock Climber wrote:

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?

God only knows what senior SF are currently planning.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

You might want to go back over the hundreds of posts I have posted while you have been away.

Is that an insult on the poster or the post?
By the wayI'm as entitled to speak my mind here as you are.

Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

And what use was that when the IRA were planning the biggest ever robbery in these islands at the time? That is the view of the majority of the people on this island and of Dáil Éireann.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

Define Republicanism?
Bombing , shooting, killing and mahem? There was no need for that in the 1980's or the 1990's while we were all in the E.U
The SF party that you support venorate the perpetrators of that campaign while the victims families are still alive.
I can give out about that and say it's wrong without any conclusion being drawn that I support the terror from the other side, I most certainly don't.
But to support a party that venorates that murder and mahem and increasingly as perceived by the people of Ireland criminality as well is simply not good full stop.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning.

It was SF/IRA who refused to sign a no criminality pledage. The pledge was to include propction aganist property and owns person.

SF/IRA both refused to agree to this?

blaming democratically elected governments and unionists is an old Shinner ploy. Sinn fein is always daz white.

SF really needs to get to grips with itself. It is a party that has campaigned for the early realease of killers of Garda Jerry McCabe.

It maintains links with an illegal organisation. Some of its members havetrouble calling cold blooded murder of Jean McConville and Jerry McCabe a crime.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland

What has SF done?

FF, FG, Labour or the SDLP have never been a month piece for the IRA.

Sand

I think the US support will go quite for a while but once a deal is brokered and the IRA decommission Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow. Sinn Fein has a very strong support base in the US.

A support based on ignorance and a romantic, dewy eyed view of the dashing flying columns of SF/IRA skipping from misty glen to misty glen, ambushing the pillaging,raping, murdering British soldiers- possibly played by the same guys as from Braveheart.

That might be put down to Americans not knowing **** about anything outside their own country, but lets face it - its Irish people who are voting for that myth.

When or if the McCartneys visit the U.S. (a terrifying prospect for Adams and his merry band of scum) the American supporters of SF/IRA might get a hell of a wakeup in these post 9/11 days.

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning. Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

So you havent heard that the reason that SF/IRA walked away was because of the clause in the agreement that would have demanded an end to criminality?

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

I like this - when you accuse SF/IRA voters of voting for the killers of Jerry McCabe, of Robert McCartney, for the people who robbed the NIB, for the people operating a massive money laundering scheme, for the people who are directing a massive intimidation campaign in Nationalist areas, and for the people beating and mutilating children in the North its denied that theres any connection between their vote and approval for those actions. "Oh no" they say "Im voting for a local candidate whose got the job done, the north plays no role in my decision". And yet, theyre the only all Ireland party, a party who sprawls across either side of the border.

Either way, Nationalists in the north would be far better served by FF/FG/Labour than they are by SF/IRA. They would have rule of law, they would have a party that is interested in serving their interests rather than prosecuting an archaic idealogical campaign, they would have a party that doesnt murder them and terrorise them if they speak out against the party. Sure, they might be corrupt incompetent tossers but better that than murderous corrupt incompetent tossers.

By the way, the fallout from the McCartney murder is snowballing. And it seems like Gerry and Martin have instructed the night shift to cease beatings whilst theyre attempting to pacify the families. Wonderous how the beatings stop and start as suits SF/IRAs electoral strategies, isnt it?

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Is that an insult on the poster or the post?
By the wayI'm as entitled to speak my mind here as you are.

Its not an insult at all and of course you are entitled to speak your mind, I was simply stating I have discussed all these issues while you were away.

Rock Climber wrote:

And what use was that when the IRA were planning the biggest ever robbery in these islands at the time? That is the view of the majority of the people on this island and of Dáil Éireann.

I have seen no proof that shows the IRA as an organisation was planning this robbery then.

Rock Climber wrote:

Define Republicanism?
Bombing , shooting, killing and mahem? There was no need for that in the 1980's or the 1990's while we were all in the E.U
The SF party that you support venorate the perpetrators of that campaign while the victims families are still alive.
I can give out about that and say it's wrong without any conclusion being drawn that I support the terror from the other side, I most certainly don't.
But to support a party that venorates that murder and mahem and increasingly as perceived by the people of Ireland criminality as well is simply not good full stop.

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

I have seen no proof that shows the IRA as an organisation was planning this robbery then.

I know the nile is a river in egypt.

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

So you support a party that venorates people who walk the streets now that bombed and shot right through the 80's and 90's and whose victims families are still alive?
Speaks for itself really.
The people of ireland are waking up and smelling the coffee.
The sheer hypocrisy of saying that a party that supported the Bombing and shooting of fellow Irish people and English people(kids in warrington for instance) brought a united Ireland foward whilst the contitutional parties dragged it back is breath taking.

Villain

Rock Climber I think it's about time you moved on Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful means now. It's as easy to go back 100 years as 20 years, I mean I think you might remember a time when Pat Rabbittes party was been funded by the proceeds of bank robberies.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Rock Climber I think it's about time you moved on Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful means now. It's as easy to go back 100 years as 20 years, I mean I think you might remember a time when Pat Rabbittes party was been funded by the proceeds of bank robberies.

Oh does Pat Rabbitte fete terrorists at the Labour Ard fheis every year?
news to me...
Was he negotiating for a group while they were planning a robbery?
Did he have to expell members on suspicion of being an accessory to murder recently?

This is all current, you may be willing to accept it, but the majority of the Irish people clearly dont.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

But the murder of a garda is not a crime?

The mask has been pulled off SF/IRA. We know exactly what they represent. What has the NI raid or Killing of Robert McCarney to do with a United Ireland?

But SF failed to sign up to a no criminality pledge last December that would protect the person and the property.

SF /IRA have done nothing but devide the peoples of this island.

SF/IRA are a mess. They are niether fish nor foul.

What mandate has SF to maintain links with the IRA?

Pat Rabbitte is not a member of the IRA army council. Niether are any other members of the Labour party.

Pat Rabitte has no problem calling murder a crime unlike some shinners.

AmenToThat

Cork wrote:

But the murder of a garda is not a crime?

Not in the context of the events of 1996.
Horrible, yes.
Criminal?, no!

Cork wrote:

The mask has been pulled off SF/IRA. We know exactly what they represent. What has the NI raid or Killing of Robert McCarney to do with a United Ireland?

The killing of Robert Mc was not an action sanctioned by the IRA and as such they are not accountable for the actions of rogue elements in the same way you cannot condem all gardai for the criminal actions of a few.

Cork wrote:

But SF failed to sign up to a no criminality pledge last December that would protect the person and the property.

You think that was the only issue at the time?
Take the blinkers off for a while and take a look at the big picture

Cork wrote:

SF /IRA have done nothing but devide the peoples of this island.

Think you will find that it was Britain and Micheal Collins that did that.

Cork wrote:

SF/IRA are a mess. They are niether fish nor foul.

Again this is not true, despite the events of the last weeks SF support has remainded steady as the people of Ireland realize that SF are the best hope for a lasting peace on the island

Cork wrote:

What mandate has SF to maintain links with the IRA?

The support of the majority of the nationalist population in the north, the only mandate they need.

Cork wrote:

Pat Rabitte has no problem calling murder a crime unlike some shinners.

Why would we possible want to call IRA actions crimes when they quiet clearly are not?
Simply doesnt make sense.

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

Not in the context of the events of 1996.
Horrible, yes.
Criminal?, no!

The murder of a Garda is a crime

Hydroquinone

I have a question that I hope a Sinn Fein person could answer.

I watched Gerry Adams give his leaders address at the Ard Fheis on the telly on Saturday and he said he would not rest until the people who killed robert McCartney admitted it and were brought to justice in a court of law.
(they might not have been his exact words, but it was something along those lines)

Can any SF-er tell me if he meant
1) A court of law in NI
2) A court of law here in RoI
3) A court sometime in the future when there is only one country on this island.

If he meant in NI, then he must be a hypocrite as he doesn't accept British rule on this island, or presumably their justice. Does he?
If he mean in RoI - can one country try a person for a crime committed in a foreign jurisdiction?
If he meant in the future, when all of this island is one country, then I suppose he might have a point. But if I was a McCartney sister, it'd mean diddly squat to me. Double speak and weasel words.

So Sinn Feiners, where did he mean?

Villain

He meant the Crown Court in NI, that it is the only place these men can be tried for murder of Robert McCartney.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning.

Interesting how the notion of photographing a move that even someone as anti-Sinn Fein as myself would applaud is seen as humiliating when murdering Gardai, butchering innocent men etc. etc. etc. isn't.

How in the name of your god do you rationalise this? I think it's clear to all that Sinn Fein / IRA were negotiating in bad faith and had no intentions of decomissioning.

Villain

Sleepy if you watched the speech Paisley gave you would see why it was called humiliation.

IMO two clergy men witnessing the act was a fair proposal.

Squaletto

Hi all anti Republican posters, it is high time you all woke up to the fact that sooner or later your FF and FG and PD politicians will have to beg SF for their support in bringing about peace in Ireland. Stop the crap and beg your corrupt local FF, FG and PD TD to act now and get the Peace Process back on track.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

mycroft

The killing of Robert Mc was not an action sanctioned by the IRA and as such they are not accountable for the actions of rogue elements in the same way you cannot condem all gardai for the criminal actions of a few.

Of course, and the Campaign to have them released is what?

Hydroquinone

irish1 wrote:

He meant the Crown Court in NI, that it is the only place these men can be tried for murder of Robert McCartney.

And how does that sit with the Sinn Fein party faithful?
Surely they are pissed off with him for suggesting it?

In real terms it surely means that SF members have to go and talk to the PSNI and give statements then be tried in a British court and face British justice.
How can he suggest that they co-operate with a system they all believe is corrupt and moreover, is part of an illegal occupying power?
Is that treason in the SF mindset?

Villain

Yep if you caught a news bullentin today they reported some members were not happy, but IMO Adams is doing the right thing all be it a little slowly.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

Sleepy if you watched the speech Paisley gave you would see why it was called humiliation.

IMO two clergy men witnessing the act was a fair proposal.

There would have been no humiliation in taking the moral high ground. Kennedy hardly humiliated himself by stepping down unilateraly during the Cuban Missile crisis did he?

Sleepy

Squaletto wrote:

Hi all anti Republican posters, it is high time you all woke up to the fact that sooner or later your FF and FG and PD politicians will have to beg SF for their support in bringing about peace in Ireland. Stop the crap and beg your corrupt local FF, FG and PD TD to act now and get the Peace Process back on track.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

Congratulations. You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

Squaletto

Sleepy wrote:

Congratulations. You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

I might be the first person to be ignored by you but going through all your postings there is evidence that you also choose to ignore the facts regarding republican efforts at bringing about a peaceful resolution to the problem in northern Ireland.

Ignoring the problem doesn't mean it will go away....you know!

ciao for now amici!

swiss

You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

You're not exactly ignoring him with that comment...

In any case, I do find it heartening that people are finally starting to recognise the deep and inexorable links that exist between Sinn Féin and the IRA. Many people see these links as so intractable that they see these entities as one and the same organisation, and use the notation SF/IRA to convey this. I think this is a reasonable assessment. In such a light, it is only logical to assume that a vote for Sinn Féin is a tacit vote of support for the IRA and their criminal activities.

The IRA have had some bad press of late, and deservedly so. I believe that they were responsible for the Northern bank robbery, and I furthur believe them to be mired in criminality that extends not only to robbery but to beatings, intimidation, money laundering, protection racketeering and drug dealing (either by dealing drugs themselves or by making deals with those that do).

Those who support SF/IRA will often deny the above, claim it to be some kind of Government conspiracy against them, or when this is proved not to be the case, claim that "rogue" elements of republicanism are sullying the name of the IRA. I reject both of these claims. I reject the first one on the very simple premise that since peace in the north is the stated objective of both Governments it would be obtuse to implicate one party to that potential peace in activities that jepordise that peace. I reject the second one because these acts of criminality appear to be far too widespread to be the acts of a few "dissenters" or "rogues". Even if a relatively small percentage of those criminal acts attributed to the IRA by security forces were carried out by the IRA, it indicates a very deep and pervasive criminality within that organisation. Furthurmore, the tacit aura of protection extended to IRA criminal elements, exemplified by the Robert McCartney murder, demonstrate at the very least an acceptance of these activities by mainstream IRA members.

I think that part of the problem is that SF/IRA have gotten so used to people looking the other way for the sake of the peace process that they are now caught on the hop when not only the governments have demonstrated their exasperation in light of the bank robberies, but their very own hinterland in the Short Strand have protested against their links to criminality. To everyone else, this has unmasked the underlying core of SF that they have to date been quite effective in covering up. This core is of course their dealings with a very nasty, very criminal element of an unknown (as yet) number and composition within the IRA.

This has precipitated into a crisis for SF/IRA. Clearly, SF don't want to give up on the political capital they have made with their involvement in the peace process. On the other hand, since they have made their bed with criminals and thugs within the IRA they may now have to find that they have to lie in it, and that it is difficult to sever those associations. In addition, it is unclear whether there is real motivation to give up those associations altogether, probably because these men are seen as republicans who fought for the "cause", and more tellingly, because they still provide excellent financiers for that party.

Therefore SF/IRA face a choice, one which they have quite adeptly managed to avoid since the inception of the peace process. This choice is whether to go down the sole path of peaceful democratic means or not. This time, however, there is no more budge and fudge around the issue. Both Governments, as well as a significant percentage of people north and south of the border, share this opinion.

Decision time, what's it to be?

Squaletto

swiss wrote:

You're not exactly ignoring him with that comment...

In any case, I do find it heartening that people are finally starting to recognise the deep and inexorable links that exist between Sinn Féin and the IRA. Many people see these links as so intractable that they see these entities as one and the same organisation, and use the notation SF/IRA to convey this. I think this is a reasonable assessment. In such a light, it is only logical to assume that a vote for Sinn Féin is a tacit vote of support for the IRA and their criminal activities.

The IRA have had some bad press of late, and deservedly so. I believe that they were responsible for the Northern bank robbery, and I furthur believe them to be mired in criminality that extends not only to robbery but to beatings, intimidation, money laundering, protection racketeering and drug dealing (either by dealing drugs themselves or by making deals with those that do).

Those who support SF/IRA will often deny the above, claim it to be some kind of Government conspiracy against them, or when this is proved not to be the case, claim that "rogue" elements of republicanism are sullying the name of the IRA. I reject both of these claims. I reject the first one on the very simple premise that since peace in the north is the stated objective of both Governments it would be obtuse to implicate one party to that potential peace in activities that jepordise that peace. I reject the second one because these acts of criminality appear to be far too widespread to be the acts of a few "dissenters" or "rogues". Even if a relatively small percentage of those criminal acts attributed to the IRA by security forces were carried out by the IRA, it indicates a very deep and pervasive criminality within that organisation. Furthurmore, the tacit aura of protection extended to IRA criminal elements, exemplified by the Robert McCartney murder, demonstrate at the very least an acceptance of these activities by mainstream IRA members.

I think that part of the problem is that SF/IRA have gotten so used to people looking the other way for the sake of the peace process that they are now caught on the hop when not only the governments have demonstrated their exasperation in light of the bank robberies, but their very own hinterland in the Short Strand have protested against their links to criminality. To everyone else, this has unmasked the underlying core of SF that they have to date been quite effective in covering up. This core is of course their dealings with a very nasty, very criminal element of an unknown (as yet) number and composition within the IRA.

This has precipitated into a crisis for SF/IRA. Clearly, SF don't want to give up on the political capital they have made with their involvement in the peace process. On the other hand, since they have made their bed with criminals and thugs within the IRA they may now have to find that they have to lie in it, and that it is difficult to sever those associations. In addition, it is unclear whether there is real motivation to give up those associations altogether, probably because these men are seen as republicans who fought for the "cause", and more tellingly, because they still provide excellent financiers for that party.

Therefore SF/IRA face a choice, one which they have quite adeptly managed to avoid since the inception of the peace process. This choice is whether to go down the sole path of peaceful democratic means or not. This time, however, there is no more budge and fudge around the issue. Both Governments, as well as a significant percentage of people north and south of the border, share this opinion.

Decision time, what's it to be?

Decision time indeed. Swiss you make many points and are entitled to that but it seems a little unfair to say that a vote for SF is a vote for the IRA. For the past few weeks we have heard a lot of accusations from all the major democratic parties in the south but as of yet that's all they are accusations. Isn't it time for some evidence to be put forward so the people of Ireland who it may be said have a place for justice and the rule of law can judge for themselves.
I mean, where is the evidence that the IRA did that bank job? Where is the evidence that SF are involved in money laundering. Surely sufficient time has passed to find a link to the money found in Daz boxes and in gardens in Cork to let the public in on the story. I remember hearing that it was only a matter of days before the connection would be proven. Something smells strange and one is reminded of the time when a certain SF candidate in Kerry was arrested days before an important election only to have all charges dropped months later when the hooha had died down. Is it any wonder SF supporters claim a conspiracy!
The actions of PD leader Mc Dowdall is also adding to the feeling that in some quarters letting Sf in to the table to talk might be actually damaging to the mainstream parties political ambitions. Here is a man who has always been against the idea of inclusion for republicans and actively campaigned against John Hume going into talks with the IRA.
It would seem a better idea if all involved really stood back and apply themselves to bringing about a peaceful solution to the problem in the north. Throwing mud at each other is good for headlines but the real problem needs to be addressed. Less of the humiliation talk and trying to criminalise a group of people and more common sense is needed so we can all look forward to a united Ireland where the green lies next to the orange and prosperity for all.

Squaletto

Squaletto wrote:

I mean, where is the evidence that the IRA did that bank job?

You'll have to keep waiting I'm afraid, cases are with the DPP arent they?
Theres never any public display of the case untill it comes to court
It would be a conspiracy if people found with laundered money werent prosecuted and high profile cases didnt ensue, but not the kind of conspiracy you are suggesting.

Less of the humiliation talk and trying to criminalise a group of people and more common sense is needed so we can all look forward to a united Ireland where the green lies next to the orange and prosperity for all.

The problem I see with that is how do you get a million unionists to accept your view? I mean you know what they think of the IRA and of Sinn Féin.
They didnt need the current controversies to hold a dim view of SF.
It isnt as easy or poetic as you make it sound unfortunately.
If it was, the two by-elections would go to Sinn Féin next week and they wont not by a long shot will they?

Sleepy

If Adams et al had any genuine commitment to peace in the north, they'd disband both the party and it's army.

Neither have made any contribution to the peace process, neither have anything to offer other than their closure.

ChRoMe

Yeah sleepy a peace process with only one side represented is a definite plan for success!

If you like it or not the republican movement has to be represented for any peace process to take place.

Sleepy

When you have two extremist parties (i.e. Paisley's boys and Adam's boys) why not remove both and just allow the more reasonable parties sort out the whole thing? Like it or not, to achieve peace both sides need to make concessions and essentially move towards the middle, neither have proven to be prepared to do this so why not just kick em out of the process and allow the rest of the country get on with life?

BuffyBot

When you have two extremist parties (i.e. Paisley's boys and Adam's boys) why not remove both and just allow the more reasonable parties sort out the whole thing?

Well...what could possibly happen....

You exclude both parties. They get annoyed about being excluded from the process.
You alienate their supporters, who rightly or wrongly support them and have given them votes. The parties involved then get to look like the victims. They gain support because of this. They are left out in the cold, and the people the represent feel they aren't being listened to. The peace process moves forward, without input from these two parties. A deal is brokered, but it isn't acceptable to the excluded parties - their concerns haven't been addressed. The process continues. The alienated parties get annoyed. Their more "active" participants begin to feel violence is the only way to get what they want. Violent incidents begin to occur..shootings, bombings and the like.

You know what they say about those who don't learn from history?

Agent Orange

Yawn. Only two types of people vote for IRA Sinn Féin: idiots and extreme nationalists. The Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

IRA Sinn Féin's support will drop even more when they lose Adams as a leader: he does a very good impression of a reasonable politician and has charisma. McGuinness looks like a clown without make-up (to quote Alan Partridge).

Only 28% think IRA Sinn Féin are suitable for government. This does not imply they would vote for them. It is an utterly pathetic figure. The bank robbery and the murder cover-up have exposed IRA Sinn Féin as the murderous criminals anyone with half a brain always knew them to be.