Self Build - ESB + Government Contribution

yop

Lads

2 questions please for people in the know.

1 - ESB - how much is a connection? How long did it take for them connect you? Can you get a temp connection? How do you go about it?

2. Gov Contribution Scheme - In Mayo we have to pay 300 notes to the contribution scheme, who do you pay it to??

cheers

zep

Yop,
Hows it going?
Got my quote from ESB and it was 1300 Yoooos or so. That being there is a source for connection close to me. Should not need poles or the the likes.
Depending on pole requirements etc the price will vary.
A temp supply can be put on site if the right provions are made for it but they also charge a higher rate per unit on temp supplies.

In kildare you have to pay 11,500 ish for a house less that 2000 sq foot
and 18,000 for one over 2000 sq feet. A rip if ever there was one.

Cheers,
Steve.

kadman

Cheaper to buy a diesel generator , for a temp supply.

kadman

RedPaddy

Yop,

2. You pay the council fee in Mayo when you receive an invoice from the Co. Council!! To recieve an invoice you need to pay the fire brigade fee of 30, it's a badly copied form as part of your planning permission.

RedPaddy

Lex Luthor

zep wrote:

In kildare you have to pay 11,500 ish for a house less that 2000 sq foot
and 18,000 for one over 2000 sq feet. A rip if ever there was one.

Cheers,
Steve.

Steve, guy in work told me the same thing...didn't believe it myself...was thinking about a self build myself but something like that would put you off

kadman

Lex,

Why would it put you off. Thought the whole idea of a self build was to save on money on the rip off builders , or do the build and become a rip off seller, either way you're a winner gonig self build.

kadman

Lex Luthor

kadman wrote:

Lex,

Why would it put you off. Thought the whole idea of a self build was to save on money on the rip off builders , or do the build and become a rip off seller, either way you're a winner gonig self build.

kadman

need to find a site first....was thinking about Kildare cos thats where I'm based at the moment and don't really want to go out any further.

kadman

So stay below 2000 sq.ft.,the extra 7000 will pay for about 1/2 of a timberframe dormer bungalow kit , if your going self erect. Allow about 3-4 weeks for kit erection, and roof. Organise al other labour at your own convenience. This way you get to keep the major profits a contractor would have made. Self build is money saved if you organise it properly. If you really want to save money make the timberframe kit your self.

Organisation is the key.

He..oo dares wins..Rodders

kadman

Macy

ESB - You can get a temp supply to a permenant location, i.e. to the house connection. You can't get a temp supply to a temp location these days. Can't remember the cost for our ESB - somewhere around €1200. There's a few local lads here, so we weren't too long. There's a form you get from the ESB - if you phone the customer helpline which is on the bill you should get one okay (it's from their Athlone Office).

Is it the development levies you're asking about? Ours was €2000 for an unserviced site, with a €2000 deposit for tree planting (which they make as hard as possible to get back, and most people write it off, but we'll be trying to get back since our site is exposed and we'll be planting (and have already planted) a load)

yop

Thanks for that lads.

I am looking at 1800 due to the extra KW needed to run the heat pump for the GEO.
Temp supply they reckon will near take as long to get a the 12 week waiting to get supply in!, gas men!

I rang the COCO today and they told me to send in a cheque for the figure to the planning office.

"the extra 7000 will pay for about 1/2 of a timberframe dormer bungalow kit , if your going self erect."
Will be a small house if u get a TF kit for 14k!!

kadman

"the extra 7000 will pay for about 1/2 of a timberframe dormer bungalow kit , if your going self erect."
Will be a small house if u get a TF kit for 14k!!"[/QUOTE]


About 1/2 .
The price of your timberframe kit depends on a number of things .
When you get a quote for a kit, you are paying for more than timber panels.
Your paying two different prices for full kit or self erect, if you erect it your probably saving about 2-3k on a quoted price of 20k kit. If you supply your own panel plans , your probably saving another 2-3k. Choosing a smaller manufacturer also reduces the cost. So on a 20k kit quote , you could save 4-6k.
20k-5k=15k/2= 7.5k

Of course the other question is what's a small house?
kadman

yop

Fair enough, what you mean your own panel plans???

We are doing a TF, 2100sq ft.
For them to erect it costs 6200, to get other lads who do this full time is costing me 4500.
I am doing a lot of the house myself but I would not put up the kit myself, I can imagine it is not rocket science but at the end of the day this is a serious part of your house.

For 20k you might get a 1200 sq foot house, I have spent the last 10 months looking at every TF company to quote me, I could not get a cheaper quote anywhere that where I got it.

I presume when you say the TF kit you are not including erecting the kit, the plasterboard, insulation, felt, doors, stairs, architrave, skirting??

kadman

yop wrote:

Fair enough, what you mean your own panel plans???

We are doing a TF, 2100sq ft.
For them to erect it costs 6200, to get other lads who do this full time is costing me 4500.
I am doing a lot of the house myself but I would not put up the kit myself, I can imagine it is not rocket science but at the end of the day this is a serious part of your house.

For 20k you might get a 1200 sq foot house, I have spent the last 10 months looking at every TF company to quote me, I could not get a cheaper quote anywhere that where I got it.

I presume when you say the TF kit you are not including erecting the kit, the plasterboard, insulation, felt, doors, stairs, architrave, skirting??

Your own panel plans, are the individual panel construction plans, showing the dimensional layout of your studs ect,

Well you've already saved 1700E then. Erect the ground floor yourself, probably save another 1300E. Gas nailer and level.

Lift on floor panels, 6 panels, crane, gas nailer, not rocket science.

Roof trusses or attic trusses.

Its very hard to say where you could save money on your build, but in general, some areas to consider may be hanging and locking your own doors, supplying your own plasterboard, skirtings ect.

Every timberframe kit tends to include, panels, floor panels, roof trusses, erection, plasterboard, stairs, doors and frames, skirtings. panel design drawings. If you change any of these elements you would have an impact either positive or negative in your overall quote.
For instance if you arrange you own panel drawings, buy 2 or3 bales of timber and osb board, gas nailer, chop saw, 2 men could make a timber frame kit in about 3-4 days.

As I said before its impossible to generalise , but I would strongly recomend " Homebonds House Building Manual " for any body building a timberframe house. If only to use the check list in it to assure your self that you have a professional build. The volume of timberframe being erected now that may not conform to good building practice may some times surprise you. Timberframe built well is excellent, built poor is not always evident to the unitiated.

kadman

kadman

yop

While I agree of course you can save money by doing the plasterboard, doors etc which I am doing, you will not be given a mortgage for a timber frame you do yourself.
It is a requirement from both the bank and your engineer to have a certificiate for the timber frame, there is no way they would hand over a money or your engineer would pass it otherwise.


"For instance if you arrange you own panel drawings, buy 2 or3 bales of timber and osb board, gas nailer, chop saw, 2 men could make a timber frame kit in about 3-4 days."

I definately do not agree with you here, it is not a dolls house you are building, you have to know what you are at, I have mates who work for timber frame companies, neither would contemplate making their own timber frame kit.

Have you actually made your own TF, that is a good book but definately would not tell you enough to go out and make your own TF. There are regs to adhere to and stresses on the timber frame to be taken into consideration, there is a big difference to putting in a stud partition and making a timber frame house,

Maybe I am incorrect on these points but others who have knowledge about TF may have input into this

kadman

yop wrote:

While I agree of course you can save money by doing the plasterboard, doors etc which I am doing, you will not be given a mortgage for a timber frame you do yourself.
It is a requirement from both the bank and your engineer to have a certificiate for the timber frame, there is no way they would hand over a money or your engineer would pass it otherwise.


"For instance if you arrange you own panel drawings, buy 2 or3 bales of timber and osb board, gas nailer, chop saw, 2 men could make a timber frame kit in about 3-4 days."

I definately do not agree with you here, it is not a dolls house you are building, you have to know what you are at, I have mates who work for timber frame companies, neither would contemplate making their own timber frame kit.

Have you actually made your own TF, that is a good book but definately would not tell you enough to go out and make your own TF. There are regs to adhere to and stresses on the timber frame to be taken into consideration, there is a big difference to putting in a stud partition and making a timber frame house,

Maybe I am incorrect on these points but others who have knowledge about TF may have input into this

Obviously you would need your own architect and engineer, to produce your structural report and approval for your intended construction methods. You may not be aware of it but the structural recommendations by an engineer , are the first thing that is produced before , cad design, or timberframe production.

I know what I am at. I was a technical construction manager for a timberframe company, in charge of all cad design , production, erection and finishing. Why would your mates not contemplate making a timberframe kit. If they're not competent to make the kit, how are they competent enough to erect one. Its a collection of panels , properly constructed and joined together to make a house. Look at the individual panels , as opposed to the whole thing, its made up of simple components. How do the american carpenters manage to stick build bigger houses than here ,from scratch if its so complicated. Of course, its easier to use a gas nailer connecting panels, than it is to figure out dimensions in constructing panels. Your timberframe is made up of a collection of stud partitions.

Two competent men could assemble a full timberframe kit of wall panels, internal and external and floor panels, for an average size bungalow, not including the roof, in less than a week , if supplied by a person cutting timber to length.

If timberframe is so complicated , why are you paying an 18 year old labourer to make your timberframe kit. There are very few qualified personnel on a timberframe assembly line, thats what keeps the labour cost down and the profits up. If an inexperienced labourer can make a kit, why can't a qualified chippy on site do the same. If your mates are chippies, why cant they make a timberframe house from start to finish. If they can't do that , then they are not chippies, and if they're not chippies, why are inexperienced men erecting timberframe houses.

Why should the regs and stresses of timberframe concern you, thats what you are paying your architect and engineer for.

As for the finances , I made my comments in relation to self build , and the advantages of it, I have enough trouble organising my own finances, with out trying to organise someone elses.

Oh by the way, I am a qualified
Carpenter/ joiner 25 years experience,
Autocad City and Guilds Level 2
Autocad City and Guilds Level 3
Rcs Timberframe
Strucad Advanced Certificate.
Strucad Basic Certificate
Member Of The Institute of Carpenters England.

yop

Well in fairness with the exp or quals u have within the TF industry you cannot really say anyone can do a TF? Of course since you have been involved in the industry you would see it as been easy but unless you have guys who have experience in the TF industry I cannot see that any chippy could just go out and buy the timber and make a TF house? Maybe easier for a bungalow but I think once you go above that it maybe difficult.

BTW - the lads I am on about are not the guys who are doing the TF erecting of the kit, they work as designers for TF companies.

kadman

Well of course designer s who work for timberframe companies, are not going to tell you it can be done, they would be doing their company out of work. Secondly designers are not necessarily the best people to construct a house, their ablility lies in their cad skills , not construction hands on approach. Carpenters and joiners with a hands on approach make the best designers, they already have the fabrication skill set, and the ability to visualise elements in 3d. Designers tend to be college graduates with good cad skills, but no hands on experience.

Why do you think a carpenter could not make a timberframe house. If he has served a recognised apprentice ship, he should have the skill set to achieve this. Again you are looking at the overall picture. Break it down into its finer elements. Is their any element of timberframe construction, you believe a carpenter could not handle. Thats his trade, partitions, floors, roofs, 1st fix and second fix elements. Apart from the design , thats all a timberframe house is. And the chippie is not expected to design any way.

BTW why do your timberframe guys shy away from making a tf kit. Did they give a specific reason. I'd be interested in their answer. If you need expert knowledge, why are unqualified tradesmen employed assembling them?

kadman

kadman

Well lets put the humble chippies abilities to the test.

Building details,
5M. square rectangle, in plan.
2.4 floor to wallplate height.
45 degree roof pitch.
1M x 2.1M ope for door frame in one gable, centrally located.
1Mx1M window ope, head height 2.1M , centrally located in other gable and two sides.
Roof material, 150x44
External studs 150x44
Lintols 225 x 44 with packer.
Externally sheeted with 9mm osb.
Ceiling joists 44x90

All studs at 400mm centres, noggins at 1200 staggered , lintols supported by single stud each end.

These would be the basic skills repeated throughout a tf build.

If their is any chippie out there that could not manage this task easily,
please sign in. If any other chippie thinks this is a walk in the park , please sign in also.

My own contention from my experience is that this type of first fix, is as easy as it gets. As I said before , this is what a carpenter does.

kadman.

BTW this probably is phase 2 level for a 2nd year apprentice.

yop

Again you know more about this than I do so I cannot really go into the finer issues.
I was talking to one of the lads who work for the TF, and he said that the reason he did not do it was time restrictions, he did not have the time to do the set out and supervise it, he said that there are 2 engineers in Sligo who were willing to sign off theTF kit for him but since he works for a TF company then it was as easy, though slightly more expensive, for him to get it direct off him.

I can see what you mean though about the breakdown, it should be standard enough to make, time and the right setup would definately give you the ability to do so.

kadman

It all depends on how far you want to take the self build option. There may be more reasons why your designer may not involve himself in outside contracts. His contract may not allow him to engage in outside practices which conflict with his normal job, quite common.

A designer is not necessarily the best person to supervise a tf erection, unless he has hands on experience, a tf carpenter/joiner would be a better choice.

If you wanted to get a structural report from an engineer, to commence a tf build yourself, which he would stand over, there are engineers who do this , may take a bit of investigation, granted.

As you say if you had sufficient time to organise a ideal setup, anything is possible. Good luck with your build, and a small piece of advise for you. When your tf kit is up, engage a seperate tf consultant/tf experienced designer to survey your build for you. Its worth a days pay , and he would pick up on any potential problems for you. Independant confirmation would assure you of a good build.
kadman .

yop

Ya cheers, I will be keeping a good eye on it and I have a good mate who has a number of years exp with a number of leading TF companies who I am sure will run his eye over it.

Slán

YAPP

Once your engineer will sign off on the timber frame that is built on site,
theres no problem with the banks/institutions etcc,.

But this system of build is not recognised in this country as a standard practice.

Timber Frame Companies that are regulated by NSAI will comply with all relevant standards reqd and so are a safer bet. TF kits built on site do not have a 'Quality Control' system in place and as such are only as good as the carpenter, find a good carpenter doing this work and he'll probably charge more than the TF company would any way; their scarce!

Yapp

kadman

YAPP wrote:

Once your engineer will sign off on the timber frame that is built on site,
theres no problem with the banks/institutions etcc,.

But this system of build is not recognised in this country as a standard practice.

Timber Frame Companies that are regulated by NSAI will comply with all relevant standards reqd and so are a safer bet. TF kits built on site do not have a 'Quality Control' system in place and as such are only as good as the carpenter, find a good carpenter doing this work and he'll probably charge more than the TF company would any way; their scarce!

Yapp

True its not a standard practice, nor is the scandinavian type of timber build a standard practice, but they have been doing it for centuries.

How are tf companies here regulated, self regulated you mean. I've surveyed so called timberframe houses here that would not comply with current standards, built by companies.

Block houses built on site do not have a quality control system in place either, but they are still building them. Your quality control on site is equivalent to the expertise of your foreman or contracts manager/ supervisor.

At least a good carpenter on site should know his job. Do you know many carpenters working on a timberframe production line. No, because they are semi skilled staff. You ask a line assembler why some of the studwork is sitting above the top or bottom plate, hes just nailed, and he will stare at you. You try slabbing a partition where the studs are not in line,.

The quality of the tf build is relevent to the skills of the people building it, not whether its factory built or site built.

A carpenter charging more than a tf company....now there's a thought.

kadman

YAPP

ok cadman,

I take your point, there are semi-skilled labours on tf prod lines, I've seen it before, but current tf companies are checked by NSAI inspectors and are very vigilant.

And yes I do know a squad of carpenters working on a prod line in a tf factory. Its a warmer environment for these guys, or so i'm told.
I bought a tf kit from this co and visited the factory and i actually know the lads on the floor.
So yes, probably rare but they do produce a good kit.

YAPP

kadman

YAPP wrote:

ok cadman,

I take your point, there are semi-skilled labours on tf prod lines, I've seen it before, but current tf companies are checked by NSAI inspectors and are very vigilant.

And yes I do know a squad of carpenters working on a prod line in a tf factory. Its a warmer environment for these guys, or so i'm told.
I bought a tf kit from this co and visited the factory and i actually know the lads on the floor.
So yes, probably rare but they do produce a good kit.

YAPP

Ahhh...the poor old chippy got in out the cold then....bless their little cotten socks.....bunch of softies..

As for current tf companies checked by NSAI, I've never met any , maybe . Does any body go out and check the timberframe erected, I,ve never seen it. Who assures the client he has a good build, the TF company that built it ,thats who.

Unless you know about good building practices, you need to get your own timberframe professional to check it for you. One house I surveyed had 57 faults, 11 of which were major structural faults, all relevent to the erection / manufacturing process.

Definitely there are excellent tf producers out there , but I still recommend having your own professional on board.

kadman

Macy

kadman wrote:

As for current tf companies checked by NSAI, I've never met any , maybe . Does any body go out and check the timberframe erected, I,ve never seen it.

Actually, I happened to be on a day off (and just wandering around getting in the way) when the NSAI were checking our house - could be homebond related though as we're with a builder.

yob wrote:

ESB - how much is a connection? How do you go about it?

We're getting our final supply, so had the documents out. Cost was €1300, but ours didn't require an additional transformer - just pole's and wire. No idea whether that effects price...

kadman

Macy wrote:

Actually, I happened to be on a day off (and just wandering around getting in the way) when the NSAI were checking our house - could be homebond related though as we're with a builder.

...

.

Are you sure it was the NSAI , I would have thought Homebond related ,.
NSAI visit would be a first for me.


When I said I had never met them, I was talking from a point of view of a construction technical role involved in timberframe on an ongoing basis. Both in the cad design area and production, and on site as well, over a lengthy period. I had never met any NSAI personnel, or people involved with Homebond.

Of course homebond is only an agreed standard for good building practices involved with timberframe, and indeed block built. Just because its their , it doesn't mean the standards are met.

Unless you have experienced personnel building you house, contractors or otherwise , it would be hard to conform to the standards required. For instance, if you have a stairs in your house , that is less than 400mm from a doorway, it may be perfect, but does it conform to standards, who knows , only the professionals.

Glad to see you had a visit though...hope he knows his job. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kadman

YAPP

Well KadMAN,

Would you be able to reccommend any tf companies in ireland at the moment?

I bought a kit from a good company, but would like to hear your recommendations on the matter....

rooferPete

Hi,

From my experience with the NSAI I have to say I wouldn't trust them one inch, I have about four different types of back up for the replies I got when I questioned the performance of the holder of an agrement certificate.

A lot of the staff are not interested in what happens after the NSAI have got their money, that is feedback I have got from companies who paid a lot of money for tests and certification.

A lot of the work thy do is valued by the Architects because they are covered by specifying certified products or systems.

I have had two experiences where I went to them for for clarification, on each occasion they failed big time, if the NSAI see this post and don't like it call me or sue me if you want to, I have the proof

kadman

YAPP wrote:

Well KadMAN,

Would you be able to reccommend any tf companies in ireland at the moment?

I bought a kit from a good company, but would like to hear your recommendations on the matter....

Hi Yapp,

What research did you do regarding the company you dealt with. How did you evaluate their ability to deliver a good build to you. Do you have the necessary construction experience in timberframe to evaluate it your self, if so what area. you know where mine comes from.

My reccomendations for considering a timberframe build is the following.

1 Engage your own timberframe professional , that works on your behalf. as
the tf kit personnel work for the companies benefit, not yours.

2 Look at tf kit unfinished built by the company, preferably a dormer bungalow. This a more complex build than an ordinary bungalow, and you consultant should be able to assess a professional build.

3 Look at a finished build, your consultant can assess the company's ability to finish well.

In oder for me to give my reccomendations on your build, I would have to survey it first. I'm not on these forums to tout for work , moreso to give some advice from a background of 20+ years in timberframe/ joinery construction.

As to your comment in another thread, :mad:

Advise for the DIYer,
Kadman is right (for once) in quering the new 'Attic'/room floor joisting,.
If using the existing ceiling joist as a Floor Joist now, ensure
adequate span sizes; available in...

Well at least you are of the opinion that I have been right once, (which is more than I feel about your comments )

So if you need my reccomendations on your build, I would have to survey an unfinished building ( before all the faults are hidden ), and if you can afford me , I'm willing to prove I know what I'm talking about :cool:

kadman

YAPP

Kadman,

I researched the product and company pretty well before commiting.

I saw previously erected kits in the area and spoke with clients. A Happy client is usually a good sign.

This co brag all the certs and wot not, but they do use good gangs erecting.
Well finished kits with nailing at correct centres, flush fitting finished studs and neat plumb cuts on truss ends, all impressive...

A mate of mine used them and his engineer was delighted with the co performance both on site and in running the build.

As far as expierence goes, i;ve seen a few kits go up now and i'm learning something new every day...

kadman

YAPP wrote:

Kadman,

I researched the product and company pretty well before commiting.

I saw previously erected kits in the area and spoke with clients. A Happy client is usually a good sign.

This co brag all the certs and wot not, but they do use good gangs erecting.
Well finished kits with nailing at correct centres, flush fitting finished studs and neat plumb cuts on truss ends, all impressive...

A mate of mine used them and his engineer was delighted with the co performance both on site and in running the build.

As far as expierence goes, i;ve seen a few kits go up now and i'm learning something new every day...

Yapp,

Do I take all that to mean, you won't be needing my survey skills on your house then

Of course correct nailing centres, flush studs, plumb cuts, are the easy bits.
What about correct gs or ss grade timbers, loadbearing support to beams, cripple stud contact with lintols. These are not always evident to the novice, but are crucial elements to a good build. Professional scrutiny will pick these up, ordinary diy'ers will not.

Unless you have the professional background knowledge in construction, I don't think a diy'er will be able to fully define a good build from a bad one.

You never said what your background in construction is ..
The check list in homebond's manual is a good introduction to the novice tf purchaser, and gives them a good guideline on the important things to check.

But nothing can replace career experience , :cool:
glad to see you did your homework on your build, sensible approach.

kadman

Victor

ESB contributions can vary widely. If they need to bring in a new mains to an area, it is likely that you will pay for all of it. If they have plenty of cpacity, you'll only pay for what it costs them to connect you up.

YAPP

Ok Sean,
thanks for that

Yapp