Would the Annabels trio have been treated differently...

Keyzer

Not sure if this has been done before but here goes...

Would the Annabels trio have been treated differently if they were from another part of Dublin i.e Finglas, Ballymun, Tallaght etc.

How these scumbags got away with murder is beyond me...

Iago

money buys freedom, it has always been the case and will always be the case, the only thing that surprises me is the amount of people that were surprised by the outcome

Trojan

I believe that this is a highly complex case and may not be simply reduced to "they're wealthy/from the southside, therefore got away with murder".

koneko

Trojan is right, but I think an expensive legal team certainly helps, particularly if you're going to get off on technicalities.

Kingsize

would they have gone straight to gards if thats the case,
i agree money buys freedom but they were entiled to a fair trial just like everybody.
But the case would not have gotten as much front page publicity if it had been a group of guys from Finglas, Ballymun, Tallaght ?
I think the court case mentioned that other people were involved but didnt come forward, the only people arrested in this case were the four guys who at least had the decency to admit their involvment.
plus most of the newspapers play down the fact that the victim started the fight.
Nobody deserves to die like that but if you pick a fight with someone & theres a gang of mates involved expect the worst.
There was a long running(longest running in state history at the time) murder case back in 1993 (ish) involving 4 guys from tallaght who killed a doorman out in Dunlaoire.
i knew the family of one of the guys involved it never got more than a secondary headline,no photos no shock horror stories, no pictures of the victim in his communion suit ,during the case & it was on the front page once when the guys were aquitted.
In other words the working class can kick each other to death every week & nobody cares, this case wouldve passed into history like all the others.

dearg_doom

it's not just that their families could afford a brilian legal team, there were also huge social pressures on the case.

they came from the same part of the city as most of the judges/lawyers/upper middle classes in Dublin, there was also a lot of hushed-up witnesses and almost perjury.

of the 4 lads prosecuted, the only one convicted was the one who did the right thing, whose parents marched him up to the Garda station to admit he was there and involved. even though he was not involved at the time of the actual killing.

IMHO if these were 4 'scumbags' who had killed this lad, there would not have been 2 aquittals and 2 laughable jailterms.

magpie

of the 4 lads prosecuted, the only one convicted was the one who did the right thing, whose parents marched him up to the Garda station to admit he was there and involved. even though he was not involved at the time of the actual killing.

Bingo. Rentacops were only able to get a conviction on the people that actually admitted to being present by coming forward after hearing yerman had died on the radio, through an overactive sense of having to do the right thing. Of course the other dozens present (several of which probably did the actual killing) sensibly kept shtum and the fuzz had nothing on them.

Also, I think there was undue publicity about the case as the boys were from priviledged backgrounds, which undoubtedly had an effect on the jury. Also there was pressure to be seen to 'be tough', where I suspect that if this had been between families on a council estate in Limerick there would have been at most suspended sentences, that is if they'd been able to secure convictions. And nobody would've cared less.

2 years for violent disorder? Come on. Besides which, should they not be out at this stage? I believe the average for a 'life' sentence is about 7 years now and these guys have been inside for over a year.

EDIT/

would they have gone straight to gards if thats the case,
i agree money buys freedom but they were entiled to a fair trial just like everybody.
But the case would not have gotten as much front page publicity if it had been a group of guys from Finglas, Ballymun, Tallaght ?
I think the court case mentioned that other people were involved but didnt come forward, the only people arrested in this case were the four guys who at least had the decency to admit their involvment.
plus most of the newspapers play down the fact that the victim started the fight.
Nobody deserves to die like that but if you pick a fight with someone & theres a gang of mates involved expect the worst.
There was a long running(longest running in state history at the time) murder case back in 1993 (ish) involving 4 guys from tallaght who killed a doorman out in Dunlaoire.
i knew the family of one of the guys involved it never got more than a secondary headline,no photos no shock horror stories, no pictures of the victim in his communion suit ,during the case & it was on the front page once when the guys were aquitted.
In other words the working class can kick each other to death every week & nobody cares, this case wouldve passed into history like all the others.

Only just read your post, and I've reiterated most of it. Suffice to say I agree with you strongly.

Ph3n0m

To be honest, a friend of mine got it spot on

If they were from a "rougher" part of Dublin - they would have only been a paragraph in passing in the Evening Hearld and gotten a lot more years for the attack.

I think its a shame (for use of better words) that we still live in a society with one law for the rich and one for the poor

Lord Panic

Magpie's got it exactly right. Its pretty unlikely that the right people were convicted, and people from another background would never have had so much hype about the case, the outcome would'v been very different.

magpie

If they were from a "rougher" part of Dublin - they would have only been a paragraph in passing in the Evening Hearld and gotten a lot more years for the attack.

I think its a shame (for use of better words) that we still live in a society with one law for the rich and one for the poor

If they'd been from a rougher part of Dublin there would have been no case, as nobody would have come forward and admitted to being involved. So yes, you're right there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. Only the 'rich' would be stupid enough to think that by going to the cops and admitting limited responsibility that they could clear their name, rather than getting fitted-up for manslaughter.

OFDM

When they got convicted people were saying they'd have gotten off if they were from Ballymun - now that they got off, people are saying if they were from Ballymun they wouldn't have got off.

It's all BS and doubletack tbh..

seamus

The entire case was full of holes. It wasn't so much that they were priviledged that the law went easy on them, but they were priviledged so they had access to the best solicitors (many of their parent would have been solicitors), and consulted them *before* anything happened.

Joe Heroin on the street does his crime, gets arrested on the street red-handed, and only talks to a solicitor after the arrest. That's the difference. Most of these guys would have heard of this on the radio, their parents would say - "You were in Annabels last night, were you involved?", kid answers in a slight affirmative, and the parent says "Right, well keep your head down. You don't remember seeing anything", and other sorts of legal bric-a-brack.

Those four guys weren't the only ones involved, and most likely were the scapegoats. The conflicting of stories certainly indicates that the kids were being told what to say.

It's a symptom of our modern legal system that the guy who did the right thing took the hardest fall.

magpie

now that they got off

Only 1 conviction was quashed yesterday, and that was for the guy who was out on bail anyway.

Sean Mackey is still doing 2 years in Portlaoise for Violent Disorder

Dermot Laide is still doing 2 years in Portlaoise for Violent Disorder and will have to go through a retrial for his manslaughter conviction. In other words this whole can of worms is going to get reopened. Cue lazy journalism about the 'rot at the core of the moneyed classes etc etc etc'.

It's a symptom of our modern legal system that the guy who did the right thing took the hardest fall.

Amen

dearg_doom

one of my points is though:

D4 kills D4 -> media frenzy -> ridiculously short sentences, aquittals

knacker kills knacker -> noone give a ****

BUT had it of been

knacker kills D4 -> there would have been a lot more uproar, convictions, tougher sentences.

magpie

ridiculously short sentences

Is 2 years ridiculously short for being one of up to 20 people in a fight that resulted in one person being killed by persons unknown?

As I said, people who get life sentences for murder can be out in 7 years, these guys have already been in jail for what? 14 months? Of course they can't be paroled

a) Because the justice system can't be seen to favour its own to the extent they get rougher treatment than bog standard criminals

b) Because of the potential uproar from those who, despite the facts of the case, think that they got off lightly just because they were priviledged

In other words, they're caught between a rock and a hard place, and are basically ****ed.

seamus

dearg_doom wrote:

media frenzy

There's your thing right there. If the media didn't make a big deal out of it, no-one would have cared about this either. It wasn't a bigger deal than any other killing until the media told the public it was. The media control what the public thinks, the public doesn't control what the media print.

Keyzer

The general consensus here is that some of the parties involved came forward and where charged accordingly, others involved didn't speak up and therefore got away with it.
If this is the case, wtf did the police do about this?
They know other people are involved, is it that they are so inept that they can't investigate the issue properly or was it that so many mouths stayed shut that it was impossible for the police to get to the bottom of what happened.

seamus

Keyzer wrote:

If this is the case, wtf did the police do about this?
They know other people are involved, is it that they are so inept that they can't investigate the issue properly or was it that so many mouths stayed shut that it was impossible for the police to get to the bottom of what happened.

There was little to no evidence other than what people thought they saw. Most of the current convictions were secured based on the four lads' stories, and some thrid-party witnesses relating to what the lads said to them the next day.
Everyone else kept schtum. It's that easy. One guy kicking another guy to death, forensic evidence would help. Multiple people kicking one guy to death, and forensic evidence can begin to be more of a wild goose chase than a help. Without physical evidence, everything else relies on testimony and confession. No testimony about anyone else, no evidence.

(Moved to Humanities)

dearg_doom

magpie-> my point is not the two years, sorry for my wording,

my point was that two people were convicted when, as you say, up to (or more then?) 20 people were involved.

these 18 people or whatever are right now getting on with there lives as if nothing happened. that is wrong.


keyzer hit the nail on the head!

seamus

dearg_doom wrote:

these 18 people or whatever are right now getting on with there lives as if nothing happened. that is wrong.

Of course. But what are you gonna do about it?

dearg_doom

bemoan the fact on an internet forum:) not much else I can do,

Blub2k4

Keyzer wrote:

If this is the case, wtf did the police do about this?
They know other people are involved, is it that they are so inept that they can't investigate the issue properly or was it that so many mouths stayed shut that it was impossible for the police to get to the bottom of what happened.

I remember a similar case to this once, maybe a concrete barrier blocking entry to Donnybrook would help?

Q_Ball

It's a symptom of our modern legal system that the guy who did the right thing took the hardest fall.

If they had all stayed quiet, the police wouldn't have had a lead and they cant just leave a murder unsolved, particularily in this case. Someone would have taken the fall for it, there may have been plenty of more arrests and a few more convictions.

I think its more of a shame that those who weren't convicted got off because they could afford better legal council whereas a regular joe bloggs who cant afford €9000 a day would have had a better chance of being convicted. If the (free) representation appointed by the court for the accused (defendant?) is supposed to do their best for their client (i feel sorry for these guys, the solicitors and barristers i mean), why cant the other party who cant afford legal representation for the other party (plaintiff?) be entitled to the same level of representation?

i also agree with dearg_doom

one of my points is though:

D4 kills D4 -> media frenzy -> ridiculously short sentences, aquittals

knacker kills knacker -> noone give a ****

BUT had it of been

knacker kills D4 -> there would have been a lot more uproar, convictions, tougher sentences

One thing that springs to mind and is completely OT but was something this brought to mind are the trees on mount merrion avenue. Had dublin bus planned a QBC for the same kind of irregular, underused route in my area not a whisper would be said. this leads me to two things:

1) people in my area are more focused on bringing in a wage packet at the end of the week than a couple of trees because they have to be

2) people in my area dont give a toss either way

sorry for the OT waffle i'll stop now

Keyzer

Blub2k4 wrote:

I remember a similar case to this once, maybe a concrete barrier blocking entry to Donnybrook would help?

What are you on about?

Blub2k4

Keyzer wrote:

What are you on about?

Dont worry it'd take a mental somersault on your part to work it out which was the point of my post.

Keyzer

Blub2k4 wrote:

Dont worry it'd take a mental somersault on your part to work it out which was the point of my post.

Oh I know what your talking about.
For those who don't - Myself and Blub had an argument about travellers a while back in which he/she refused to listen to anything anyone had to say who didn't agree with he/she's opinion.

Now please enlighten me, what has our traveller argument got to do with the Brian Murphy case, cos if you can connect the two then you need your head examined.

So again, what point are you trying to make?

BTW - The fifth definition of your name is very funny and quite apt me thinks

5. blub
A complete and utter nonce. A lump of useless boy-fat and pie, that just flops around wasting resources and generally acting like a fat rotund twat.
Blub is a twat
You're nearly as fat as blub
Blub = ghey

mike65

I think part of the reason, edit - I KNOW part of the reason this case got so much pubicity was because the dead lad had well educated parents who could articulate thier grief and anger and that as the media for the most part consists of likeminded ppl they got a hearing that a less articulate, mumbling couple from "working class" Dublin just would'nt have got.

Mike.

nlgbbbblth

btw - there's a similar trial going on in Wexford District Court at the moment about a Swedish guy who was killed in my hometown. Ten people are on trial.

Don't see the media making an issue of their backgrounds. These dudes are most definitely not in the Blackrock college/rugger-bugger mould.

Does this mean if they get off a lot less people will be complaining?

Probably.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

The poor will always be anonymous...

Mike.

Hairy Homer

dearg_doom wrote:

one of my points is though:

D4 kills D4 -> media frenzy -> ridiculously short sentences, aquittals

knacker kills knacker -> noone give a ****

BUT had it of been

knacker kills D4 -> there would have been a lot more uproar, convictions, tougher sentences.

Get your facts right.

Castleblaney, where Dermot Laide is from, is in Monaghan, not Dublin 4
Dalkey, where Desmond Ryan is from, is in Co Dublin, not Dublin 4
Foxrock, where Sean Mackey is from, is in Dublin 18 not Dublin 4
Blackrock College, their school, is in Co Dublin, not Dublin 4
Donnybrook, where Andrew Frame is from, IS in Dublin 4

That's one out of four defendants who actually comes from Dublin 4 and his case was thrown out early on by the judge.

I DO come from Dublin 4 and I resent your lazy, presumptuous, bigoted and, on the evidence of this case wholly inaccurate suggestion, that it is the residence of the over privileged, the corrupt and the wealthy.

It's not.

It's a deadly place actually.

Now if we could just keep those la-di-dah- Blackrock College boys out of it, it would be even better. :-)

magpie

Well said Hairy Homer

HJ Simpson

Its a class thing all right just glad to see that the upper middle class protect their own. No one saw anything eventhough it happened outside a nightclub frequented by rugby playing schools where a lot of people know each other and those involved.! Just like the more woking class areas. Its a sad state for society

MrPudding

HJ Simpson wrote:

Its a class thing all right just glad to see that the upper middle class protect their own. No one saw anything eventhough it happened outside a nightclub frequented by rugby playing schools where a lot of people know each other and those involved.! Just like the more woking class areas. Its a sad state for society

Do you mean that if it happened in a "working class" nightclub witnesses would be beating down the door of the nearest cop shop begging to give statements?

The long and the short of it is the conviction was quashed because of shoddy work by the police. Had they done thier work properly in the first place the conviction would not have been overturned.

Here is a headline for you "Family in trying their best to get son out of jail shocker!"

This conviction was overruled on very basic but important technicalities. I would be surprised if any lawyer, however cheap, was not able to pick up on that.

Mrp

Nasty_Girl

nlgbbbblth wrote:

btw - there's a similar trial going on in Wexford District Court at the moment about a Swedish guy who was killed in my hometown. Ten people are on trial.

Don't see the media making an issue of their backgrounds. These dudes are most definitely not in the Blackrock college/rugger-bugger mould.

Does this mean if they get off a lot less people will be complaining?

Probably.

That's just it, we can all be killin each other down in the south and who cares. But thats probably a good thing, media-wise. The irish media wouldn't really want to advertise that a bunch of thugs bet up a foreigner and left him to die in the street.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

nlgbbbblth

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

New Ross is my hometown
This sucks and those guys are scumbags

But there won't be an outcry because they got off - I wonder why?

LarryClavin

Wherever it is right and just to speak out and act against people who engage in killing in any form, of anybody, that is what makes us belong to a society. It is decency, honor and righteousness which makes us human and them animals...

Morag

Eliot Rosewater

Please don't resurrect old threads like this LarryClavin. If there are topics you want to discuss you are welcome to start a new thread.

Closed.

/mod.