Why practice kata at all...

pma-ire

...if you don't believe in them as a practical form of combat training?

I'm not flaming here, just asking the question

If I did not feel that the applications I can teach to people taken from kata (tul) were not gonna do them any good then I would drop them like a hot cake.

Roper

People train patterns for many reasons. For tradition, for a workout, for the historical value, because they are a part of what they do.

I think you're taking the pattern issue as the whole, when it's only a part of the issue. Personally, I have a problem with Technique training. Technique after technique after technique, with no practical application. Patterns, Kata, Tul, whatever, are part of that whole but I'll give you another example which may give you a broader perspective. I have been learning grappling "techniques" for about 7 years now. Chokes, locks, armbars, guard.... all in a passive way with little resistance. Imagine my surprise when I went to grapple with anyone who knew how to MOVE properly how easy it was for them to escape. I knew nothing of the fundamentals, positioning etc. IMO if you base your training purely on techniques, you are an encyclopedia. Full of knowledge but without the tools to apply it.

I know it probably makes you shrug and wonder why I would still train patterns after this but it's still something I enjoy doing, because believe it or not I have never really trained for self defence, whatever that means, but for fun, fitness, competition, and the all over good feeling

pma-ire

Thanks for your reply roper

Roper wrote:

I think you're taking the pattern issue as the whole, when it's only a part of the issue. Personally, I have a problem with Technique training. Technique after technique after technique, with no practical application.

I don't take them as the whole. But a vaid way to help people to relate to there fighting style. The whole point of PTKD is to pressure test applications and the goal is to let the person evolve to a free flowing free style after gaining muscle memory and balance and the basic feel of combat.

Roper wrote:

IMO if you base your training purely on techniques, you are an encyclopedia. Full of knowledge but without the tools to apply it.

This is why all students work with partners from the start. I don't spend much of the session on solo kata at all really. But the student must learn movement with and without resistance.

Roper wrote:

I know it probably makes you shrug and wonder why I would still train patterns after this but it's still something I enjoy doing, because believe it or not I have never really trained for self defence, whatever that means, but for fun, fitness, competition, and the all over good feeling

Thats cool Roper man I don't expect to change anyones view on here, just trying to see why "you" do things

pearsquasher

Check my information on kata in this thread to see why we practice them in the Bujinkan.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=226997

Stark

I agree with Roper. I have a black belt which I got through knowledge of technique, but there's no way I would win in any sort of fight.

pma-ire

Stark wrote:

I agree with Roper. I have a black belt which I got through knowledge of technique, but there's no way I would win in any sort of fight.

I'm sorry that you feel you have to say that

Roper

He's probably echoing the sentiments of a lot of people who've trained for a long period of time without proper sparring and have then have something "put up" to them and have to look at what they've been taught. Critical analysis is the only path to improvement. If you can look at your training and say "I'm fine, I can do the things I want to do" then fine.

Personally, I looked at my training and said "I can't do some of the things I thought I could" after testing and analysis. Thats not disrespecting your art, thats not putting systems down, thats critically analysing, and then highlighting areas you want to improve, and then acting.

If the focus of your training is Self defence, that is to say, defending yourself from a street encounter, then you have to look at all the scenarios and train for each of them against aggressive, resisting opponents. If your focus is sports fighting, be that MMA, Points, Semi-contact continuos or full-contact, then you focus on your game in that arena. If your focus is pure enjoyment, then you do whatever floats your boat.
Where you're going to have a problem however, is when you do whatever floats your boat, and convince yourself or have others convince you (more likely) that this is applicable in one of the first two scenarios.
Like patterns.

columok

Why do solo Katas?

Its your idea of fun!
You enjoy something with a certain esoteric approach
You enjoy perfecting stylised movements

Why should they be skipped over?

Dont teach combat skills
Eat up time that can be spent conditioning, sparring etc.
Some stances can damage the knees especially when prolonged


If you have no illusions then I think its cool to do katas.

Mark Leonard described them (or paraphrased someone else) saying that they are like dynamic meditation. Once you dont make more of them than they are then I say work away!

D

A friend of mine who has a hell of a lot more experience than i do told me a long time ago that "Belts are only good for holding your trousers up. You'll learn a whole lot more from one or two practical examples than months of training." I so think that this is true now.

Clive

Why practice kata at all...
if you don't believe in them as a practical form of combat training?

For the ladies...

pma-ire

I started this thread again to show there is no point in us on were fighting it out about MMA v TMA.

So lets agree to disagree and quit wasting time on it :rolleyes: