proof of ownership on second hand private sale

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 12:44pm #1

Hi All, I'm going to look at a Ford Focus '99 this evening and was wondering how do I know I'm (a) talking to the legal owner, and (b) there's nothing outstanding on the car i.e. hire purchase etc.
The reason I ask is I'm meeting the guy in a carpark, he says it's beside where he works, no cause to doubt him but just means I don't know his address. Also only got a mobile contact number, and he said the car isn't taxed.
Don't mean to be paranoid or anything, just want to know how I can be sure that the car and guy are kosher.
The specs for the car look really good, 1.6 with 45k on the clock, all electrics windows, wing mirrors etc, nct is up in August though he says it shouldn't be a problem as it's just been serviced and very well maintained. He's asking for €5300 which sounds really good (I think) but wondering if it's too good to be true.

Any advice?

Cheers

fletch · 14-02-2005 12:47pm

That seems verry cheap....isn't the first rule of going to look at a car that you do not meet them in a neutral location....

lomb · 14-02-2005 12:53pm

DamoKen wrote:

Hi All, I'm going to look at a Ford Focus '99 this evening and was wondering how do I know I'm (a) talking to the legal owner, and (b) there's nothing outstanding on the car i.e. hire purchase etc.
The reason I ask is I'm meeting the guy in a carpark, he says it's beside where he works, no cause to doubt him but just means I don't know his address. Also only got a mobile contact number, and he said the car isn't taxed.
Don't mean to be paranoid or anything, just want to know how I can be sure that the car and guy are kosher.
The specs for the car look really good, 1.6 with 45k on the clock, all electrics windows, wing mirrors etc, nct is up in August though he says it shouldn't be a problem as it's just been serviced and very well maintained. He's asking for €5300 which sounds really good (I think) but wondering if it's too good to be true.

Any advice?

Cheers

tell him that u want to meet him at his house after u c the car if u are interested. tell him if u will purchase it u want a certified copy of his driving license certified by the garda, a receipt saying the car is his to sell, his name full address and signed with the amount of the transaction and that its his to sell. ask to see a utility bill aswell .

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 12:56pm

fletch wrote:

That seems verry cheap....isn't the first rule of going to look at a car that you do not meet them in a neutral location....

yeah well he lives in Meath, I'm in Dublin, this is a handy location for both of us. Wouldn't be planning on parting with any cash today, but before driving up where he says he lives I'd like to see if it's worth the trip. If it looks like a good one I'd plan to go up some day during the week to his house and buy it, want to know though if log book (or equivalent) is sufficient to prove he owns the car. Also how to find out if any outstanding debt is on it.

Phryxus · 14-02-2005 1:02pm

Seems a bit weird meeting in a car park but you could just ask to see the registration forms and his id to make sure it's his. As far as hire purchace is concerned I'm not sure but if you take down the reg I'm sure there's somewhere you can call. If a garage is buying a car off someone they'd always have a procedure which should include checking, ask someone there.

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 1:05pm

lomb wrote:

tell him that u want to meet him at his house after u c the car if u are interested. tell him if u will purchase it u want a certified copy of his driving license certified by the garda, a receipt saying the car is his to sell, his name full address and signed with the amount of the transaction and that its his to sell. ask to see a utility bill aswell .

cheers guys, hopefully it's all above board, but some handy tips anyway to play it safe. If it turns out everything is good on it what do you reckon anyway, a good deal?

masto1983 · 14-02-2005 1:05pm

There is a number my father uses to check for outstanding debt, it costs around a tenner I think. Someone here should know the name.
If you have any mates in the guards, i'd get them to run a check too.

seamus · 14-02-2005 1:17pm

The first rule of selling is that you meet the buyer in a neutral location so they don't know where you live! Conflict of interests there

Seth Brundle · 14-02-2005 2:05pm

"Hire Purchase Information" 01 2600905 can tell you if there is outstanding payments on the car,e tc.

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 3:23pm

kbannon wrote:

"Hire Purchase Information" 01 2600905 can tell you if there is outstanding payments on the car,e tc.

cheers KBannon, just gave them a call, I'll get the reg & chassis number this evening and they'll run a finance check tomorrow.

lomb · 14-02-2005 3:32pm

DamoKen wrote:

cheers KBannon, just gave them a call, I'll get the reg & chassis number this evening and they'll run a finance check tomorrow.

how much will it cost?

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 3:35pm

DamoKen wrote:

cheers KBannon, just gave them a call, I'll get the reg & chassis number this evening and they'll run a finance check tomorrow.

just thought of something, does anyone know where exactly to look in the Ford Focus engine for the chassis number? Also is this a standard number irrespective of car type? i.e is it a standard length or could I confuse it for another number?

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 3:41pm

lomb wrote:

how much will it cost?

15 euro, not a lot when you consider the alternative of some repo man kicking in your door

ando · 14-02-2005 5:43pm

€5300 is very cheap, beware

BrianD · 14-02-2005 5:50pm

It's a real problem for the private buyer to check up on whether a car is still under HP or lease agreement. Good to see that there is a number that you can check it out on. Up to now, garages had access to the info but not Joe Public. If you buy a car that is still under HP you never get good title to it and the HP company can seize it at any time.

lomb · 14-02-2005 6:01pm

BrianD wrote:

It's a real problem for the private buyer to check up on whether a car is still under HP or lease agreement. Good to see that there is a number that you can check it out on. Up to now, garages had access to the info but not Joe Public. If you buy a car that is still under HP you never get good title to it and the HP company can seize it at any time.

is this really true as i think it is not although may be wrong. my understanding of it was if it was a private sale then the new buyer legally owns the car and the hp company persues the seller. if a trade sale the garage unfortunately would lose title.
i believe a receipt showing the amount and the name and address of the seller and stating the vendor owns the car and has the right to sell it and has no finance outstanding on it covers the private buyer of it.

Seth Brundle · 14-02-2005 7:36pm

if it is not someone's to sell then no matter what way you word it, it is not soneone's to sell!

D!ve^Bomb! · 14-02-2005 7:39pm

ando wrote:

€5300 is very cheap, beware

absolutely, that is VERY cheap!! sounds suspect

lomb · 14-02-2005 7:43pm

kbannon wrote:

if it is not someone's to sell then no matter what way you word it, it is not soneone's to sell!

correct however cars under hp are unique and i heard legislation was draughted a while ago to protect unsuspecting private punters.if the reg documents indicate 'ownership' then it is very unique that someone else has a title on the asset.

lomb · 14-02-2005 7:47pm

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

absolutely, that is VERY cheap!! sounds suspect

if its too cheap... if the guy looks alright get an rac inspection if u dont know about cars and then a receipt. examine the vin plate carefully to see it isnt a different (stolen) car. in this case title WILL rest with the stolen cars insurers and u will have no rights. this is why i suggested u get a certified copy of his license and pick the car up at his address with a full receipt. unless he wil be soon to be bankrupt u will always have a right to persue him for the cash with a FULL receipt legally even if there isnt any legislation protecting private buyers. at that price there may be something up??????
could be clocked, mechanically screwed, stolen, severe crash repaired an insurance write off, under finance. it really is a minefield out their. also remember few irish cars are well looked after..........

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 9:38pm

just back from bringing it for a test drive, I took a new Ford Focus for a test drive at the weekend, exact same model, the Focus Gia and I could've been driving the same one tonight. No discernible difference that I could see, steering was fine, brakes, clutch & gears all seemed as smooth as they should. Couldn't notice any signs of a respray on the bodywork though admittedly a streetlight at night is not the best possible light to notice such things. In fact the only faults I could see were a hole half the size of a 1 cent coin in the rear brake light cover, and the molding covering the passenger wing mirror was loose though it looks like it should clip back in. In all fairly minor and nothing I'd get upset over. The main concern is that the nct is up at the end of this month so the question that begs to be answered is why not run it through the test first and add a grand or 2 at least to the price?
Also as already mention is the concern that it mightn't be totally legit, the guy seemed fine but a bit iffy about a bank draft, saying his father would prefer cash (he's looking after the sale for his Dad). Just talked to his sister though (the whole family are in on it!) she rang to tell me a bank draft is fine, told her I want to bring my mechanic up to have a look at it too and she didn't seem put out at all so maybe I'm just being paranoid. With all the horror stories out there though I'd rather be paranoid then broke courtesy of you've been done. Anyways hope to get my mechanic up to have a look at it tomorrow or Wednesday latest, let y'all know how it goes. Thanks for all the advice, well appreciated!

Our man in Havana · 14-02-2005 9:52pm

Do check for outstanding HP!

DamoKen · 14-02-2005 10:33pm

Bond-007 wrote:

Do check for outstanding HP!

no worries, got the chassis number & reg tonight, going to ring and check tomorrow.

Cheers

bazz26 · 14-02-2005 11:49pm

Couldn't notice any signs of a respray on the bodywork though admittedly a streetlight at night is not the best possible light to notice such things.

Never view a car in the dark or rain, it is impossible to check the body work in the dark for damage or mismatching paint work. View it in natural daylight and go to the back of the car and look along the waistline from the rear lights up along the doors to the front wing and look for signs of ripples. Any ripples is a possible sign of panel beating work. Also check the gaps between panels especially where doors join the wings, where the bonnet joins the headlamps or bumper, they should be near perfect fit, any serious misalignment here may be a sign of repair work.

The main concern is that the nct is up at the end of this month so the question that begs to be answered is why not run it through the test first and add a grand or 2 at least to the price?

Running it through the NCT will not add a grand or two to the value of the car but will give you peace of mind that the car is mechanically sound. Get the current owner to get it NCT'd before buying it especially if it is due at the end of this month. If it passes the NCT then you can give them the price of the test back. If there is nothing wrong then they should have no problem agreeing to this.

If you are getting your mechanic to check out the car have him check the brakes. The Focus is know to have had an issue with the brakes.

Hope it works out for you. Best of luck.

DamoKen · 17-02-2005 1:33pm

Ok, got my mechanic to have a look at the car Tuesday evening to see if everything was ok with it. So here's the results:

Firstly before I even got out to meet with the seller and my mechanic got a call from a mate in the Gardai to tell me that the car had been in a crash last year (I'd expressly asked if it had been in any crashes before I test drove it and predictably was told no), extent of damage not in the report but the driver had been up for dangerous driving. Not a good start but maybe the damage wasn't too severe, anyway my mechanic should be able to spot it.
So arrive at the garage, the seller arrives and the mechanic goes off in a test drive. In the meantime I ask a few more questions to the seller, (note I talked to one person initially on the phone Sunday), another Monday, meet another Monday night and now this was another! Turns out they're all brothers and sisters (12 in all) and it's their fathers car. Anyway, contradictions straight away when I ask the same question I'd asked the others as to why the car is being sold, another had answered vaguely that their father just wanted to get rid of it to buy a new car, this one said their father dealt in used cars so I was in fact buying from a dealer, though the change of ownership doc was apparently from another garage where the boyfriend of one worked, all very confusing and suspect to say the least!
So the mechanic arrives back, checks out the underside of the car and asks me to tell the seller I'll get back to them the next day.
After they left he told me what he'd found.
Firstly hand brake was one pull from a snapped cable (thought it had seemed very loose the night before).
Catalytic converter was gone, would need to be replaced.
Gearbox was on it's last legs, (again the night before I'd had trouble getting 3rd gear, thought maybe it was just because I wasn't used to the car?).
Rear suspension on the right hand side was so worn it was practically non existent, would need to be totally replaced.
Car was very dirty, nothing a good wash wouldn't fix, but is also as he said one of the oldest tricks in the book to mask differences in paintwork to cover a respray.
Also looked like at some time in the past it had recieved a considerable impact to the rear.
Lastly, based on what he found was the mileage, for all the wear and tear he'd found, 45000 miles just didn't add up, so in his opinion it had been clocked and at a rough guess should have been around 100000+!
So yes, there was a reason behind the suspiciously low price, in fact multiple reasons, and no, didn't buy it

. Just a word of warning of what you can find advertised and think of as a "deal of a lifetime", always pays to check out any private sale with a fine tooth comb. About the only thing clean about this car was the credit check I ran on it. Thanks to all for the advice on what to look out for, and also anyone looking for a used Ford Focus, beware the silver saloon 99 MO going for €5300 with "45000" on the clock advertised in the very useful and totally non responsible B&S.

Cheers

Damo

P.S going to a dealership on Sat owned by a mate of my mechanic to check out & probably buy a Focus with genuine mileage, a new NCT & a warranty for an extra 2500 but after what I saw Tuesday you get what you pay for!

lomb · 17-02-2005 1:38pm

well done for not getting stroked. all sounded very iffy from the word go. id say it had clocked in excess of 150000 miles from what u describe. focuss are very well built cars.

DamoKen · 17-02-2005 2:16pm

lomb wrote:

well done for not getting stroked. all sounded very iffy from the word go. id say it had clocked in excess of 150000 miles from what u describe. focuss are very well built cars.

cheers, know it sounded a bit dodgy, but you know the way, you see something you really want so you hope against hope that that little voice of caution in your head is wrong. As with many other times it's proved to be right, but then again nothing ventured nothing gained. Learnt a lot about what to watch out for too so not a total waste of time

!

lomb · 17-02-2005 3:20pm

DamoKen wrote:

cheers, know it sounded a bit dodgy, but you know the way, you see something you really want so you hope against hope that that little voice of caution in your head is wrong. As with many other times it's proved to be right, but then again nothing ventured nothing gained. Learnt a lot about what to watch out for too so not a total waste of time !

Wel thats true, u learned a very cheap valuble lesson and thats RARE! can i ask who paid for the mechanic and what he charged out of interest?.
i reakon the moral is to only buy from the vendor, inspect the documents like a hawk, insist it has a recent nct or else pay for another one yourself even. if the seller looks dodgy in any way walk away, no run away!

DamoKen · 17-02-2005 4:01pm

lomb wrote:

Wel thats true, u learned a very cheap valuble lesson and thats RARE! can i ask who paid for the mechanic and what he charged out of interest?.
i reakon the moral is to only buy from the vendor, inspect the documents like a hawk, insist it has a recent nct or else pay for another one yourself even. if the seller looks dodgy in any way walk away, no run away!

I paid him myself, though initially when I asked what I owed him he said don't worry about it, I can fix him up when I get sorted with a car. Really nice guy, had to insist a few times that I pay him something as he spent over half an hour looking at it and then another 10 minutes going through what was wrong, what to look out for etc. In the end he accepted 20 which is really cheap. On top of that 15 for the credit check, and I reckon a few beers next time I meet up with my mate who checked it's crash history

. Money well spent though, rather spend a few quid at the start rather than go through the heartbreak of replacement parts, repairs etc not to mention the initial outlay for a dud!

BrianD · 17-02-2005 4:15pm

Good to see that GArdai are able to provide information from the computer system! There's me thinking it was useless and sure who cares about the data protection act!

Seth Brundle · 17-02-2005 4:17pm

I got a mechanic to come with me last year whilst viewing a car and will openly admit that it was the best €50* I ever spent on a car!
* included a tip!

DamoKen · 17-02-2005 4:32pm

BrianD wrote:

Good to see that GArdai are able to provide information from the computer system! There's me thinking it was useless and sure who cares about the data protection act!

well originally what I asked was to check if it was stolen as the price seemed very cheap. Seems a bit strange that legally when buying a second hand car there is no way you can find out by normal means if a car is legit or not other than the doc's provided by the seller. The fact it had been in a crash only came up as a result of this. While I'm quite a trusting person the fact that the seller told me the car had never been in an accident and a crash being recorded against it proving otherwise made me for once not mind too much that the data protection act was circumvented. I'm generally in favour of data protection, but when it's protecting someone who is just trying to rip me off by lying about a dodgy product than my opinion changes somewhat!

proof of ownership on second hand private sale

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