Micro Limits cash game hands starring me.

Lafortezza

I have $52, Villain has $36. He's a decent player for the micro limits 5c/10c, tight and aggressive, I've been at the table about half an hour and have only seen him show down strong hands.
I've been betting every time I thought I might be ahead, winning lots of pots uncontested and folding to reraises when I was caught with hand in cookie jar. Probably seen as a decent but aggressive and bluffing player.

I call UTG with 8c8s
Folded to Villain who raises to 60c, 1 caller in LP, blinds fold, I call. 3 to the flop, pot = $1.95

Flop = 4 J 2 rainbow.
I lead for $1, Villain calls, LP calls. Pot = $4.95

Turn = 4 , still rainbow board.
I check, Villain checks, LP checks.

River = 8
I bet $2, Villain min-raises to $4, LP folds.
I raise $6 to $10, Villain min raises $6 to $16.

I call.
Thoughts?

Iago

yes, stop playing the .5/.10c games...to many muppets god only knows what he had!!

If it was me, then I'm holding JJ and I've milked you for every drop you have, I'll continue to min raise as long as you let me and take the most I can possibly get.

At those limits it could be AJ, J8s, or 44 or 22 or even AK and hoping he's outkickered you...(unlikely but I've seen it happen) other possibilities at this level are QQ and KK


Anyway at the point I would flat call no sense in losing anymore money and he's obviously representing a big hand.

Hectorjelly

If hes a decent player then he has you beat. Id still call as he has very kindly min raised you again rather than a full pot bet as he should of, and your getting great odds on your $6. Standard play would be to bet the pot on the river and then called or folded to a raise, I dont see the point of the underbet. His min raising is pretty horrible too, but then Ive never been a fan of the min raise, except as a ploy; but its pretty useless on the river except against a truly terrible opponent. The only hand in which a min bet works on the river for the opponent to hold is the second or third nuts, and in those cases a full pot bet will work almost as well.

careca

lafortezza wrote:

Probably seen as a decent player.

Thats the problem with those micro limit players, they are very bad judges

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont see the point of the underbet.

He called my flop bet, and he checked behind on the turn, I'm hoping to get a call from him and the LP player, I don't want them to fold to a big bet when they'll call a smaller one, there's plenty of hands that they will pay me off a little with.
I haven't seen any show of strength until the river shenanigans began, so I don't think the under bet on the river was that bad.

Villain shows JJ at showdown, had he stuck it all in on the river I'd have called.

Iago

lafortezza wrote:

He called my flop bet, and he checked behind on the turn, I'm hoping to get a call from him and the LP player, I don't want them to fold to a big bet when they'll call a smaller one, there's plenty of hands that they will pay me off a little with.
I haven't seen any show of strength until the river shenanigans began, so I don't think the under bet on the river was that bad.

Villain shows JJ at showdown, had he stuck it all in on the river I'd have called.

Did you just call the $6 raise or did you reraise again?

tbh I'm not sure that you could have gotten away from this hand for less. Although I'd probably have bet the turn anyway, particularily at the lower levels where a lot of players will call a smallish bet on the flop with Ax hoping to hit their A on the turn. A followup bet on the turn will get rid of them.

In this case though I think he'd of just flat called your bet on turn and taken more money from you, cest la vie, sometime you just get beaten by a better hand.

][cEMAN**

Maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't have raised on the flop, and if he had raised I would have folded. He's already raised pre-flop, so I would take him as a pocket pair or at least 1 face card.

I wouldn't have chanced that, incase he had another J never mind possible 2 pair on the flop. You still haven't hit your 8, you're not hitting a straight or a flush, and even if he is sitting with anything from 9-A, there's more chance of him hitting a second card in the deck than you hitting a third card in the deck. He might have even have had A3 or A5 suited and is sitting on a straight draw.

I'm inexperienced, but I would have called pre flop, but checked the flop and folded if he raised. I would have watched the board and kicked myself when the 8 flopped, but patted myself on the back when he threw up the Js

Iago

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't have raised on the flop, and if he had raised I would have folded.

You have to bet the flop, if only to find out where you are. there's only one overcard to your pair on the board and it's entirely possible that they've both missed the flop.

If neither player has a pair here they may fold overcards or even a low pair to a bet.

He's already raised pre-flop, so I would take him as a pocket pair or at least 1 face card. I wouldn't have chanced that, incase he had another J never mind possible 2 pair on the flop.

with the raise preflop you can't put him on two pair J4, J2 or 42 preflop and rasing? very unlikely, A pp is a concern but high or low who knows? AK, AQ, AT and even A9 are all possibilities, in which case you're ahead at this point.

You still haven't hit your 8, you're not hitting a straight or a flush, and even if he is sitting with anything from 9-A, there's more chance of him hitting a second card in the deck than you hitting a third card in the deck. He might have even have had A3 or A5 suited and is sitting on a straight draw.

You don't need to hit another card in this situation..

He has Ak,AQ, AT or A9 then he has 6 outs from 47 cards
can't see him raising with A3 or A5 to be honest, kicker is too low.

The only worry here is that he has flopped a set, the only way you can find that out is by betting. Even with a set 22 or 44 raising preflop is unlikely so he can only have JJ..

I in 8 times when that flop comes down the player you're up against will hit the set. Based on a preflop raise I'm discounting 22 or 44, that means that I only have to worry about JJ, definitely betting here to get an idea of where I am.

After that the hand plays itself out..

all the above based on my opinion rather than fact

][cEMAN**

Ah, see this is my inexperience showing through

I'd rather throw away what I would consider a potentially low hand and keep my cash for a better one. That's just me though, and how I play at the moment.

I can see what you mean about raising to see where you stand, but to me that's a semi bluff. I don't mind putting in a semi-bluff, but only against someone I know isn't the strongest of players, or who pulls a lot of pots from last man standing (possibly a big bluffer).

If he was a tight strong player as mentioned, then I would be wary about betting against him to check my stand. If he doesn't bluff that much, if I check he might - he could be trying to cover a good hand but then he might have nothing. If he bets then i'm going to think he's not bluffing, and looking to pad the pot or going for a draw card on a much stronger hand than 1 pair 8s.

I guess i've a lot to learn about betting, but like I said, for now that's just me

*edit - If i'd been sitting on a pair of Qs I would have checked anyway to see if he flopped the J's, and I would have check raised him, and been agressive to the river. That way he either calls my hand in a semi bluff and I get paid off, or he folds anyway, and I don't let him draw out a cheap winning hand (I hate the river )*

Iago

The problem with not betting on the flop is that you're giving two players the opportunity to hit a card that's ahead of your 8's.

If you don't bet on the flop and a A, K, Q, T or 9 comes down on the turn what would you do then? What if a second suited card came down on the turn? Now you have to worry about JJ, another higher pair and possibly a flush draw..

What if a 3 or a 5 comes down on the turn? Then you have a potential up and down straight draw for the river card as well...

Betting on the flop gives you an idea of where you stand. Sure sometimes you'll get reraised and have to fold but sometimes you'll be ahead and although you might callers should win the hand. Other times the players will fold to a bet and you'll take the pot there too...for this particular hand I'd bet the flop every time.

CuteCow

I dont want to sound too harsh on my first post, but you opened your legs to give him a clear shot.
Furthermore, I'd have just called his 6 after the river... your action is too greedy with imperfect knowledge. Save your chips for a clearer situation.

Iago

CuteCow wrote:

I dont want to sound too harsh on my first post, but you opened your legs to give him a clear shot.
Furthermore, I'd have just called his 6 after the river... your action is too greedy with imperfect knowledge. Save your chips for a clearer situation.

Ah c'mon now, say what you mean, no need to sit on the fence here we're all friends

I think he did just call the 6, or do you mean the min raise to 4 after he had bet 2?

in fairness I just think the Villian played the hand very well and allowed him to hit his cards and milked him from there. At that level the Villian could be playing with anything even if he's percieved as being a strong player, and there's only two possible hands he's behind JJ and 44, as I mentioned earlier I discounted 44 because of a preflop raise but AA, Kk, QQ, AJ, and even to a lesser extent TT and KJs are all probable hands here.

I don't think he played the hand badly

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

Ah c'mon now, say what you mean, no need to sit on the fence here we're all friends

I think he did just call the 6, or do you mean the min raise to 4 after he had bet 2?

in fairness I just think the Villian played the hand very well and allowed him to hit his cards and milked him from there. At that level the Villian could be playing with anything even if he's percieved as being a strong player, and there's only two possible hands he's behind JJ and 44, as I mentioned earlier I discounted 44 because of a preflop raise but AA, Kk, QQ, AJ, and even to a lesser extent TT and KJs are all probable hands here.

I don't think he played the hand badly

He played it pretty badly IMO, he just got lucky that his opponent wandered into a full house. He gave up on a ton of value on the flop and turn (against the range of hands he is likely to be against) and then the constant min raises on the river gives his exact holding away.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

You have to bet the flop, if only to find out where you are. there's only one overcard to your pair on the board and it's entirely possible that they've both missed the flop.

Betting the flop there has advantages and disadvantages, I almost never will but its a question of style.

Iago

Hectorjelly wrote:

He played it pretty badly IMO, he just got lucky that his opponent wandered into a full house. He gave up on a ton of value on the flop and turn (against the range of hands he is likely to be against) and then the constant min raises on the river gives his exact holding away.

are we talking about the hero or the villian?

To clarify, I don't think Luke (Hero, lost the hand) played the hand particularly badly...

Lafortezza

CuteCow wrote:

I dont want to sound too harsh on my first post, but you opened your legs to give him a clear shot.
Furthermore, I'd have just called his 6 after the river... your action is too greedy with imperfect knowledge. Save your chips for a clearer situation.

Well thanks for your input, I'll be sure to keep my legs crossed when I'm at my PC in future.

The reason I bet the flop is that I thought I could be ahead. He raised preflop but at this level (micro limits) people raise with anything from 66 to K10s to a big pocket pair. I didn't know which he had but I had a reasonable (compared to the flop) made hand. Had he reraised my flop bet I would have taken it that he had QQ or AJ or TT or something that I was behind and I would have folded.
Since he called my flop bet and didn't reraise (neither did LP) I figured them both for overcards or some kind of draw.
The turn paired the 4, Board: 4 J 2 4
I check, since someone with A4 or similar now has me beat, they all check behind, so the logical conclusion is that none of them has a four.

The river brings an 8. I have the 3rd nuts, only behind 2 hands, 44 and JJ. I bet the flop, nobody raised, the turn card was checked around so its not hard to think that I am miles away in front of both of them.

I underbet the river just to try and get at least 1 call and make some money off my full house. I get min-raised, hmmm maybe I had AJ and was slowplaying the flop, I raise again, he once again min-reraises me.
Now I start thinking ffs, maybe he *does* have JJ or 44. Since we're the two big stacks at the table I don't want to lose all my money in a car crash, since those min raises are screaming that he has a monster and wants to get paid.

Personally I thought the villain played the hand very well until the river. He has hit a monster hand on the flop and turn, but its a drawless board, no flush draws and some raggedy straight draw that missed the river.
His big mistake was the minraising muppetry on the river, had I bet the river and he had fired out a $20 reraise he probably would have got me to call at a minimum.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

are we talking about the hero or the villian?

To clarify, I don't think Luke (Hero, lost the hand) played the hand particularly badly...

No luke didnt play it badly at all