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Rick Clark Kata Application Seminars
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09-02-2005 10:12am#1
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Roper wrote:Best of luck with it Paul.
Forgot to say thanks for the post there Roper
Also if anyone wants to come along to my own class sessions in Mayfield to see some kata/tul/hyung/kuen applications. Drop me a line.
No charge for the session and it don't matter what grade you are. Sarjo Jurugi can be enough to get the point across 0 -
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For all the sceptics out there he's worth going along to just to hear his oh so sick jokes
Seriously though, there's no mumbo jumbo and, due to his heart problems, he approaches the pressure points more openly, seriously and straight to the point than others you might find.
There's no 'fire burns wood so hit here on 12th July whilst imagining orange and farting 'God save the queen' and he'll die in 70 years.'
It's more like 'this hurts, when you hit it this opens up and this hurts. etc.'
You can also get a chance to meet Paul and hit him too! 0 -
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Musashi wrote:Can I bring a Bokken and other hitty things?
So I can use them on you:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Gowan so
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Well I headed up to this seminar as it was local enough and I wanted to see for myself what the crack is with Pressure Points.Is it guys buying into mystical forces and convincing themselves that it works?Is it black magic that knocks guys out or stops their hearts with a touch?
Well I got up to Cork and met Paul (PMA_IRE) near his clubs hall.We then hopped in his car to go meet Rick Clark. First look at the man he looked like a late middle-aged American of medium height and build with an interest in Native American Jewellery.We had a chat over his lunch and then headed to the hall for the seminar.At no time was Rick Clark full of himself or boorish in any way,just a nice guy who's done some interesting stuff.
Got to the hall and changed into our Doboks,Gis,Tracksuits and met the other guys and Girl attending the seminar.Amother TKD guy and a few different Karate folks made up the group.Rick was introduced and straight off the bat started showing us where handy to get at points on the wrist and arm were,how to rub and later "tap" them and then how to combine two or more in a movement.
All of this was done in a no BS way as possible ,and I had decided **** or bust if I didn't feel the point working I would not go along with it for the sake of it.The pain that old ****er could generate was out of any proportion to the effort he was putting in! It hurt and it really did hurt,as well as weakening the knees and sometimes making you drop to the deck to make it stop.
It wasn't just me,he shared the hurting out among all the lads.We all got to try it on each other with a little coaching as to how to make it hurt more
Then we did some applications of the points and how to shift balance and take the center of an opponnent.
This was an eye opener for me as a sceptic and I will want to look into this some more.
Some of the wrist locks were very sore and dead handy for peeling folks off you that you'd rather not strike,drunken relation ever gotten stroppy at a family function??
I'm wrecked now and off to bed, but I'll post some more when I get a minute from moving house,feel free to ask questions and I'll get to em in time
Overall, a fun night though,and a pity I can't get up for the second night.
Oh, and his jokes are pretty sick even if he was behaving himself last night!0 -
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memphis wrote:I'll have a word with my instructor maybe he can show us some of the pressure point techniques Rick Clark showed ye, if permitted.
I would'int see why not? I'll have a word with him about it tonight for ya
The thing is that the actual moves are taken from your patterns it's just another way of looking at them.Tim_Murphy wrote:Not trying to start an arguement or anything but was he pulling this stuff off an actual resisting opponent? That would be cool to see.
No probs Tim many guys that hav'int been at a pressure point seminar or felt them done on their person think the same! I did myself!
I'll leave Musashi to answer your question on here as he has an outside view.0 -
was he pulling this stuff off an actual resisting opponent?
We didn't attack the guy or anything It was a seminar and we were there to see what this pressure point business ia about.We had to be shown where abouts the nerves come close to the surface and how to attack them.The hours flew by and to throw in some sparring with the teaching would have put us well over time!
I don't see any reason why the points can't be used against a resisting opppnnent though.For example,I've seen a combatives teacher recommend hammer fists and knife hand strikes to the forearms to release from a grab.Why not do exactly that but target the nerves in the forearms as well? You do the same as you'd normally do but include the points with it.If you don't get the point exactly right,you've lost nothing as you still hit the guy! Another point is on the back of the neck/head,right where you can slap them entering a thai style clinch or head control.
Whatever your usual style is you can find points to add a little extra to your usual attack.Like I was taught when applying an arm bar to roll the point above the elbow with the knife hand to get the joint to lock out.Works fine,but according to what Professor Clark teachs,it's probably got to do with manipulating the nerve and squashing it against the bone.The body wants to protect itself and will try to move away from damage,so helping in applying the lock.If I'm hitting a nerve point or whatever that's grand,I'm still using the same lock I always did to get the job done.
Obviously Rick Clark is very good at hitting these points and doesn't need to root around for em.I know roughly where a few are no,so I can knife hand or hammer fist that area and may get more value for the strike than usual,but the strike is going in which is the main thing.0 -
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No disrespect intended.... I'm sure Rick Clarke has a lot to offer and is very knowledgable.
Now any post that starts with that is going to ROCK
Seriously, I always approach any pressure point training things in Roger Moore mode (y'know, one eyebrow raised).
I'm particularly interested in this:
FC dictates never hit a bad target, and once you spar that way you realise why. The forearm to me, nerves or no nerves, is a bad target, a wasted strike. In fact it's exactly where most peoples guards are. If there were any pressure points there that were applicable for full contact, boxers and thai boxers would have found them long ago.Why not do exactly that but target the nerves in the forearms as well? You do the same as you'd normally do but include the points with it.If you don't get the point exactly right,you've lost nothing as you still hit the guy!
Personally, and maybe one of the Thai guys who posts here can refute this, I find it difficult enough to secure the clinch without attempting to slap. I will however, for the purpose of science, try to slap when I spar on saturday, if I can secure a clinch all day.....Another point is on the back of the neck/head,right where you can slap them entering a thai style clinch or head control. 0 -
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I love Roger's Bond karate chop and his crappy kicks (BTW Sean is much better at it!)Roper wrote:Seriously, I always approach any pressure point training things in Roger Moore mode (y'know, one eyebrow raised).
I'm particularly interested in this:
I guess they would if they were'int wearing gloves? We could all have hit points in competition of any sort purely by mistake. You know the Thai kick to the thigh that gives you a dead leg? Pressure point! Just most don't call it that! Did you ever hit your arm in that area around your funny bone and get a shock up your arm? Pressure point!Roper wrote:FC dictates never hit a bad target, and once you spar that way you realise why. The forearm to me, nerves or no nerves, is a bad target, a wasted strike. In fact it's exactly where most peoples guards are. If there were any pressure points there that were applicable for full contact, boxers and thai boxers would have found them long ago.
In any case if you don't directly target some points they won't be hit! Striking the arms is a brill way of breaking down an attack without putting yourself straight into the line of fire!
Have you ever been at a pressue point seminar? Or had them done to you? Or even looked them up in a book or video?Roper wrote:Personally, and maybe one of the Thai guys who posts here can refute this, I find it difficult enough to secure the clinch without attempting to slap. I will however, for the purpose of science, try to slap when I spar on saturday, if I can secure a clinch all day.....
If not then it is like what guys are saying about MMA without trying it!0 -
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Indeed! And as I said they were probably hitting things then and just calling it a sore place to hit! There is a big difference between hitting with gloves on to hitting bare knuckle. Pads were put on hands etc to protect the fighters while training and taking part in competion. When you put pads on it dulls down your striking tools and your strikes have to hit to bigger zones and areas. Which are still vaild zones with the pads taken off!columok wrote:Well boxing and thai were bareknuckle for most of their years so...
You have to be respected for your views there due to your original base art. But I have to say that I have used wrist locks FOR REAL and found them easy to use. I only ever hit a point static while showing someone where the point was. In practice I always ask for attacks to be thrown at me. If I hit the point I'm going for fine! But the striking of the point is not the a stand alone fighting style. But an addition to a delivery system which can be any art at all that strikes.columok wrote:My theory....
Pressure points(like the majority of wrist locks)- can work on a static non resisting opponent that youre stronger than. The minute equal or greater strength, resisting, fighting back and adrenaline numbness kick in I think they go out the window.
If theyre even low percentage then I see them being so low percentage that its better channelling your effort into more high percentage delivery systems.
I'm sure you tried to find a practical way of applying your skills in that style before leaving it. So I repeat, I have deep respect for your personal opinion
I'm just giving mine!0 -
Hi Paul, here we go again!!!
The Thai kick that gives you a dead leg isn't a great example of a pressure point IMO, at least for this argument as the Thai kick isn't a rub, nor a touch it's irresistable force! By your rationale, the deadener we would all give each other in school is a pressure point too.
I haven't studied pressure points in any great detail, no, but I have been privy to some attempted pressure point workings. I've never seen one work in a spar nor a fight except in one instance where both guys were practitioners of Jap JJ who used it extensively. In that instance I actually saw one guy giving the other an opening to use one as they were trying to impress a bunch of us who were watching. I've even heard one guy saying it doesn't work on fitter people!!!! In short, I have NO desire to train in pressure points as I'm satisfied with the things I'm doing right now.
I think what you are referring to when you say pressure point and then use it in relation to say, a Thai kick or arm bar, I would say is just a GOOD TARGET!
You seem to deal with the subject a little more practically then some people I've come across, but it still sounds to me like you're working in reverse. ie. finding what works and regressively searching for the source in TMA. This to me is more pseudo-science than any scientific method. Though I respect your right to train in whatever manner you wish and also your solidly held ideas
By the way LOL at everbodys "respect" for each others opinions! Why can't we have some good old fashioned scraps? After all, we're only talking!!! 0 -
By the way LOL at everbodys "respect" for each others opinions! Why can't we have some good old fashioned scraps? After all, we're only talking!!!
I was thinking that myself. On most other boards people would have flamed each other to death by now! Come on, someone throw a few digs! 0 -
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Sorry missed something important there....
Bullsh1t, see we don't have to be respectful!!!Striking the arms is a brill way of breaking down an attack without putting yourself straight into the line of fire!
Striking the arms is a waste of a strike unless you're confident your cardio is that much better then the other guys.0 -
When MMAer's/Functional JKDers use the term against a resisting opponent they are essentially saying
"Would that technique produce the same/desired effect if your opponent had intentions of causing you damage/disrupting your game?"
I'm just thinkin on the fly and that explanation above is probably a little off but to paraphrase Tim's question.
"Can you hit that exact pressure point intentionally in a dynamic situation while your opponent is trying to strike you/grapple you and will it produce the desired effect?"
Yep, thats what I meant, I probably wasn't being clear. Am I being lumped in with the "MMAer's/Functional JKDers" now?! Where did it all go wrong for me??!! :eek:
Paul,
I'm not saying the stuff doesn't work, I really have no idea, I'd just be skeptical about it until I saw it being pulled off for real.0 -
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LangerRoper wrote:Bullsh1t, see we don't have to be respectful!!!
If I was a belt-licker I might be shocked and stunned by that! :eek:
Cardio has F'all to do it it? What most folk call a block I call a strike!Roper wrote:Striking the arms is a waste of a strike unless you're confident your cardio is that much better then the other guys.
I ask the question to you Roper! Have you ever been hit on a pressure point anywhere? By someone that meant to hit it?
As I said this is like folk trying to argue about MMA without having tried it for themselves! Funny how the shoe don't fit on the otherside?0 -
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At one point in the seminar Rick did mention that he has an implanted defib. device on his heart and that his first "self-defense" move would be to draw his pistol as for him any fight is life and death.He isn't blinkered as he is high rank in several TMA and he does say that pressure points are not 100% on all people all the time.
It is a very interesting class though and probably would appeal more to TMA guys than Combat Sport Athletes.Any people still doing Kata or Patterns will take some new stuff away with them.
Now I just need to get more time freed up so I can get to John Kavanagh and the SBGi lads to see what they do,maybe PaddyC for some taste of Thai while I'm touring around
I'll be moving house tomorrow morning after working nights tonight so I may not be online over the weekend!!Hopefully though stuff will settle down so I can free up some time to go to more seminars and try some of the different styles that are about.
So if anyone is bringing over the likes of Matt Thornton or Geoff Thompson or whoever,post it up and let the boards folks have a look at what ye are doing.
Also, Dolfnep,where are you training? Is it out in Tramore or I've heard there is a MMA club in the City?? Any dates and times would be cool!0 -
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breadmonkey wrote:I was thinking that myself. On most other boards people would have flamed each other to death by now! Come on, someone throw a few digs!
Thats no fun!
It's been done to death as you said on other boards! I myself like the kinda odd respect the regular posters on here have for one another. Although we have all bounced off each other at one point on some thread at some stage
I'm just a happy hippy at heart 0 -
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And you would be right! I'm not talking about smoke and mirriors. But the TCM reference is used for points to help give you the reference to the target for easy conversation and teaching.Colm_OReilly wrote:I wouldn't call a Thai kick a pressure point strike. To me it appears to be blunt trauma, causing an oedema (sp?)
The target is called SP11 if you are to look it up on TCM sites.
I can only say that it really don't matter! Once I know where it is and I aim for it using a conventional block/strike then I am still covering myself from the attack that I was trying to defend in the first place. If I hit (and I usually do just ask MusashiColm_OReilly wrote:When MMAer's/Functional JKDers use the term against a resisting opponent they are essentially saying
"Would that technique produce the same/desired effect if your opponent had intentions of causing you damage/disrupting your game?"
I'm just thinkin on the fly and that explanation above is probably a little off but to paraphrase Tim's question.
"Can you hit that exact pressure point intentionally in a dynamic situation while your opponent is trying to strike you/grapple you and will it produce the desired effect?" ) I can get a result that will open the door for me to make a follow up move like striking to the body or head without the attacker thinking about blocking my strike.
What I mean is this! Think aobut this if you can? You standing in front of a guy thats swinging in monkey blows on you, and you can't see an opening to strike to his head or body. All you can do is block,block,block,block....Colm_OReilly wrote:Can you explain this please? If I'm out of the line of fire my opponent has no attack (at least no immediate attack). Also if your weapons and intent are focused entirely on his arms are you not in danger?
All this does is give the attacker a sense of achivement over you and you will eventually get broken down.
Now when I "block" (depending on the angle of the blow coming to me) I will be striking to sore points I know are on the very arms that are laying into me! What this does is make the attacker go "F*CKwhatwasthatithurtlikesh*t" and I can use that extra dimension to attack with what ever move I feel like from my skill set!
Really when you get into a few of these points, then most of the body is a mine field that can be used to level the odds in your favour.0 -
memphis wrote:Yeah, this place has a merry old way of Modding itself. I think its the fact that we are used to the whole discipline and respect thing from our training, plus the fact that we are all adult, someone steps over the line ya can be sure to be slated.
We regular poster may not have met in person, or know each other personally but we do stick up for each other, and great respect for each others opinions.
Isn't that right folks?
/nudge nudge, wink wink!
Ah! Your a hippy at heart 0 -
Roper wrote:Heh heh, well my belt ain't worth lickin believe me!
Now if they were honest with themselves then they would say that it was the learning of position scenario. If they did not talk about or show this against a hay maker or football goalie kick then they don't pressure test there skill in performing the strikes? I'd have to have been there I guess?Roper wrote:Well, that depends on what you mean by pressure point now doesn't it? If your question is have I tried un-resistive compliant pressure point training, then yes, I have about ten years ago while looking for a MA club to join. (see the JJ example in my post above) It hurt, a bit, I was encouraged not to move while being hit and it worked in that given scenario. And if the Daniel O'Connell statue ever attacks me on my way home one night, it will probably work on him too!
I know what you mean! Let me guess, you thought they only all in the head area and all of them knock you out? All bull*hit and the usual impression that moives and the like give to the subject.Roper wrote:If your question is have I been hit in a pressure point while sparring against a non-cooperative opponent- well previously, I would have said no. But since my forearms and my thigh count, then yes, obviously I have. Though I didn't know it was a pressure point until I read your post above.
God no! It's not "my way" really it's the base reality of Rick's way, and what he base our practice on in PTKD. But I have been researching and studying this stuff for about 8 years or so now (through books, videos, seminars and class training and testing). I just found that they fitted into my TKD so easy and the results were really interesting so kept it up.Roper wrote:I don't see your point? Is it just cos I've never trained in PP your way?
Are you taking about crashing the guard? Then ya, that would require staying power as your relying on his energy sapping from covering your attacks?Roper wrote:And why does cardio have F'all to do with it? Any good fight coach will tell you the arms are a bad target for striking unless you're confident of wearing a guy down, so I'm just surprised to hear the opposite of what every good coach I've worked under says. (I emphasise good cos I've seen bad!)
I'm talking about when they are trying to hit you and you "block" that is really a strike. So I'm only covering myself from the attack really.0 -
Ah you know what I meantTim_Murphy wrote:Yep, thats what I meant, I probably wasn't being clear. Am I being lumped in with the "MMAer's/Functional JKDers" now?! Where did it all go wrong for me??!! :eek:
And well you should be! I've seen some suspect demo vids on the net! So the best way is to see it and feel it (is'int that right MusashiTim_Murphy wrote:Paul,
I'm not saying the stuff doesn't work, I really have no idea, I'd just be skeptical about it until I saw it being pulled off for real. ) 0 -
I think I've replied to most of your comments guys? (Maybe not have answered them fully, but in as best a way as I can on the net?)
But here are the 2 links to the the pics of the sems. See if you can spot me
Rick Clark Sem 12/04/05
Rick Clark Sem 13/04/050 -
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Yes you can! What ever delivery systems you are already using can slip in these targets. But it don't have to be me striking all the time sometimes just making slight adjustments to a crouch and cover guard and hit a target point using the force of the attackers attack.columok wrote:Paul,
Youre basically saying that you integrate the forearm striking into the forearm blocks employed against punches? Correct?
I know that uke can be a soft target and many uke are nearly in the grave by the time sensei goes to move on themcolumok wrote:I know that a forearm block (e.g. age uke, ge-dan barai etc.) can be used against a slow punch but I dont believe that this style of blocking can be used against vollies or flurries of punches. The proof is in the "trying it against a boxer, ouch now my face is sour" pudding! thoughts? I hav'int tried it against a boxer? (Well not an active training one! Cause I have a student that trained in boxing most of his youth with me now) But I don't see why not? There human to you know!
You are talking about the way TMA normally block. This is a format that was developed for kids and college students so that they would'int really hurt themselves and could practice in the dojo for long periods and not have it affect there study due to arm/hand shaking (an old training buddy would'int do step sparring with me anymore because he could'int type in work the next day after training with me, and he would try to move faster and play around with his angles. But it made no difference). In any case I don't even use strikes of blocks that look like TMA ones now. As I know some basic boxing punches, openhand strikes and kicks that have been drilled into me through years of TKD freesparring training that just seem to flow out of me without thinking if I have ever been attacked. Even though I also know a few locks and throws. But all strikes are powered by body motion I have learnt from training over time. No big deal about it, because we don't over stress the pressure point as being the technique, but something thats worked into a motion that you would more than not doing anyway?
If you see a seminar with anyone happening around your area go to it! If you want 0 -
Some great questions here Colm
Indeed! I believe in economy of motion. As I'm trying to cover myself from and attack then I will aim for a target that might have presented itself as for me this the closer body part to me than the torso or head at that time. So I am gettiing in my strike before them! Giving them a dead arm or quick shock will help me get through to the body.Colm_OReilly wrote:Paul,
My understanding from this is you're trying to hurt the guys arm (give him a dead arm for want of a better term) while blocking, so that you're blocks are counter-offensive rather than just purely defensive?
I know what you mean! It takes practice, and there are many time a group of point in one area that you don't have to be to spot on. The fact that your going full on will let you to come pretty close and get the result due to impact. But I don't always hit the point I'm going for. But as it's not the end of the movement I may have had in my head that don't matter either. If they do get hit it can stop and attack altogether, and thats fine by me.Colm_OReilly wrote:When people are punching me with flurries I understand the panic reflex, how is one meant to target a small moving target on their forearm in this scenario?
Thats the whole reason for any of them. Yes some knock out, and there is one on the upper arm that can drop you with watery eyes if hit spot on. But again they are back ups to your defence with should be able to handle the attack in the first place. It's just easier if they land.Colm_OReilly wrote:Is the purpose of pressure points (in the arm at least) just to weaken your opponents arms?
Funny was'int itColm_OReilly wrote:Hey does anyone have a link to that Fox report on Pressure Point strikes. I'd like to get Paul's view on it. I've seen him on Ripleys' and seen that Fox report loads of times. He seems to be living in a comfort zone of uke's that will go out if he farts in there general direction. He also seemed to try and got for a knock out all the time! The thing is that they don't all work on everyone (the amount of those that have pain from all of them is about 70 to 90 % as I've seen quoted) and trying to go straight in and knock out folk with these is stupid and gives the totally wrong impression of the use of pressure points. Yes they have been known to knock folk out but not in the way that these guys uke act! Thats just clowning around! They will kinda make you dizzy for a second or two, leaving an opening for a follow up technique and so on.
Cool!Colm_OReilly wrote:Also, once (about 12 years ago) I went to a pressure point seminar by some guy from Donegal who'd studied under George Dillman, so I've some notion of pressure points. Is this the same as your type of PP?
What did he do?0 -
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Well Rick is coming back this way around november and I'm looking to get a week or so of dates across Ireland if I can? Rick might not be as full on pressure testing at the moment due to his heart. But I am open to invites over the months from here to there from any MA schools that want to see PTKD and the way we strike these points? Or just a way to find and hit that can be worked into any delivery system (this is if Mrs. o'Leary lets me get away and all the rest!). If you look at the seminar section of the PMA site you will see that I am having open nights once a month in my own hall in Cork if anyone can get in? But I will try to get to Dublin if I can work it in if anyone is interested??Roper wrote:You should probably get a seminar going in Dublin Paul,
you'd get a lot of people from these boards alone wanting to have a look.
Nothing at all wrong indeed ! It's the main reason I don't train points expecting to knock out guys cold! Cause I've never been laid out like that by anyone telling me that they are gonna knock me out, and I've also never done it myself in practice on any type of uke situation! But I have given shots of pain and slight dizzyness (close to TKO I guess) but would never claim then to be cold KO's as I've seen some claim? Maybe one day I will find it?? Until then I'm like you on that part of it, but leave the door open to learning it and having it done to me so I can assimilate it! (Borg style!)Roper wrote:I'm a skeptic about this, yes, but there's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of that!Roper wrote:If I saw these things, in motion, in action against a resistant opponent then I would be convinced, but in my experience, they work in contrived environments.Roper wrote:If thats your experience then how can I argue with you!
TaRoper wrote:Congrats on the new arrival by the way What about yours?? (I'm to lazy/busy to PM you and sure eveyone might like to know??)0 -
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That goes away when you have to change your first dirty nappy!Roper wrote:3 weeks of extreme nervousness to go yet.............. :eek: 0 -
Yup! Looks a bit like the guy from the karate kid with hairmemphis wrote:Ok, so who's who in the photo's then? I only know Mr O'Brien, and Amy!
I assume Mr Clark is the guy with the grey hair and glasses?
The short, fat, bald guy with the glasses in some picsmemphis wrote:So paul, who are you man
He's my partner on the 12/04/05.memphis wrote:, and Musashi?
when I'm a bit more organized I'll try and put names on the pics??0 -
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