Krav Maga - Overpriced to hell?

Strange Life

Hey All,

Krav Maga sounds cool but... a 2 day course @ €425 x 30 people = €12750

Does anyone else see something very wrong with this?

columok

Stark figures.

Millionaire

thank god we all live in a free economy.

The only problem I have is that I did not come up with the idea!!!!

Anyway so what, big deal, free country. whats its got to do with you anyway?

I thought Ireland was growing away from that Begrudgery that has held us back for so long....obviously not!

columok

Im sorry making 12750 from a weekend course is excessive. I'd like to hear this justified. I understand that these courses have expenses but this seems exorbitant. You cant justify that by claiming we live in "a free economy". Would you similarily justify post Euro-changeover markups??? "Sure isnt it a free economy? Theyre just making money!"

Ive never come across these kind of prices in MMA, BJJ, Aikido, Karate or Wrestling. Courses ive attended in the former have involved Japanese Shihan, weeklong summer courses, American instructors and the most ive paid has been 100Euro!

425 is taking the piss!

columok

Also as far as I know we dont live in a free economy as we dont live in a free market!

Strange Life

Millionaire wrote:

thank god we all live in a free economy.

The only problem I have is that I did not come up with the idea!!!!

Anyway so what, big deal, free country. whats its got to do with you anyway?

I thought Ireland was growing away from that Begrudgery that has held us back for so long....obviously not!

Millionaire, I've been reading your posts on this forum for quite a while, and something has always been obvious to me.

You are Patrick Cumiskey, aren't you? Or at least personally involved in the Krav Maga course.

Colm_OReilly

Also as far as I know we dont live in a free economy as we dont live in a free market!

I see pe0 has gotten to you

However as far as fees go I don't think anyone should have to justify their profit margin. As long as its perceived value to the customer. All that being said, it doesn't seem like value to me, nor to you, Strange Life.

Strange Life, have you considered taking John Kavanagh up on his offer of a free self-defence private lesson? Check out his thread for further details.

Peace Out,
Colm

Millionaire

No I am not Patrick .

But I do train under him in KM and I pay good money to learn Krav Maga and I feel that I get an excellent return on my investment. I am a business man and do not pay money for bad return.

I also pay good money for private Kickboxing lessons 30 euro a go. which I do from time to time, as I kickboxed for years, and like to keep my skills up.

I also run a company in Dublin and guess what, the way I do that and provide employment, good salary and working conditions for my staff, and pay taxes that keep the country in good order, is by....wait for it....CHARGING FEES FOR WHAT I DO AND PROVIDING EXCELLENT SERVICE TO MY CLIENTS!!!!

Now listen up, this forum is for Martial Arts discussion, and I do not want to go into a basic lesson in Economics and Free Market principles for you.
However what I do recommend is that you read a basic economics text book,
and Strange Life, you can borrow one FREE from any libary in Ireland (paid for by taxes) and get some basic education...and somehow I suspect that FREE will suit the like of you down to the ground!

Strange Life

Millionaire, who are you kidding?

I've spent many years reading hundreds of thousands of posts on the internet and I know when someone is pretending they're someone else.

Stop spamming us with your crap.

Millionaire

No 1. I am not Patrick Cumiskey. I train with him

No 2. That course he charges 425 but 325 on a special offer. It is 30 Hours of training.
So lets do the basic maths ok. 325 divide by 30 hours = 10 euro 84 cents and hour.

So lets say 10 euro an hour. where is the issue with someone paying 10 euro an hour??
I know of kickboxing clubs that charge 10 euro an hour for a class. Yoga classes work out about 15 euro an hour (where I do Yoga).

To be honest I would be ashamed with myself if I was that mean in life if I could not come up with 325 euro (30 hours at 10 euro ) to try a new martial arts experience or learn any new skills in life.

Anyway Strange Life your last post is void of any logical argument. so what if you read 100s of posts on the net..that has got nothing to do with the discussion.

columok

Millionaire,

Thank you my knowledge of economics is good enough to know if there are any restrictions on a market (as there are in this country and globally) then it isnt a free economy. Maybe rather than insult myself and Strange Life take your own advice and read an economics book.

Now listen up, this forum is for Martial Arts discussion, and I do not want to go into a basic lesson in Economics and Free Market principles for you.
However what I do recommend is that you read a basic economics text book,
and Strange Life, you can borrow one FREE from any libary in Ireland (paid for by taxes) and get some basic education...and somehow I suspect that FREE will suit the like of you down to the ground!

Calling both of us uneducated is not only unfounded but abusive. Calling Strange Life cheap is abusive. You talk about your business abilities. Is being abusive to people you disagree with one of these abilities?

Strange Life

Wow, I've never seen someone move onto insulting so quickly.

You're very aggressive for someone who is a so called martial arts expert. Are you sure this is a good thing?

I'm totally convinced you're Patrick Cumiskey. See, I'm not as dumb/a failure as you think I am.

Mods!

columok

I also meant to say:

To be honest I would be ashamed with myself if I was that much of a failure in life if I could not come up with 325 euro (30 hours at 10 euro ) to try a new martial arts experience or learn any new skills in life.To be honest I would be ashamed with myself if I was that much of a failure in life if I could not come up with 325 euro (30 hours at 10 euro ) to try a new martial arts experience or learn any new skills in life.

Thats a little insulting for the many people out there who couldnt afford to pay that kind of money for a course. They are hardly failures!!!

Millionaire

yeah I am aggressive. both in martial arts and in business. I make no apology for that.

Ok stand correct on free market comment. been a while since I did enconomis at university.. shall read up on it! what I mean is that of someone can charge a fee for a good service and people are will to pay...well that is allowed. its free enterprise and a god thing!

I don't mean to be insulting to people. but there is plenty of people on here who insult some of us who do KM, who feel it is good value, etc and people on here seem to be going on and on and on about it.

As I said KM costs 10 euro and hour, private Kickboxing is 30 euro an hour , If you want to pick on something because of the cost...what about the kickboxing???

pma-ire

One simple answer to all this.

If you don't like the prices, and think you won't get anything from it. Then don't go.

dudara

To be honest I would be ashamed with myself if I was that much of a failure in life if I could not come up with 325 euro (30 hours at 10 euro ) to try a new martial arts experience or learn any new skills in life.To be honest I would be ashamed with myself if I was that much of a failure in life if I could not come up with 325 euro (30 hours at 10 euro ) to try a new martial arts experience or learn any new skills in life.

Oh that is rich!! Do you value your studies by the amount of money they cost.

columok

As I said KM costs 10 euro and hour, private Kickboxing is 30 euro an hour , If you want to pick on something because of the cost...what about the kickboxing???

Thats for a private kickboxing class rather than a group KM class.

Ph3n0m

Just to give my 2 cents here I would love to learn Krav Maga, I work for a living, I have to pay rent, etc so how esactly am I meant to afford the full course fee upfront?

Especially with the unpredictive nature of life, where if you try and save for something, you never know what is going to happen to drain you of said funds.

If the course is split over so many hours, why is the fee not payable on a per day basis - similiar to other martial art courses

I have trained for some years when I was younger, and I was never charged more then my initial insurance and a weekly fee which I could well afford.

The idea that anyone could afford the Krav maga course if they really wanted to do it, is laughable, in this day and age, it takes a lot of effort to even raise the smallest amount of money - except if you are loaded which I aint

Millionaire

Yes that is correct, and if you want to pay it to do KM of kboxing u pay it and if u don't want to do it u dont' pay it, and u respect peoples decisions.

yet u are so quick to point fingers, yet past week in these forums, you keep pluggin JKs free class.

I have defend KM cause I feel people have been sniping at KM, Patrick and his clasees without just reason, yet not once on here have I gone and told anyone of sign up to KM.

columok

JK is offering a FREE class. This means that people can make up their own minds and get a private lesson with the best MMA and BJJ coach in Ireland for FREE. This represents value for the consumer.

How exactly have I been pointing fingers? What do you mean by this? Please explain this to my uneducated ears!

Millionaire

Plug! Plug! ; - )

Yes it is good value, and if you like it you sign up. and that is great too. In sales this is refered to as the "puppy dog" close.

Basically its a promotional offer you are promotiong, where after the free class, you can sign up the contract to join full time. (refer to thread my 1st bjj class).

Thats good business to give to prospect a taste of the goods in the hope that they will sign up.

Re KM pulling 12K for a weekend or whatver, Thats not excessive, the aim of business is to offer good service and make a profit. The more the merrier, if someone can make 100K from a weekend course good for them, I want to know, maybe they can show me something, that will help me reach my financial goals this year.

Re not being able to afford the price... I am of the understanding that one can pay in installments. though it is not a drop in class, each week builds on the week before.

AARRRGH

Will someone please ban this guy?! I didn't think advertising was allowed in this forum?

As someone said earlier it is very obvious this guy (and his other usernames) is the owner of the Krav Maga course.

Millionaire

No as I said earlier I do not run KM in Ireland. I am a paying student doing advanced training.

Perhaps the site admin can verify through IP addresses logged, who is posting from where?

I am using my posts to back up my arguments and points I make or to counter arguments by others on here.

But hey Dublin Dude on another topic maybe you can give me a shout on the 100 euro Brown Thomas Vochers the YOU were trying to sell on the boards for 75 euro. Fell off the back of a bus did they? just noticed in your posting history

AARRRGH

Millionaire wrote:

But hey Dublin Dude on another topic maybe you can give me a shout on the 100 euro Brown Thomas Vochers the YOU were trying to sell on the boards for 75 euro. Fell off the back of a bus did they?

WTF?

You have got to be the saddest, dumbest fool I've ever seen on boards.ie.

I really pity you.

Colm_OReilly

Play Nice folks or I'll delete this thread.

As for advertising, I see absolutely nothing wrong with promoting yourself through these boards.

Personal attacks are to avoided however. And in the words of Paul Teutel, "Don't make me show you my size 12s!"

Now I don't like my voice like this, so pipe down, or there'll be no Playstation for anyone tonight!

Colm

Roper

You think the price is too much?
Go elsewhere where its cheaper. Thats what you'd do with Ryanair vs. Aerlingus, Superquinn vs. Tesco or any other choice you'd make as a customer in Ireland or anyone else.
The Krav Maga debate was interesting insofar as it was about training styles/habits/mindsets.
Its not like your Road Tax here people, there are people who train and enjoy it, feel its worth the money, and there are people who' have trained and felt it wasn't. If you're interested, read back on the testimonials from both sides and see which you believe, then decide.

Im2Lazy

Hi Guys,

What's with all the asumption that Millionaire is Patrick just cos he sees the KM course as value for money and promotes it.

How is that any different from any of the MMA guys mentioning JK's generous offer of free training (which I'm going to take him up on).

SBG does seem like good value as it's €60 per month and you can go to as many classes as you want, but how many classes does the average member actually attend probably 1 or 2 a week probably which would be €15/€7.50 per hour. Ideally we all would like to attend more but everyone has obligations that they can't escape. So €10per hour isn't that much, is the only problem people seem to have is that it all has to be paid upfront ?
This is true Patrick generally would like to be paid upfront but my friend was doing the course with me and he didn't have the full fee upfront and Patrick let him it pay him in a few installments so he can be flexible if asked.

Also guys saying Millionaire is Patrick read some of his other posts he's not Patrick he's a kick boxing nut he even has a kick boxing license plate (if I've guessed right) on his car. Patrick's background is more in Kenpo, but I have figured out who he is and I also know why he took up yoga, cos there was a Ballet dancer on my course who could do a complete splits, which you got jealous of .

I'll see you on Tuesday if you're going "G" , take care.

EPO_MAN

Sounds like fun this krav maga weekend. But for that price...you can ask my b*****ks!
I consider myself well off. Good professional job. well educated enough to realise that €425 for a weekend is tosh....a rip off.
Though we are free to choose and I'll choose not to attend.
I do gung fu and jujutsu and no seminar would ever cost that - mainly cos there is a love of the art involved not a love of the green (€200) or purple(€500).

So millionaire get off your high horse and explain to me how you can run a company successfully when you obvisously believe that the more expensive the commodity the better the product.

logic1

columok wrote:

Ive never come across these kind of prices in MMA, BJJ, Aikido, Karate or Wrestling. Courses ive attended in the former have involved Japanese Shihan, weeklong summer courses, American instructors and the most ive paid has been 100Euro!

425 is taking the piss!

You can't kill someone with a single finger. I think I've made my point.

.logic.

Coupe

You're right guys KM is way too expensive! You shouldn't go near it! Keep doing what you enjoy and what you believe to be value for money. After all money is the barometer of all things good.... The more you pay the less likely things are to be of value...

logic1

Coupe wrote:

You're right guys KM is way too expensive! You shouldn't go near it! Keep doing what you enjoy and what you believe to be value for money. After all money is the barometer of all things good.... The more you pay the less likely things are to be of value...

Nobody has said that money is a direct proportional indicator of value or otherwise. The question has simply been put forward why is KM so expensive in direct comparison with courses in all other arts which seem to be reasonably close to each other in cost except for some ridiculous example given of a 1 to 1 private kick boxing class.

And so far it seems every KM student on the board has posted with a childish, resentful and sulky attitude vehemmently defending their sport by attacking everything and every one else.

Nice example guys, I'm sure it'll have people flocking to spend their money with ye.

.logic.

pma-ire

Please comment...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2341729#post2341729

Musashi

Logic,
Can you tell the class the last time you used TMA or any martial training to defend your self?
Or has your body building and being an aggressive and large male of the species been of more use?
Current situation not withstanding,could you see either Krav Maga or SBG style MMA being of any use?
What about the TKD and full contact boxing you had in your younger years?
Would Dave or Andy shiver if told they faced a Thai Boxer,Grappler or TKD guy? Or will they just rip a lad a new bum hole??
Is it really all down to how physical you are and the raw force you can muster?
Sorry to put you on the spot but you do have the practical application down here!

Millionaire

I hear that the KM course is going up to 899 euro (you get a free Tshirt and lunch is included of burger chips and baked beans ) imagine 899 x 30 = 26970

WOW that is brilliant money! He might even buy you a pint after the course too.

Hey Lazy, great guess , It is G here.

Yeah never got the full splits yet...nor the ballet danced! ha ha

as for EPO , if your going for heart surgery what you gonna do, get the cheapest doc to do the job or get the top guy who charges the top fees.(law of supply and demand)

my business is not in the commidity area (price driven). top service = top fees. Thats how biz works my friend!

Freedom of choice, I am free to do what I want and people are free to do what they want! Great isn't!

logic1

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Play Nice folks or I'll delete this thread.

Just a note Colm proper etiquette is to lock the thread and move it to the recycle bin. It's more useful to leave a record of threads just incase it needs to be referenced in future.

Musashi wrote:

Can you tell the class the last time you used TMA or any martial training to defend your self?
Or has your body building and being an aggressive and large male of the species been of more use?

I've never been in a situation that lasted long enough to use any specific techniques learnt through TMA to defend myself. Being large has usually kept me out of any trouble and that which it didn't was over quickly.

Current situation not withstanding,could you see either Krav Maga or SBG style MMA being of any use?

I'm sure they have their uses but I really think alot of the discussions regarding both KM and MMA are their usefulness or otherwise on the street. It really leaves me wondering how much real street time the people asking those questions have faced.

The problem with a street altercation is if either party have any training at all it's usually over in seconds. Literally. I've very unfortunately been in a few street situations the longest one lasted 20 seconds max. I'm sure training and whatever caused me to react in the correct manner, or incorrect according the the law but I still walked away where otherwise I might not have.

People are judging whether any given system is good for the street based on the specific techniques you get taught, the reality is any art or sport that teaches you to react quickly and try to avoid danger is a street system. You can go through every theoretical combination of multiple attackers or weapons or this and that but it remains that any street situation is 99% luck and 1% skill.

Any art will give you an edge over someone that has none. And two people that are well trained only means twice the amount of people that'll be checking into casualty.

What about the TKD and full contact boxing you had in your younger years?

The luxury with TMA and even boxing is that it's governed by rules and regulations. You do your 3 minutes or whatever, sit down have a drink and wipe your face ready for round two. The problem with the street is the not knowing if you're going to walk away at all, the fear of being seriously injured spurs people on to do things they would never otherwise consider. It really is a pressure cooker situation which will show you your true character, which often times will leave you with a sour taste in your mouth.

I really have little or no time for street situation discussions, it is a very real problem but I now try to not put myself into those situations. I'll skip the chipper after the pub and just go home, I no longer bother with night clubs, or even pubbing that much. I'll try to defuse a situation instead of rushing in with aggro and an attitude. All of these things should be looked at before you look at your art to see if it's "ready for the street" and I certainly wouldn't pay for a 30 hour class or whatever in "KM street tactics".

This guy should be handing out a leaflet before his classes about how to avoid confrontation, situational awareness, trigger factors - all of these things come before fighting which in all cases regardless of whether you're in the right or not should be seen as an extreme last resort.

Trust me no one here wants to deal with the aftermath of a 20 second street fight in which someone gets seriously hurt. That 20 seconds will dominate the next year of your life.

This is totally off topic with regards to how much KM classes cost but I think the very premise of a KM class being sold as the ultimate street defense system without giving due regard to every possible means of situation diffusal is simply encouraging people to fight first and think later.

.logic.

paddyc

worse than the price of the KM course is that you pay €30 for a private lesson in KB Man they should be offering these lessons with a packet o corn flakes...

kickboxing ahhhh...


sits back an waits for massive row to start

columok

Paddy,

LMAO

Always the diplomat!

Millionaire

the ol private lessons are great for speedning ya along.

Actually Paddy, I would mind in the not too distance future, getting a few private lessons in thai, I think a few lessons would help me get up to speed in it?

Clive

People start businesses to make money. You try to maximise profits by increasing prices until the drop off in customers makes it uneconomical.

Paying €5.50 for a pint is madness, but people are willing to do it so they can keep the prices at that level.

Why does anyone care how much money someone else is making? I've been to seminars that had over 50 people at €50 a head. Rickson Gracie charges over $1000 for a private lesson. Who cares?

If someone can make money doing something they love, then fair play to them.

If they can make a lot of money, then even better!

tomsie100

hello
I think why the expensive prices are getting up people noses.
Is because most martial arts trainers, train people so cheapely.
My kickboxing instructor charges 15 euro for 8 training sesions 2 a week.
And i respect him for it that barely covers the charge for the hall.
I also know many boxing club barely cost anything to go to.

I think we need more choice in the market See my thread self defense courses.
And get in some good instructors plenty in england.
When other people start teaching i can see the prices come down.

blondie83

Yeah thats it in a nutshell - lack of competition is the big problem. Take Aerlingus for example: Before Ryanair came onto the market they were free to, and regularly did charge very high prices for there flights. Then Ryanair came into the scene, and Aer Lingus were forced to drop their prices to try to win back their customers. The fact that Patrick Cumisky is the only Krav Maga instructor in Ireland means he can set whatever fees he likes.

Personally I think if anyone is willing to pay that much money, then they deserve to lose it! A quick scan of the UK Krav Maga websites (from the official instructors main page) shows that 2 day intensive training courses average out at about €110. Seriously like, just get a Ryanair flight over and stay in a B&B and you still sace about €150. Ah rip-off Ireland at its best!

pma-ire

tomsie100 wrote:

I think we need more choice in the market See my thread self defense courses.
And get in some good instructors plenty in england.
When other people start teaching i can see the prices come down.

You don't think there's enough MA instructor's in Ireland?

Where do you live?

pma-ire

blondie83 wrote:

Yeah thats it in a nutshell - lack of competition is the big problem. Take Aerlingus for example: Before Ryanair came onto the market they were free to, and regularly did charge very high prices for there flights. Then Ryanair came into the scene, and Aer Lingus were forced to drop their prices to try to win back their customers. The fact that Patrick Cumisky is the only Krav Maga instructor in Ireland means he can set whatever fees he likes.

Personally I think if anyone is willing to pay that much money, then they deserve to lose it! A quick scan of the UK Krav Maga websites (from the official instructors main page) shows that 2 day intensive training courses average out at about €110. Seriously like, just get a Ryanair flight over and stay in a B&B and you still sace about €150. Ah rip-off Ireland at its best!

Great work girl

That's it in a nutshell

EPO_MAN

""as for EPO , if your going for heart surgery what you gonna do, get the cheapest doc to do the job or get the top guy who charges the top fees.(law of supply and demand)

my business is not in the commidity area (price driven). top service = top fees. Thats how biz works my friend!""

Quote from Millionaire


Eh - If I needed Heart Surgery I would go to Doctor Hibbard regardless of the price Doctor Nick charges.
Good service <> price.

I work in the financial service industry and when dealing with contractors Top Rates haven't guaranteed my dept top contractors.

In fact I remember when I paid high taxes and that didn't get me efficient or effective government......so what exactly are you saying???

paddyc

Millionaire

no probs about thai lessons I am sure there be room for you, just give us a shout closer to the time, thanks

paddy

Roper

Any chance of fitting another body in there? Been thinking about getting a bit of Thai under my belt too. Hopefully soon.
Whats the story, times price etc.?

paddyc

Roper

hows things, class times etc etc are on www.bridgestonemuaythai.com although the site is down for a few days, the hosters fault they are trying to fix it at the mo.

basically mon-thur 7-8.15 for beginners €6 a pop.

privates are €30 for about the same length of time and can just be done when the gyms no being used and a mutual time suits.

any more questions fire away till the site is up and running

thanks paddy

Millionaire

yes privates would be the way to go, especially if you have a martial arts experience.

I will be in contact in a month or so.I am working on my training goals and still am trying to get all scheduled for 2005.

actually my cousin has been doing Thai up in Drogheda for over a year and I was amazed at the skills he developed. and his conditioning.

Roper

On the privates Paddy, is that just one on one or can you get a few lads together for that? The class times suit to be honest I'm just keeping the options open.
Also is there any morning sessions? (Shiftworker!)

EPO_MAN

do this booking privates IN PRIVATE guys!!!
This thread is about abusing Millionaire and Krav Maga.

paddyc

millionaire

thats sweet just drop us a line when you sorted and we have a look see and see what we can do..


Roper

you can of course get a few lads together and we have a lash at it all. NOt to many though as then it just like a class and you start to miss out on proper technique... and sure thats the reasons for privates..

I do a brave few at the minute, but during the summer I off for 3 months and so can pretty much train any time suits ya morning, noon or indeed night..

Have a thing and if you interested drop me a line and we hook up

thanks paddy