Have you all lost your marbles??

Villain

This is the question posed by Brendan O’Connor on the front page of the Sunday Independent today on the back of the poll published in the Irish Times yesterday that was compiled by ‘tns mrbi’. 62% of people said that the British and Irish governments should continue to negotiate with Sinn Fein for a deal in the north, with only 26% of people saying that negotiations should be suspended. While only 47% of people believe that the IRA were responsible for the Northern Bank Robbery, and in Connacht-Ulster this drops to 36%.

So despite all the statements from Government, including Minister McDowell it would appear the majority of Irish people believe that Sinn Fein should be included in any negotiations. Another poll by the Irish Times during the week stated that support for Sinn Fein had only fallen 1% down to 11%, and while Gerry Adams rating has fallen 9% to 46%, it would appear Sinn Fein’s support remains strong, a lot stronger than that of Mr McDowell’s party! Mr O’Connor has wrote about Sinn Fein in his column for at least the last six weeks and what does he have to say about the poll carried out, “I wouldn’t be taking that poll too seriously at all”. MRBI polls have been accepted before by The Independent, but I guess when you realise that the majority of people don’t agree with you, all is left for you do is to discard the poll and not take it seriously.

So as I said here after the local elections you keep bashing and we’ll keep growing, because despite what McDowell and Bertie say Sinn Fein’s support will continue to grow, and I wonder if after next the general election if Sinn Fein holds the balance in power will Ahern and McDowell have the same position on Sinn Fein, because it appears that their bashing has done very little damage.

The full report on the poll can be found @ http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0122/4157122135HM1LEAD.html

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ReefBreak

Fortunately for democracy in Ireland, it appears that Sinn Féin's support has hit a ceiling, with their ratings for the last year and a half appearing to have stalled at the 10-11% mark. There is a proportion of idiots in Ireland that will still vote for a party that believes that murdering a mother of 10 children is not a crime. The rest of the country - the normal people - don't seem to be buying the Shinner fascist propaganda.

mike65

I was watching The Political Party on TV3 (sorry!) and this came up as Willie O'Dea and some Dublin Shinner did battle. O'Dea had a techincal KO over the other guy who just did'nt seem to realise that the ground is shifting under the Provos feet. While the Republicans can try to convince themselves this is a passing storm I feel that the tide has turned. PPl have just had enough shifting and shiftyness regarding criminal activity and what defines a crime.

Mike.

Raskolnikov

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

In fairness, McLaughlin did also remark at the same occasion that the murder was "wrong". I suppose that McLaughlin would take the view that it was a justified "execution" give that the IRA were at war at the time and she was an informer. I'm not claiming that it justifies the action that the IRA took just filling in the gaps.

billy the squid

If this really was a war, to leave ten children with out a mother would be a war crime. what evidence is there that she she was an informer?

Mitchell McGloughlan should hang his haid in shame and reflect on what he said this week on television about that murder.

oh and sinn fein will never become very big. why, because the more popular and mainstream the party becomes, the more likely they are to have a split. knocking them back to square one again.

Capt'n Midnight

Also in that paper was a piece about how the alabi tape supposedly dated 2001 for the columbia 3 had a poster dated 1997 in the background..

and another article suggested that the bank raid was to show they still had muscle but a bombing was ruled out 'cos that would really have backfired.

as for SF having a split, have a look at the history of irish parties, most split off from the original pre independance SF ... maybe that's what the bank raid was for, remember the sallins train job that some claim funded the workers party.

FTA69

Sallins was blamed on the INLA actually, an IRSP member called Nicky Kelly was tortured into signing a confession to that effect by the Guards.

Anyway,
I really do think that the heat surrounding Sinn Féin will pass just like it always does. Our core support involves working class in deprived areas and Republicans around the border areas. Middle class opposition to CPAD and COCAD didn't stop people in those areas supporting them, ditto for Republican supporters in general. There will always be a core vote for Sinn Féin around the 10-12% mark.

I genuinely think that our support will continue to increase, Sinn Féin are set to clean up in the next general election and as we all know, momentum breeds more momentum.

Regards Jene McConville, it was interesting to hear McDowell quote Ed Moloney's book today on the radio to try and prove Adams is a member of the IRA Army Council, ironic really considering that same book alledges McConville was an informer. Personally I do not think her killing was wrong, she was an informer for the British Army and the punishment for that treachoury has been consistent since 1916. What happened afterwards however (her dissapearance) was a war crime, there can be no justification for that whatsoever.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

Personally I do not think her killing was wrong, she was an informer for the British Army and the punishment for that treachoury has been consistent since 1916.

That's the second time you've justified murder in this forum.

FTA69

If by "murder" you mean the killing of those during the process of a war then yes I have, and I have done it far more often than "twice". You'll see that if you look at any thread regarding the IRA campaign that I have posted on.

Hairy Homer

Jean McConville is Sinn Fein's 'Tut Humph' murder of the Troubles. If you're talking to an interested Brit or anti-shinner and the subject of Bloody Sunday or Pat Finucane comes up they'll often Tut and Humph and say 'Yeah OK. Nobody's trying to justify that but come on. That's one incident in 30 years and 3,000 deaths. What about all the ones we suffered?'

For the Shinners, mentioning Jean McConville has a similar effect. Or you could mention Patsy Gillespie, a caterer for the army in Derry who was captured, tied into his own van into which a bomb had been placed and forced to drive into a checkpoint where it was detonated, killing him and several soldiers.

At least the Hamas suicide bombers are volunteers.

Or the La Mon house bombing, when the attendance at a dog-lover's society supper were incinerated.

Tut Humph. 'Aye, but what about Pat Finucane? He was a human rights' lawyer, after all. They shouldn't be shooting people like that. Sure wasn't he only a civilian?'


As for the original post, I guess that bloated git O'Connor is just pissed at the fact that despite the concerted effort of the entire 'Thought leadership' team of the Sindo ie Harris, O'Hanlon, Cruise O'Brien et al to convince their (large) readership that supporting the peace process is to be a fellow traveller of murderous terrorists and a dupe in their grand design to dominate the country, most people are capable of making up their own minds and behaving accordingly....and differently.

I'm no supporter of Sinn Fein and never have been. But you don't have to be a conspiracy theory nut to be highly suspicious of the automatic apportioning of blame without a scrap of accompanying evidence of the Northern Bank raid to the IRA. Elections are looming, north and south. Their strength is feared. Time for a propaganda blitz on an issue where we can cite 'intelligence sources'

It all sounds a bit too WMD-like to me. Let's hope that doesn't blow up in the main parties' faces.

And as a further aside. Is it just me or is Paul Murphy a dead ringer for Mel Brooks?

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

What happened afterwards however (her dissapearance) was a war crime, there can be no justification for that whatsoever.

I take it then that you will use your involvement in the "movement", to advocate the naming of these vermin, and their handing over to the appropriate authorities, to be dealt with under International Law.

jbkenn

FTA69

Yeah I'll get right on that jb...

But you might want to consider the fact that the war is long over, we are not calling for the war criminals of Bloody Sunday to be imprisoned, in fact we negotitated for the realease of hundreds of Loyalist war criminals. If we go down that road there will be no peace process to even argue about on this forum.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

Yeah I'll get right on that jb...

But you might want to consider the fact that the war is long over, we are not calling for the war criminals of Bloody Sunday to be imprisoned, in fact we negotitated for the realease of hundreds of Loyalist war criminals. If we go down that road there will be no peace process to even argue about on this forum.

her family will find your sarcasm amusing

i take it by your statement that you do know who perpatrated this murder then.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Yeah I'll get right on that jb...

Did'nt think so.

jbkenn

billy the squid

while we are on the subject of war crimes (for those that believe this is actually a war ) arent there people from germany rotting in joil because of war crimes. were they not hunted down and convicted of their war crimes decades after the war ended.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

Regards Jene McConville, it was interesting to hear McDowell quote Ed Moloney's book today on the radio to try and prove Adams is a member of the IRA Army Council, ironic really considering that same book alledges McConville was an informer. Personally I do not think her killing was wrong, she was an informer for the British Army and the punishment for that treachoury has been consistent since 1916. What happened afterwards however (her dissapearance) was a war crime, there can be no justification for that whatsoever.

Just as point of fact Moloney was almost certainly wrong about McConville.

In his book it alleges that McConville was in possession of a radio transmitter, when in fact there is no record of the British army issuing radio transmitters to its agents.

If McConville had such a device this would have made her unique.

It is also worth noting that the family herself vehemently deny the allegations that she was an agent.

Her husband had recently died, and she was an ill and depressed woman struggling to bring up 10 children alone.

According to her children she simply wasn't in a fit state to do what she was alleged to have done.

Her crime was to have come to the aid of a dying British soldier, and the radio story one the Provos more transparent lies.

Sand

Actually the most depressing fact out of that survey and article was that 39% believe Sinn Fein would be acceptable in a coalition government tommorrow, and yet 19% believe that the IRA didnt do the NIB bank robbery - which means at least 20% of that 39% are comftable with an organisation they suspect to be bank robbers and kidnappers to be in government! And the US is supposed to be the country with the moronic voters?

McIntyres view that these crises are engineered by SF/IRA and co to perpetuate the peace process arent disproven by the poll results. Gerrys personal polls have been hurt slightly but the support for the armalite and ballot box party remain solid. No publicity is bad publicity.

If by "murder" you mean the killing of those during the process of a war then yes I have, and I have done it far more often than "twice". You'll see that if you look at any thread regarding the IRA campaign that I have posted on.

There are two scenarios

A) McConville was abducted, tortured and murdered by a bunch of terrorists. She was then buried in an unmarked grave, with so little care as that her killers couldnt be arsed remembering where. They then refused for decades to either confirm her murder or the location of her body to her family to at least grant them some closure. This is not merely "wrong". This is a crime.

McConville was (allegedly) a spy for a participant in a war. She was targeted and killed under the international norms for a war. This is incorrect. She was a mother and the GC specifically protects mothers from death sentences, even ones declared by legitimate courts - which a jumped up IRA gang are not. Again, this killing is not merely "wrong". This is a crime.

A is the correct version. B is the IRA fanboy version. Regardless of viewpoint her murder was a crime.

The IRA fanboys cant have it both ways. They cant complain about the injustices in the UK when they are seemingly brainwashed into being unable to accept the murder of McConville as being a crime. Theyre not fit for government until they accept the McConville killing a crime. One wonders how theyre going to fight crime when in government when they cant even recognise it?

ReefBreak

FTA69 wrote:

Personally I do not think her killing was wrong, she was an informer for the British Army and the punishment for that treachoury has been consistent since 1916. What happened afterwards however (her dissapearance) was a war crime, there can be no justification for that whatsoever.

This is one of the most disgusting comments I've ever read on boards.ie. Would you say the same about Birmingham, Enniskillen or even Omagh? I fully believe that with a comment like that you should be ashamed to call yourself Irish.

ReefBreak

It's interesting to note that FTA69's age is 18. He wouldn't remember the scores of IRA atrocities, and has probably bought into the glorification of them by Sinn Féin/IRA.

therecklessone

Sand wrote:

A is the correct version. B is the IRA fanboy version. Regardless of viewpoint her murder was a crime.

Jaysus, something must be up, I find myself agreeing with Sand!

Fintan O'Toole's article midweek makes for some good reading

With a hypocrisy that would be breathtaking had it not become so familiar, Sinn Féin regularly supports calls for these international laws to be enforced - so long as the crimes in question happened elsewhere. At the time when there were attempts to prosecute the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet in the UK and Spain, for example, An Phoblacht quoted with approval Virginia Díaz, a member of the Spanish prosecution team against Pinochet: "One of the consequences of the Pinochet case has been the creation of an International Criminal Court to take on cases of crimes against humanity. 'But what is more important' , highlights Virginia, 'is the final confirmation that crimes against humanity are imprescriptible and that human rights are inviolable. There is no possible immunity to cover those responsible for those crimes'."

Except, of course, the immunity of those inoculated against guilt by their own tender sense of honour.

the_syco

I find it funny that the goverments think they can achieve peace in the north, with the IRA still running around.

Exclude SF, and you have the SDLP (who have no gang behind them), and the loylist parties (who have no "official" ties to gangs, but still speak for them).

I hope that SF never get into power, as they are nothing more than wannabe commie's, having read their 40% corporate tax policies, etc. If SF got into power, we'd lose alot of jobs, very quickly.

So, if the SDLP, and the DUP/UDP/Right Hand Defenders sign up for a truce, so what? Without the SF/IRA, the peace is meaningless.

=-=

Oh, found it funny that Fat B*stard Paisley wouldn't accept photo's, De Chastline, etc, proof of IRA ceasefire, but when the RUC man says it was the IRA who robbed the bank (even before the "evidence" was shown to him), he accepted that it was the IRA's fault. And then everyone jumped onto the bandwagon.

I ain't saying that the IRA had no link to the robbery. That sort of planning needs brains. May not have been a senctioned fund-raising idea by the council, but I dare say that some of the guys helped a bit, for a share of the loot.

=-=

Oh, and as for the killings, the disappearings, etc, I wonder would the British goverment ever come clean for all the sh|te they conspired with the loylists...? Somehow I doubt it. So why should the IRA come clean over what it has done?

Cos its "morally right"? Don't give me that BS. It was wrong, by both sides, but **** happens. So neither side accepted it as a war, but both sides went by the unwritten rules of war, more or less.

AmenToThat

ReefBreak wrote:

This is one of the most disgusting comments I've ever read on boards.ie. Would you say the same about Birmingham, Enniskillen or even Omagh? I fully believe that with a comment like that you should be ashamed to call yourself Irish.

She was seen as a traitor and dealt with accordingly....to me it was a horrific act but none the less war itself is horrific, tis the nature of the beast Im afraid.

During the second world war hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted in a night of pure hell in earth in Dresden and the bombings of Nagasaki and Horishima are still claiming lives to this very day!
Tha Allies knew.........or at least had a very good idea about what was going on in the concentration camps for a good year before those camps were eventually liberated, this according to a documentary screened at the weekend.

Yet this is seen as a war of great honour for the Allied forces and the nations who contributed troops, Im not saying that it shouldnt be honoured Im just saying that horrific acts are committed in all wars and this 'outpouring' over Jean McConville smacks of oportunism to me.
Indeed the family stated this week that they wished that people (McDowell)would stop using the family name to score political points and leave them in peace.

As horrible as it was it is a side issue and smells of desperation from the 'right/independent reading' of Irish politics to me.
SF are not going to go away and the veiws in this poll suggest that a large number of the population of this country dont want them to.

If that makes this section of the population 'stupid' then so be it I say.
It seems to me that the way the Irish people accepted unemployment, the abuses of the catholic church and the corruption of FF(especially in the 70s and 80s when this country really was struggling), shows that intelligence levels havnt just suddenly dropped overnight............thats assuming of course that you agree that a large section of the population is indeed stupid.

For the record every although I dont consider it a criminal act I, as well as just about every 'republican minded' member of this board who has posted has stated that they believe this act was gruesome and wrong...........isnt this a step forward?
I hope you can accept this as there is not a snowballs chance of the republican leadership deeming it to be a criminal act so you can either accept this and move on or just sit and become even more bitterly entrenched in your views................the very thing you scorn Republicans for btw.

daveirl

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A Dub in Glasgo

A British Army unit is ambushed by the IRA and a number of soldiers are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans are quick to say murder and we must find them. If the IRA are caught, they will face prosecution.

An IRA unit is ambushed by the British Army and a number of the IRA men are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans cheer and say well done, we got some of them. The BA soldiers will be given honours and some will be promoted. They will not face prosecution.

I have no problems with both attacks as it is a conflict. Nobody should be charged with murder but that is not what happens which is the reason republicans are highlighting the hypocrisy of those who cheer killings on the one hand and on the other hand deplore and are sickened by killings. Hyprocisy.

As for killing civilians, all parties to any conflict who recklessly kills civilians in a conflict should be held accountable. A lot of people here seem to think only one side should be held accountable, that is the reason why the victims of the state do not feel they are getting justice.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

The IRA killing of civilians is only argued by some to be acceptable because there was a 'war' or conflict going on and that appears to be the rationale behind other civilian deaths. Do you think the British Army and RUC should be brought to justice for killing civilians? If not, where do you draw the line on what is acceptable? What about civilians being killed in other conflicts? Nagasaki? Dresden? Iraq? Should the perpertrators be brought to justice as well?

Those killings of civilians that you mention were wrong and not acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong but the perpertrators would have been brought to justice if they caught them and had evidence. Was that correct and should it apply to the otherside as well? Yes and yes. what do you think?

Nuttzz

Whats really needed for the north is a truth & reconciliation commission like the one that was run in South Africa after the fall of the apartheid government.

http://www.facts.com/icof/south.htm

Villain

FTA69 wrote:

Personally I do not think her killing was wrong, she was an informer for the British Army and the punishment for that treachoury has been consistent since 1916. What happened afterwards however (her dissapearance) was a war crime, there can be no justification for that whatsoever.

I would just like to make it clear, that is the view of FTA69, and not the view of Sinn Fein, the killing of Jean McConville was WRONG, very wrong.

FTA69 I think your support for Sinn Fein is embarrassing, I want people to know that FTA69 is not a typical supporter

therecklessone

irish1 wrote:

I would just like to make it clear, that is the view of FTA69, and not the view of Sinn Fein, the killing of Jean McConville was WRONG, very wrong, but not a crime.

Missed a bit, I added it in for you.

ionapaul

ReefBreak wrote:

Fortunately for democracy in Ireland, it appears that Sinn Féin's support has hit a ceiling, with their ratings for the last year and a half appearing to have stalled at the 10-11% mark. There is a proportion of idiots in Ireland that will still vote for a party that believes that murdering a mother of 10 children is not a crime. The rest of the country - the normal people - don't seem to be buying the Shinner fascist propaganda.

I could see Sinn Fein's support rising to between 20%-30% in certain circumstances. Never underestimate the capacity of the voters to be hoodwinked, fooled, lied to and their happiness to go along with it. The voting publics happiness to blind themselves to harsh realities is even greater - witness Bush's 2nd term victory (those stupid Americans, right? lol) and Sinn Fein's growing support. Lincoln, as usual, was right: 'You can fool all of the people some of the time.'

As already mentioned, their core support (urban, working-class males) will remain constant, but in the short-term clever PR, the mood of the country and any and all sorts of things can account for greater or lesser numbers of voters throwing their lot in with the bearded mafia!

A Dub in Glasgo

ionapaul wrote:

Never underestimate the capacity of the voters to be hoodwinked, fooled, lied to and their happiness to go along with it. The voting publics happiness to blind themselves to harsh realities is even greater.....

Lincoln, as usual, was right: 'You can fool all of the people some of the time.'

Yep, just look at the support Lawlor, Haughey, Burke and Lowry had from the masses as well

ionapaul

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yep, just look at the support Lawlor, Haughey, Burke and Lowry had from the masses as well

I agree 100%. The funny thing is hearing the same idiots laugh at Bush and the 'dumb' Americans...or march on Shannon in indignation.

BuffyBot

A British Army unit is ambushed by the IRA and a number of soldiers are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans are quick to say murder and we must find them. If the IRA are caught, they will face prosecution.

Fair enough, they face prosecution under the law of the land they live in.

An IRA unit is ambushed by the British Army and a number of the IRA men are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans cheer and say well done, we got some of them. The BA soldiers will be given honours and some will be promoted. They will not face prosecution.

Of course, if the IRA "soldiers" in the first example weren't caught would sit around in quiet comtemplation over the loss of life and the families they have destroyed. They
would not celebrate it, huh? They wouldn't be revered within the IRA then, or some elements of the Republican community at large? They would not be "promoted" within the ranks of the IRA.

I love this double standard stuff. It can be very amusing

A Dub in Glasgo

BuffyBot wrote:

Of course,

Is that 'Of course' referring to the fact that the BA would not face prosecution. If so, why not?

if the IRA "soldiers" in the first example weren't caught would sit around in quiet comtemplation over the loss of life and the families they have destroyed. They
would not celebrate it, huh? They wouldn't be revered within the IRA then, or some elements of the Republican community at large? They would not be "promoted" within the ranks of the IRA.

I have not suggested anything different. I have merely pointed out the hyprocisy of the 'lawful' killing in cold blood from one side and the 'unlawful' killing in cold blood from the other side. They should not be mixed and matched when the situation presents itself.

I love this double standard stuff. It can be very amusing

You love it so much that you are a willing exponent of double standards

oscarBravo

AmenToThat wrote:

She was seen as a traitor and dealt with accordingly....to me it was a horrific act but none the less war itself is horrific, tis the nature of the beast Im afraid.

Every member of the PIRA is, by definition, a traitor. FTA69's devotion to a mythical 32-county republic, and his refusal to recognise the legitimate government of Ireland and its civil and military authorities, is in effect treasonous.

Do you feel the Irish government would be justified in putting bullets in their heads without any semblance of due process? I don't.

AmenToThat wrote:

As horrible as it was it is a side issue and smells of desperation from the 'right/independent reading' of Irish politics to me.

On the contrary, it is a microcosm of everything that is vicious, cowardly and unpleasant about the Republican movement in this country.

People like FTA69 have made it clear that they consider the IRA the legitimate army of the Republic. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a Republic where the army is allowed to arbitrarily execute people it doesn't like.

AmenToThat wrote:

SF are not going to go away and the veiws in this poll suggest that a large number of the population of this country dont want them to.

I don't care whether they go away or not. I'd consider them a more legitimate political entity if they could figure out simple moral issues like murder being a crime.

AmenToThat wrote:

If that makes this section of the population 'stupid' then so be it I say.
It seems to me that the way the Irish people accepted unemployment, the abuses of the catholic church and the corruption of FF(especially in the 70s and 80s when this country really was struggling), shows that intelligence levels havnt just suddenly dropped overnight............thats assuming of course that you agree that a large section of the population is indeed stupid.

I'm totally puzzled as to your point here. There have been many wrongs, and indeed many crimes, committed by those in power in this country. Does that suddenly make it OK for other crimes to be committed? Does it make it OK for a political party that can't bring itself to describe a murder as a crime to seek respect?

AmenToThat wrote:

For the record every although I dont consider it a criminal act I, as well as just about every 'republican minded' member of this board who has posted has stated that they believe this act was gruesome and wrong...........isnt this a step forward?

I'm sorry if this is seen as a personal attack, but if you don't consider putting a bullet in a woman's head a criminal act, you must have a screw loose somewhere.

AmenToThat wrote:

I hope you can accept this as there is not a snowballs chance of the republican leadership deeming it to be a criminal act so you can either accept this and move on or just sit and become even more bitterly entrenched in your views................the very thing you scorn Republicans for btw.

If considering murder a crime is "bitterly entrenched" then excuse my while I sit here in my bitter trench, because I'd hate to think I'd ever feel differently.

Sleepy

As long as it stops them from killing people, I think the government can negotiate with Sinn Fein et al forever as far as I'm concerned.

cdebru

pogo&#324 wrote:

Just as point of fact Moloney was almost certainly wrong about McConville.

In his book it alleges that McConville was in possession of a radio transmitter, when in fact there is no record of the British army issuing radio transmitters to its agents.

If McConville had such a device this would have made her unique.

It is also worth noting that the family herself vehemently deny the allegations that she was an agent.

Her husband had recently died, and she was an ill and depressed woman struggling to bring up 10 children alone.

According to her children she simply wasn't in a fit state to do what she was alleged to have done.

Her crime was to have come to the aid of a dying British soldier, and the radio story one the Provos more transparent lies.

so if moloney is wrong about jean mcconville being an informer could he not equally be just as wrong in his allegation about gerry adams

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A British Army unit is ambushed by the IRA and a number of soldiers are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans are quick to say murder and we must find them. If the IRA are caught, they will face prosecution.

An IRA unit is ambushed by the British Army and a number of the IRA men are killed some in cold blood. All the anti-republicans cheer and say well done, we got some of them. The BA soldiers will be given honours and some will be promoted. They will not face prosecution.

I have no problems with both attacks as it is a conflict.

If I fall out with my neighbour and we come to blows, that's a conflict too. Should I be exempted from a murder charge if I kill him under those circumstances?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Nobody should be charged with murder but that is not what happens which is the reason republicans are highlighting the hypocrisy of those who cheer killings on the one hand and on the other hand deplore and are sickened by killings. Hyprocisy.

You're basing your argument on the assumption that an illegal, treasonous and seditious armed organisation has the same legitimacy for its actions as the armed forces mandated by an elected government to defend the interests of the people. That's just ridiculous.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

As for killing civilians, all parties to any conflict who recklessly kills civilians in a conflict should be held accountable. A lot of people here seem to think only one side should be held accountable, that is the reason why the victims of the state do not feel they are getting justice.

Everyone should be held accountable, but it's only reasonable that the standards should be somewhat different for a legitimate army than for a seditious terrorist group.

cdebru

irish1 wrote:

I would just like to make it clear, that is the view of FTA69, and not the view of Sinn Fein, the killing of Jean McConville was WRONG, very wrong.

FTA69 I think your support for Sinn Fein is embarrassing, I want people to know that FTA69 is not a typical supporter

the killing of jean mcconville was a crime under UK law it would have been a crime under irish law
it is quite possible that the people who killed her believed they were killing an informer and since they did not accept british rule nor the 26 county government and were acting under the authority of what they believed to be the legitimate government of the republic the IRA army council they would not accept what they did was a crime
the best that republicans can say is it was wrong as to describe it as a crime leaves open the possibility of accepting that all IRA operations were crimes
which they were if you accept the right of the british government to make laws in ireland which at the time prvovisionals did not


if she was an informer then there maybe some justification for for her killing in the circumstances that existed then

however I don't accept that she was an informer even if the IRA convinced her to confess to it
I think that she was a protestant woman living in a nationalist area she did not fit in and probably did not hold the general views of her neighbours which made her stand out from the crowd.
there is also the story of her coming to th e aid of a british soldier it is more than likely that it is these reasons that led to her murder

I was told by a republican many years ago that she had died of a heart attack while being questioned by the IRA
this was a lie as we discovered when the womans body was discovered
but it was not the only lie that the IRA told about this woman

the IRA knew they had done a terrible wrong at the time as that is the obvious reason for hiding her body at the time if they could have stood over the allegation that she was an informer surely they would have treated her as other informers and dumped her body on the border a s a warning to other informers
not pretended she had run off and they knew nothing about it

true

cdebru wrote:

it is quite possible that the people who killed her believed they were killing an informer and since they did not accept british rule nor the 26 county government and were acting under the authority of what they believed to be the legitimate government of the republic the IRA army council they would not accept what they did was a crime
the best that republicans can say is it was wrong as to describe it as a crime leaves open the possibility of accepting that all IRA operations were crimes
which they were if you accept the right of the british government to make laws in ireland which at the time prvovisionals did not

if she was an informer then there maybe some justification for for her killing in the circumstances that existed then

Even if she was an "informer", who was she informing to? It would have been to the security services of the state , which was provided by the elected government. Who was the traitor, her or the IRA ? Who elected the IRA ? What right had the IRA to tar and feather the other dozen or so women in the Falls road around this time? It was to drive a wedge between the army and the locals. What right had the IRA to abduct and torture and kill Mrs McC. ?
And then tell her kids she ran off with a British soldier, and leave a large young family heartbroken and hungry and alone.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

If I fall out with my neighbour and we come to blows, that's a conflict too. Should I be exempted from a murder charge if I kill him under those circumstances?

A rather lazy analogy. Should your neighbour face charges if he kills you?

You're basing your argument on the assumption that an illegal, treasonous and seditious armed organisation has the same legitimacy for its actions as the armed forces mandated by an elected government to defend the interests of the people. That's just ridiculous. Everyone should be held accountable, but it's only reasonable that the standards should be somewhat different for a legitimate army than for a seditious terrorist group.

The standards should be far higher for the state. It is ridiculous that the the army and police of the state can commit murder and get away with it

As I said, a text book example of hypocrisy

treasonous and seditious - new buzzwords from the OATSA?

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

t
it is quite possible that the people who killed her believed they were killing an informer and since they did not accept british rule nor the 26 county government and were acting under the authority of what they believed to be the legitimate government of the republic the IRA army council they would not accept what they did was a crime

Many criminals don't accept what they do is a crime.
To present a scenario whereby its legitimate for anyone to self determine that they can usurp the laws of a democratic society just because they dont agree with the democratic majority is Cloud Cuckoo Esque.
Theres no legitimacy in that approach at all.

A Dub in Glasgo

Nothing democratic about how NI came into being or the situation that existed in NI when the IRA killed Jean McConville.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A rather lazy analogy. Should your neighbour face charges if he kills you?

Yes, unless he kills you while you ambush him with an AK47. Then it is self defence.


The standards should be far higher for the state.

They are. The state security services are accountable for their actions, and generally wear clearly identifiable uniforms , have ID and identifiable vehicles. Their job is to uphold the law, not break it. They achieve this 99.9% of the time. In every body of thousands of people anywhere in the world, you will never get 100% perfection.
As a southener, I have always found them friendly, courteous and efficient.


It is ridiculous that the the army and police of the state can commit murder and get away with it

Nobody said the entire Northern security services had a 100% perfectly clean record since 1969. However, look how much effort and money is being put in to the last Bloody Sunday enquiry etc ( even though it has emerged that a provisional IRA man who said he shot from his weapon that day has retracted his statement). Nobody or no state is perfect.
Or do you mean Garda collusion, which resulted in the death of N.I. Justice Gibson and his wife, and several RUC men etc?

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Nothing democratic about how NI came into being or the situation that existed in NI when the IRA killed Jean McConville.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The Rep of Ireland was not perfect in early / mid 20th century either. But nobody went around torturing and killing mothers of ten, and then hiding their bodies until coastal erosion revealed them decades later.

monument

billy the squid wrote:

(for those that believe this is actually a war)

So, now there was no war*, there must have been peace in the North and the media must have made it all up - is that right?

This thread is another example of users here being more sickened of the thought of the republicans in power, then out murdering people. Which is sicking to me.

*war - armed fighting between two or more countries or groups URL=http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=89016&dict=CALD]1[/URL

true

monument wrote:

So, now there was no war*, there must have been peace in the North and the media must have made it all up - is that right?

This thread is another example of users here being more sickened of the thought of the republicans in power, then out murdering people. Which is sicking to me.

*war - armed fighting between two or more countries or groups URL=http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=89016&dict=CALD]1[/URL

There was no war : it was a terrorist campaign, waged by civilian clothed terrorists / freedom fighters - call them what you will. The IRA / INLA etc were not fighting on behalf of any government, democratically elected or otherwise.


Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are republicans. The IRA are terrorists. Until Sinn Fein distances itself from the provos, it will be tarnished by the same brush.

It seems Sinn Fein / IRA are not sickened at the thought of murder - it does not even consider that of Jean McConville a crime. If Sinn Fein cannot even recognise a crime, what hope have they / us if they were in power?

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Yes, unless he kills you while you ambush him with an AK47. Then it is self defence.

Here we go again.... and what if you went for a pre-emptive strike witrh your AK-47 before he gets a chance to kill you?

They are. The state security services are accountable for their actions, and generally wear clearly identifiable uniforms , have ID and identifiable vehicles. Their job is to uphold the law, not break it. They achieve this 99.9% of the time. In every body of thousands of people anywhere in the world, you will never get 100% perfection.
As a southener, I have always found them friendly, courteous and efficient.

Another % plucked from thin air from true. If the standards are really higher for the state, how come you can count the number of convictions on one hand? They (the state) committed murder and got away with it, yet you do not see it.You label groups who highlight the murder as pro-IRA propaganda. As a southener, I have sometimes found them friendly, courteous and efficient. Othertimes I have found them to be anything but. No 100%'s for me unlike true.

Nobody said the entire Northern security services had a 100% perfectly clean record since 1969.

How about looking at the facts then rather than patronise us with your 99.9% and dismissing anything that questions them or puts them into bad light as pro-IRA propaganda.

However, look how much effort and money is being put in to the last Bloody Sunday enquiry etc

Yes and look how we got the British to look into Bloody Sunday again. The original enquiry was a cover-up and whitewash. The soldiers that murdered the innocents were honoured and given promotions. Everybody in the British establishment were happy that they slapped the croppies down again and taught them a lesson.

The British government were shamed into looking into Bloody Sunday again and it is now costing their people a fortune.

Nobody or no state is perfect.

Correct, yet you continue to dismiss groups highlighting state murder as pro-IRA propaganda.

Or do you mean Garda collusion, which resulted in the death of N.I. Justice Gibson and his wife, and several RUC men etc?

If there was collusion, yes. There should be a public enquiry to look into it.

Interestingly, you dismiss allegations and evidence of British state collusion into the murders of people as pro-IRA proaganda yet you state that the killing of Gibson and other RUC men were as a result of Irish state collusion.

Why am I not surprised at that?

Sleepy

The IRA and all the other murdering scumbags in the north always left informers bodies to be found in public places. It's a age-old tactic used by bandits to "dissuade" (reaad intimidate) the law-abiding public from doing their civic duty. If, as the IRA would have us believe, Jean McConville was an informer, why did they break their own established practices and "disappear" her body?

/me awaits SF spin claiming that this was done with the welfare of her children in mind :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Nothing democratic about how NI came into being or the situation that existed in NI when the IRA killed Jean McConville.

Well then lets put the IRA campaign to a vote and see whats said :rolleyes: