What would you of done ?

RasTa

Playing on VC last night and i got bored of my usual 1 dollar to 3 dollar stakes on the single tourney tables so i decided to take a risk and sit down at a 6 seater 50 buck SST

Anyway first hand i start of with a 8 and 5 of spades so call the 40 bet before the flop. Two players fold and 3 are in. Flop comes 6(s) 7(c) 8(h) One player bets 160 another calls, i call and the player next to me goes all in... The other two fold.
Would you of called the all in at those stakes or folded ? I'll let yous know what happened but its being kinda bugging me since

Zulu

I would have folded.

Iago

You're being asked for 1,800 to win a pot of 4,400 so that's around 2.5:1 for your money

You have potentially 10 outs (any 9, 4 or 8) and then a unlikely but possible further 9 outs (looking for runner runner flush) concentrating on the 10 outs then your odds of hitting one of these cards is around 65%..I think (DeV or Hector will probably correct me) if you hit trips would it be enough? Maybe not so then your odds drop down to around 50% to fill your straight which may still just split the pot and are you willing to risk your entire stack at such a low blind level on you hitting your full hand and it being better than theirs?

I think I'd fold here, the reward doesn't justify the risk, and you have plenty of time to wait for a better chance to double your chips.

DeVore

Iago's account locked because its *obviously* not him posting about odds and payback from the pot 'n' all...

IMHO:
a. I wouldnt have played 85 suited in the first place.
b. I think your call on the flop is weak, if you are thinking about calling a raise (especially an all-in raise!) then you should raise it yourself. You have a good hand for that flop given that you have top pair and an up-n-downer. On the other hand you could be facing X8 or a made straight. If its a made top straight you are in a serious world of pain. 89 is a hand that utterly shags you sideways.
I'd probably step away from it at this point but I dont think its tooo terrible a call if you make it. Personally I wouldnt.

DeV.

ps: Iago's account unlocked again because he got just about every probability in that post wrong (up and down straight draws hit about 1/3rd of the time and runner runner flushes save your ass about 1 time in 25... not really what I consider "outs" as such )

Lafortezza

Q3s > 85s and its not even close.

RasTa

Yea i dont know why but i called it this time. The other player turning over pocket 6's. I hit the 9 on the turn so happy days and did go onto win the game taking out every player but did you ever get that when your not happy even though you won the hand! It could of ended at the start! Yea theres no way i'd fold 8/5 spade pre-flop when the binds are only 40.
Anyway bigest win for me so far but i was still thinking about that first hand afterwards. Someone got a royal on the table aswell

mewso

First off I agree with Dev. This hand should have been in the bin right from the start. This all-in guy is obviously a bit of an idiot. If he has A8 then hes ahead which is fine but it's not a hand to risk your whole stack on. If he has 910 then he hasn't a clue how to get paid with good hands. Either way it's not worth a call imo.

DeVore

lafortezza wrote:

Q3s > 85s and its not even close.

Dont go there. Just dont.
I'm not taking criticism of my odds calculations from someone who admits to just thinking about boobies instead. Boobies are fine but wont win you pots (unless of course they are YOUR boobies).

I'll get me coat.

DeV.

RasTa

Hah yous should play on VC they are all idiots. But i never fold 2 suited cards when the binds are low. Have more luck with them then pocket Aces, seems all of you are far to tight on these boards. Let us know next time theres a tourney

*edit*

I was wrong to play that hand but i dont think 8 and 5 is garbage, deffo worth seeing the flop

DeVore

Each to his own but I have to wonder what sort of flop you are looking for? 2 spades isnt too awful for you, you might be the only one holding 2 more and then probably 1:3 times you'll have the best of it. If you flop 3 spades, its not so much fun as people will be betting their high spades and you wont really know if you are facing a draw or a made flush. The straight seems highly unlikely. All of these are difficult to get paid big on without being beaten and you have to cover the 200 odd times you play the hand and toss it on the flop.

DeV.

Iago

DeVore wrote:

(up and down straight draws hit about 1/3rd of the time and runner runner flushes save your ass about 1 time in 25... not really what I consider "outs" as such )

I seem to remember beating you in three hands out of four with runner runner flushes DeV but yeah very unlikely to say the least which is why I discounted them.

I'd of thought that up and downs hit more often than that. I definitely thought it was closer to 50% but you're the maths wiz so I'll bow to your superior knowledge.

85s will win out around 28% of the time against 66 on that board so it was a lucky escape. I don't see anything particularily wrong with playing 85s preflop when the blinds are so low, what was it a 50th of your stack? seems ok, but if you get into the habit of it then you're throwing money away in the long run..

DeVore

Hitting an up and down straight draw requires one of 8 cards (all else being equal).
Hitting a flush draw requires one of 9 cards (presuming you can see 4 of them already!).

I dont actually know the odds exactly (like to the exact %) but my shortcut mental arithmetic puts the straight at 32% and the flush at 36% to hit.
I usually round that to 1:3 for both. If its close enough for the spare %'s to make the difference then its sufficently knife-edged that other factors (stack, position, knowledge of opponent) would have more impact then the odds.

DeV.

Imposter

Iago wrote:

I'd of thought that up and downs hit more often than that. I definitely thought it was closer to 50% but you're the maths wiz so I'll bow to your superior knowledge.

2 cards to come, 8 outs = 8 * 4% (approx) = 32% so about 1 in 3 chance.

Marq

if you were in position with 85s i would certainly call a small raise with it pre-flop. that's the perfect flop for your hand (although two spades as opposed to one would have made it an absolute dream flop). I'm all in (as Lafortezza learned last night in the holdem cash game when a very similar situation came up)

If you're going to play suited connectors like that, then what more do you want from the flop than top pair and an openended straight draw? if you're going to fold this hand on this flop, you might as well fold it before the flop.

Also, don't listen to these philistine rocks who tell you to throw it away pre-flop. they're all fools

(if you're in position and the raise isn't too great and there's value in the pot)

Hectorjelly

The call is good preflop, the 1st call on the flop is fine, the call of the all in is ok, you certainly have some outs but its hard to tell what they are. If you think you can outplay your opponents then Id fold to the all in.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

Each to his own but I have to wonder what sort of flop you are looking for? 2 spades isnt too awful for you, you might be the only one holding 2 more and then probably 1:3 times you'll have the best of it. If you flop 3 spades, its not so much fun as people will be betting their high spades and you wont really know if you are facing a draw or a made flush. The straight seems highly unlikely. All of these are difficult to get paid big on without being beaten and you have to cover the 200 odd times you play the hand and toss it on the flop.

DeV.

85s is a very good hand, and if its for 1/100th of your stack it should be an auto call. A raise is good too. Flopping a flush is great, and if people want to semi bluff with a flush draw then all the better.

Dub13

RasTa wrote:

Hah yous should play on VC they are all idiots. But i never fold 2 suited cards when the binds are low. Have more luck with them then pocket Aces, seems all of you are far to tight on these boards. Let us know next time theres a tourney

The problem with playing 8 5 etc is even if you hit on the flop if a big raise comes in you would not have a clue were you stand you can talk yourself into trouble

Hectorjelly

Dub13 wrote:

The problem with playing 8 5 etc is even if you hit on the flop if a big raise comes in you would not have a clue were you stand you can talk yourself into trouble

You can avoid decisions like this by not playing poker

Marq

Dub13 wrote:

The problem with playing 8 5 etc is even if you hit on the flop if a big raise comes in you would not have a clue were you stand you can talk yourself into trouble

I dislike the implication that there is a problem with playing 85.

Waylander

So if 8 5s is a fair hand to play, and I am not saying it s not, but I am curious, is a hand like Q 6s or J 5s also playable, or do they need to be live cards to make a straight? Personally I would not have called pre flop but I do not think the post flop call was so bad.

Marq

queen six and jack five are utterly appalling hands, particularly if you're calling a raise (or just plain calling) pre-flop. what do you do if you hit your picture card? bet? check? if you bet and are raised you usually have to pass. with hands like 75 or 86 or 64 you usually konw where you are after the flop (admittedly, in many cases, nowhere, though the same can be said of any hand including ace king) and you can be reasonably sure that if you hit either of your cards on a low board that there isn't someone else out there that has you outkickered.

most people will play low suited connectors like 67 or 45, and there is very little difference between these hands and one holers such as 86, and only a slight difference between them and two-holers such as 85.

Hectorjelly

Waylander wrote:

So if 8 5s is a fair hand to play, and I am not saying it s not, but I am curious, is a hand like Q 6s or J 5s also playable, or do they need to be live cards to make a straight? Personally I would not have called pre flop but I do not think the post flop call was so bad.

What an odd question.....Its much harder to make a straight with J5, then 57, plus any straight you make with J5 is very unlikely to get paid off.

Waylander

Yeah sorry, was a bit drunk. I did not mean would you call hoping to hit a straight with them, I meant would you only call if they were live cards, or would you call with suited cards if one of them was a picture card.

Hectorjelly

Waylander wrote:

Yeah sorry, was a bit drunk. I did not mean would you call hoping to hit a straight with them, I meant would you only call if they were live cards, or would you call with suited cards if one of them was a picture card.

I wouldnt personally, but I know people who are successfull and will limp in late position with anything thats suited.

Iago

DeVore wrote:

Hitting an up and down straight draw requires one of 8 cards (all else being equal).
Hitting a flush draw requires one of 9 cards (presuming you can see 4 of them already!).

I dont actually know the odds exactly (like to the exact %) but my shortcut mental arithmetic puts the straight at 32% and the flush at 36% to hit.
I usually round that to 1:3 for both. If its close enough for the spare %'s to make the difference then its sufficently knife-edged that other factors (stack, position, knowledge of opponent) would have more impact then the odds.

DeV.

Believe it or not, I'm not an idiot. Honestly I'm not

My alcohol soaked, tired brain decided to calculate the odds based on 3 cards to come rather than 2. I've suitably berated it then made up with it by soaking it with more alcohol as the weekend wore on...

[size=-4]"All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't like me - so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer"[/size]