How many of you "believers" think they will get to heaven?

chernobyl · 27-06-2001 5:27am #1

First i must state that i have no faith in religion, but a thought occurred to me, it doesn’t matter whether i believe or not, or in fact if you do cus if god does exist then every human in the "western" world is going to hell.
Just living the western world life style guarantees your pass to hell, we eat and cloth ourselves as a result of evil.Shoes on my feet, clothes on my back (and yours) are made by slaves.
I shall see all you belivers in hell with me.
God is supposedly just, so who do you think will get preference @ "the gates" when you die and some ethopian dies?.
it was just a thought, still think im food for the worms though.

Britany Spears Looking incredible

Lucy_la_morte · 27-06-2001 7:53am

That's a bad argument.

Miaow.

Lucy la morte.

Chubby · 27-06-2001 9:00am

Don't worry chernobyl, when I die and go to heaven I'll have my rocket launcher with me. After disposing of god, I will sit in the throne of heaven and let anyone in regardless of sex, race, religion, sexual orientation or past deeds etc. This god will not discriminate. And there'll be punch and pie for everyone...yay.

[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 27-06-2001).]

Qualm · 27-06-2001 2:37pm

That Is an interesting thought, but surely
we should gain entrance to the higher world
based on the consistancy of our spirits and
the basic goodness in our souls. If not, I
really think God should look into this
sort of method of sorting the dead. Much
fairer really.

chernobyl · 27-06-2001 5:12pm

Originally posted by Lucy_la_morte:
That's a bad argument.

i cant trust anything you say cus we have come face to face and you seem to have taken it personally.

Oh yeah · 27-06-2001 5:39pm

I agree on principal, no point to living and yadayadayada, but it's just occurred to me that though there is no evidence to conclusively show the existence of a god, is there enough to completely deny it?

Hell's a Christian idea (so it seems to me), not all religions have a parralell... (like... bah, can't remember which one, Budhism I think, where you get reincarnated in one of seven social situations decided upon by how you lived before. Tricky thing is working out which end gets you to Nirvana, I think... am I way off here?), as far as I know..

Life is like a pyrotechnics display. You've got to stand back and let it happen, othwerwise you're are sincerely bollocked....

thegreensock.com

Can you feel the love?

scutchy · 27-06-2001 6:53pm

Originally posted by Oh yeah:
...it's just occurred to me that though there is no evidence to conclusively show the existence of a god, is there enough to completely deny it?

In my humble opinion, and I should perhaps add that I'm an atheist, NO.

That said, you can't completely deny that the earth came from the rectum of a giant space elephant, and you can't disprove the existance of Santa Claus.

Just felt like chucking that in

Manach · 27-06-2001 9:48pm

Off hand in replying to Chernobyl's rather plaintive initial topic

Heaven: the getting into
My view is that there is 2 standards of morality, a universal one and the one the individual believes in themselves within their own society. The nub of the matter is how closely the two intersect. Of course as I believe in (insert choice here) I must be correct.

Hell: the avoidance thereof
God's own capacity for mercy may be infinite esp. regard to Dante's amusement park, but we might be faced with the toughest judge of all. A version of ourselves with all our self-serving delusions laid bare and we become manifest for who we truly are.

Bard · 27-06-2001 10:08pm

What's the point in telling them they're going to hell if they don't believe in such a place?

As Lucy said, your argument is flawed.

As for the me vs. the ethiopian at the "pearly gates", - I believe I've led a good life and tried to be a nice guy. Just because someone is of Ethiopian nationality doesn't automatically mean that they were a good and deserving person.

Bard

Fatter, happier, more productive.

chernobyl · 27-06-2001 11:20pm

it was an opinion, but normally i would never argue it as i dont believe in the existence of heaven, it was just an early morning thought. ( had not had my cheerios yet)

Britany Spears Looking incredible

scutchy · 27-06-2001 11:55pm

Your post makes several assumptions, most notably that all 'believers' believe in your version of the Christian God.

I know Christians, for instance, who believe that enterance to heaven is gained by acceptance that Jesus paid for their sins - including the use of slaves.

It also presumes that their God would condemn them to infinite punishment for finite sins.

And there's the whole purgatory thing, not to mention reincarnation, various levels of afterlife - many different religious views.

Which God are you talking about? Is this directed mainly at Christians, and if so, which ones? Just to clarify for debate.

Nice topic btw - I look forward to it.

bonkey · 28-06-2001 10:06am

Originally posted by chernobyl:
First i must state that i have no faith in religion,

<snip>

if god does exist then every human in the "western" world is going to hell.

<Snip>

I shall see all you belivers in hell with me.
God is supposedly just, so who do you think will get preference @ "the gates" when you die and some ethopian dies?.

Right....this is an interesting topic, but the basic premise which you started with is fundamentally flawed.

If "god" exists....dont you mean "if the Catholic god exists", because so many different religions have completely different tents about their god, how he/she/it reacts, where they go when they die, etc. etc. etc.

There are also many "other" gods as believed in by other religions. There are Christian religions which preach that membership to their religion GUARANTEES a place in heaven. So we're not just talking about Christianity here, but quite specifically Catholicism from what I can see.

So, while you profess to having no faith in religion, you also imply that the only religion which we should be considering is Catholicism. Which is very peculiar....if you believe, then say so. If you dont, then how can you countenance starting a discussion which is based around the beliefs of a single religion by using the term "if god does exist" ?????

Maybe I'm too picky....I shall assume that you simply phrased the question wrong?

By rephrasing your question to say "if the catholics are right", then it does lead to an interesting topic.

I will assume that when you say

if god does exist then every human in the "western" world is going to hell.

you dont actually mean every one of them, nor do you imply that only the "western world" is damned, because both of these notions are also massivley flawed. (As Ian Paisley once put it - all generalisations are flawed.)

WHich brings us back to a much more refined question....

If the catholic belief is correct, then is an individual damned for accepting, allowing to continue, or simply ignoring the social and economic injustices which our western capitalistic society is responsible for.

That becomes a much less fun question, and to be honest, I think you can argue it either way....and of course, if its your belief, then you must be right.

jc

bonkey · 28-06-2001 12:19pm

Originally posted by musician:
All beliefs are essentially the invention of a human mind/s.

Unfortunately, this too is nothing more than a belief, and is therefore no more (or less) valid than any of the other beliefs.

jc

Bob the Unlucky Octopus · 28-06-2001 12:56pm

Originally posted by bonkey:

Originally posted by musician:
All beliefs are essentially the invention of a human mind/s.

Unfortunately, this too is nothing more than a belief, and is therefore no more (or less) valid than any of the other beliefs.

jc

I disagree bonkey- musician undoubtedly meant that these are creations of human belief as far as we know. Psycologically speaking, the idea of believing in a supernatural force makes sense within the innate subconscious and the superego. In other words, the likelihood is that the reason for people having faith in something they perceive as existant in their minds which they regard as greater and more powerful. The grit of what musician's getting at is that his belief is from an objective stance, and those of faithful Christians are identified from a subjective standpoint.

It doesn't make sense to say that his belief is no more or less valid than anyone else's beliefs about religion- his beliefs are within the realms of possibility- as such, in my opinion, we should treat them as an objective and sensible view.

(edited for spelling)

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Carpe Diem=

[This message has been edited by Bob the Unlucky Octopus (edited 28-06-2001).]

scutchy · 28-06-2001 12:59pm

Originally posted by musician:
...Atheists and Religious fanatics should get together...

That's an interesting grouping you have there - I've never come across an atheist who's tried to convert me.

When people find out I'm an atheist, they generally argue the point with me, but I never set out to convert people...

That said, maybe you just met some strange atheists

bonkey · 28-06-2001 2:07pm

Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:
<snip>
It doesn't make sense to say that his belief is no more or less valid than anyone else's beliefs about religion- his beliefs are within the realms of possibility - as such, in my opinion, we should treat them as an objective and sensible view.

Yes, and from this, I infer that you are most probably atheistic

You dont see the chance of a religious view being "correct", as it is not within the bounds of possibility.

Rather than get into a discussion of what is and isnt possible, lets re-classify it as "insignificantly probable" or "massively improbable", to the point where you believe it cane be discarded along with the "two-second-old universe with artificial memory" theory, the "glass marble from the end of MIB" theory, and all the rest of them.

But now, it becomes a matter of degree. At what point does something become sufficiently probable that you can say it does make sense to hold a belief as equally valid as another? Only when they are equally probable? Or is there a minimal quantifiable degree of probability which is required to make a point "equally valid". Does mass acceptance of an idea lend it validity, or remove from it? Is there any such thing as a truly objective opinion, or is that a tautology???

My perspective is that a belief in no religion is as valid as a belief in any given religion, or indeed as a belief that there is no god. Each is a belief. Each is unproveable, and possible to some varying degree. Each is, therefore, a valid perspective, and should remain so until we have a definitive answer.

Or the universe collapses.

Or expands to almost-nothingness

jc

[This message has been edited by bonkey (edited 28-06-2001).]

mewso · 28-06-2001 11:54pm

All beliefs are essentially the invention of a human mind/s. Heaven and Hell were invented to create consequences for being good/evil, also human conceptions. In the same way a parent might tell a child that Santa Claus will only give you presents if they are good, that Jack Frost will get them if they are bad etc.
Just like any theory be it scientific or theoretical you can't proove it right or wrong conclusively. Because of this I stand on the fence and live the way I believe I should live, very much influenced by human conceptions of good/evil of course, and I choose to be as good a person as possible. On the other hand believing in either the existence of a God or the abscence is holding very simlar convictions on either end of the spectrum. Atheists and Religious fanatics should get together. Believe what you want but start impinging on others lives/beliefs and you get the thumbs down from me.
i.e. don't knock on my door holding pamplets/the secret to hapiness you saddos.

ThrAx · 05-07-2001 9:44am

just forget about it. live your life the way you live it and when u die u will go wherever ur supposed to go. theres no point in debating the existence of god. what will happen will happen and thats all we need to know.

This device complies with part 15 of the PCC rules. Ooperation is subject to the following two conditions:
(1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and
(2) This device must accept any interference recieved, including muppetry from muppets which may cause undesired operation.

Miguel_Sanchez · 05-07-2001 10:05am

To be honest it's not the guys who come around knocking on your door that you should worry about. Jehovah's Witnesses have never tried to force their beliefs on me. If you tell them that you're really not interested in discussing it with them then they just go.

The real problem I have is with the right wing Christians in the Southern States of America - the ones who believe that the reason prayers aren't allowed in schools anymore is because there's a huge Liberal Anti-Christian conspiracy going on. Of course these people talk about freedom of religion but would be the very ones forcing school kids of other religions to partake in prayers at school if they got their way based on the fact that they're right with their religion and other religions are fundamentally wrong.

If the shoe was on the other foot and these people were in the minority, having their kids forced to saw Jewish prayers at school there would be uproar.

..... what was the question again?

I'm the Dude

Oh yeah · 07-07-2001 12:28am

Originally posted by ThrAx:
just forget about it. live your life the way you live it and when u die u will go wherever ur supposed to go. theres no point in debating the existence of god. what will happen will happen and thats all we need to know.

Hmm. Not to point out the obivious (or perhaps even to do so), but there's no point in debating anything then, we may as well just vegetate till we die and do nothing. My belief is that when you die you die, and you try to live right because it's right. That's as much as 'm sure of.

Life is like a pyrotechnics display. You've got to stand back and let it happen, othwerwise you're are sincerely bollocked....

thegreensock.com

Can you feel the love?

Magwitch · 07-07-2001 3:25am

I have been in a few foxholes so I do not take athiests seriously, but I also do not believe in an after life or anything else except death (the big "D").

A belief in an after life does amke the inevitable alot more palatable and hence people are encouraged to behave themselves in the short time they have, so I would not knock the concept.

The Clown Man · 09-07-2001 9:55am

Maybe a slightly different approach is needed on religion for everyone to clear up what theyre ideas on heaven actually are. After all, the whole point of religion is to make it to heaven.
I seem to think of it this way. To look at heaven from an entirely scientific approach and to search for the standard of proof that is required to convince anybody of anything today, one should look at the thousands of cases of near-death experiences that are in living memory. How come they all see a 'one' being that gives them a huge sence of comfort. How come the 'tunnel' experience is felt by all.
In my own opinion, there has to be something directly related in each of these cases. That is easy - theyre all dying. There has to be some sort of phenomenon that occurs in the last seconds of a persons life which is the interpretation of 'heaven'. Maybe it is the brains 'summing up' of life; the final thought, where one comforts himself with all the experiences of his entire life and that moment, theoretically, would last for ever in the persons mind. Time means nothing to the human brain; i know i've lost hours in my relentless pursuit of insensibility through toxic substances. Im sure we've all had moments which seemed to last for months (a few spring to mind). In that case would it not be fair to say that the minds interpretation of a moment could last forever as far as the person ivolved is concerned. Especially if youre not going to be distracted by any other moments cause your nearly dead. And thus, you have heaven. Your entrance to heaven is entirely based on your own opinion on whether you deserve comfort or discomfort for your own, personal eternity.
I believe that there is a heaven that is formed by yourself in yourself and from all reports on near death experiences its pretty damn good; there is a general reluctance on leaving this 'heaven' which seems to be a trait of most cases, so i assume its deadly (excuse the pun).
As for the 'one' being - i'm baffled. I assume that it is something along the lines of what occy was saying, that there is a tendancy in the human mind to believe in a supremity (if thats the right word - it is 10:30 and i havent slept yet - dont ask) that is beyond our understanding and totaly above ourselves. But what gets in the way of that theory is the fact that every single case describes this being regardless of his race or creed and whether he has a creed or not. It seems too general among a selecton of totaly different people.
Lets put it this way, before electricity was found to be what it is, no one understood it. It was a power that had not been found. Everyone knew it was there in some form (lightning, static shocks etc.) but no one knew what the hell it was. How does telekinesis work? Is it linked with some form of life-force that martial arts tend to touch on now and again. We don't know. But its there. It happens and its used. So what about this 'God'. We dont know. But it happens and its used. As far as im concerned im happy to accept that i dont have a fúcking clue, but i know the general gist and i do not fear the outcome.

Rest comfortably my sons for you decide your own fates.

And sorry for the super-long post

Any critisism is welcomed.

scutchy · 09-07-2001 11:58pm

Originally posted by Magwitch:

>>I have been in a few foxholes so I do not take athiests seriously,

(1) You're a dublin based programmer, how did you end up in foxholes?

(2) If you can't spell atheist, why should I take you seriously?

(3) Do you mean to say that you do not take Daoists seriously? Or Bhuddists?

http://www.humanist.net/essays/foxhole.html - you might find it interesting. I'm not a humanist myself though.

>>but I also do not believe in an after life or anything else except death (the big "D").

Just curious, what god do you believe in>

>>A belief in an after life does amke the inevitable alot more palatable and hence people are encouraged to behave themselves in the short time they have, so I would not knock the concept.

You're kidding, right? 'cos religion has never caused any sort of harm, oh no - rape victims aren't killed by their families because of it, paedophiles aren't hidden in the name of it, and human rights aren't trampled in it's name.

Anyone who believes that their little group gets into heaven while everyone else rots in hell is a bigot.

Oh yeah · 16-07-2001 12:12am

Originally posted by The Clown Man:
it is 10:30 and i havent slept yet - dont ask

I have to say, I really do wanna ask..

You appear to have the cate by the whiskers. It's a nice theory.

I just disagree becuase, well, I'm an argumentative ******** at times. Or maybe I do agree, it's a little grey. You've managed to explain basically everything, and oddly it makes sense. Last time I tried to do this, the whole room looked at me funny.

What, like quoting The Lord of the Rings is an odd way to start a moral debate?

Life is like a pyrotechnics display. You've got to stand back and let it happen, othwerwise you're are sincerely bollocked....

thegreensock.com

Can you feel the love?

tHE vAGGABOND · 16-07-2001 10:19am

to answer the original question - me

scutchy · 16-07-2001 5:56pm

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:
to answer the original question - me

I dunno, it's a pretty desirable location, and what with property prices these days...

neuro-praxis · 21-07-2001 7:16pm

Geoff, it's really funny that you slagged somebody for mis-spelling atheist and then proceeded to mis-spell buddhist.

But that's okay.

Scutchy is my favourite atheist in the whole world.

Edited to say: There is no point in me entering in on this argument because it would go mental

. But, I know I'm going to Heaven. The arrogance comments may ensue now.

[This message has been edited by neuro-praxis (edited 21-07-2001).]

JustHalf · 22-07-2001 12:21am

Arrogance comment #1.

scutchy · 22-07-2001 8:51pm

Originally posted by neuro-praxis:
Geoff, it's really funny that you slagged somebody for mis-spelling atheist and then proceeded to mis-spell buddhist.

Em... Deliberate error...

Scutchy is my favourite atheist in the whole world.

(by that I mean blush) Any chance you could put in a good word for me in the "Are women getting more violent?" thread, or in the "Martial Arts" thread? I came across as quite the psycho. (I'm really more of a sociopath

)

I'd return the compliment, (with an obvious modification) but I'm only 90% sure who you are. Not wishing to use names on a BB, are you the person I recently taught to sidekick?

I know I'm going to Heaven. The arrogance comments may ensue now.

I know you're not. That's about as arrogant as I can get at the moment

Hang on, on re-reading this thread, I haven't been nearly as intolerant as I could've been... me is off to edit posts...

Link for ya - Aikido clips. tres cool.http://www.aikidofaq.com/multimedia.html

TwoShedsJackson · 22-07-2001 10:56pm

Originally posted by neuro-praxis:

But, I know I'm going to Heaven.

Wow, nothing like blind faith to enable a Christian to bring a debate on Heaven to a close.

TwoShedsJackson · 23-07-2001 1:01pm

It is. All the prayer and meditation in the world does not and can not enable you to know you will enter Heaven.

I in no way object to anyone having such faith, indeed I hope it makes them happy in this life, however to blindly state something like that is ultimate arrogance, to me.

Nothing is of greater vanity than to force oneself to swallow whole a moral system elaborated by others, under another sky --- Primo Levi

WhiteWashMan · 23-07-2001 2:59pm

Originally posted by neuro-praxis:

But, I know I'm going to Heaven(edited 21-07-2001).]

its always nice to have a bible-basher enter the arguement.
wheres the excelsior muppet?
havent seen him in a while.

and why do you know you are going to heaven?
how do you know there is a heaven?
have you been there?
have you met anyone who has been there?
have you met god?
do you know anyone that has met god?

personally i believe that you people are on serious amounts of happy pills. how can you be so happy and yet so completely deluded?
id love to see the world through whatever glasses you wear, seriously, it would be so fun. you never know, maybe id believe in nothing then as well and be happy about it.
besides, all us prods get into heaven apparently. its only catholics who go to hell. and i think vatican2 fairly much got rid of purgatory to who ever suggested that.

i miss excelsior. theres a man who wouldnt justify his own faith if his life depended on it....

Your Imps Demand Cable...

scutchy · 23-07-2001 3:17pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
It is. All the prayer and meditation in the world does not and can not enable you to know you will enter Heaven.

To get philosophical about it, I don't know with absolute certainty that my chair isn't going to turn into a flesh-eating hamster

It's a very reasonable assumption though, and I'm willing to say that I "know" it, even if that isn't really the case.

In a way, it's a matter of faith. I wouldn't describe it as blind faith though, it's based on reasoning, science, and past experience. And if someone truly believes that they communicate with Jesus, are following his laws and doing all that is required to get into heaven, they can "know" that they will get there.

That said, being born into a religion you've never researched or studied and believing you'll get into heaven because all the heathens are shatun worshuppin' daemons - that's blind faith.

I in no way object to anyone having such faith, indeed I hope it makes them happy in this life, however to blindly state something like that is ultimate arrogance, to me.

I have problems with some people's faiths - believing you have a divine mandate has led to some of the sickest occourances on this planet. And a close relative of mine believes that she will go to heaven and I will go to hell; it does not bring her much happiness.

As for arrogance:

Arrogance - Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance

These people believe that they're fundamentally evil!

The Christian belief on entering heaven (as I read it) is based not on being better than others, but accepting Christ's sacrifice as payment for being inherently evil.

I feel the more arrogant claim of Christians is that their God is absolute good - if good is decided by God, then the term is meaningless - he could define child abuse as good. He could define genocide and infanticide as good, and then do so. Oh, hang on... That said, if good and bad are not defined by God, that doesn't exactly fit in with the all-powerful side...

Nothing is of greater vanity than to force oneself to swallow whole a moral system elaborated by others, under another sky --- Primo Levi

[/B]

I like the quote - I'm an amoralist myself. (Well, I try. occasionally I spot one, but do my best to rid myself of it)

TwoShedsJackson · 23-07-2001 3:37pm

To get philosophical about it, I don't know with absolute certainty that my chair isn't going to turn into a flesh-eating hamster
It's a very reasonable assumption though, and I'm willing to say that I "know" it, even if that isn't really the case.

True - although you are certainly in the realms of semantics with that one. However, since chairs were first constructed, say 2000 years ago for the sake of argument, not one has ever turned into a flesh-eating hamster and devoured it's occupier. There we have a large body of evidence that they are not prone to do so.

On the other hand since people have formulated organised religions and belief systems, also over say the last 2000 years, there is not one recorded instance of any proof or evidence that God or Heaven exsist. The jury's out on that one, and it always will be as long as humans remain as psychologically frail as they are today.

In a way, it's a matter of faith. I wouldn't describe it as blind faith though, it's based on reasoning, science, and past experience. And if someone truly believes that they communicate with Jesus, are following his laws and doing all that is required to get into heaven, they can "know" that they will get there.

I don't see how it can be based on 'reasoning, science, & experience'? I'm a rational thinker, and my thoughts lead me to the belief that there is no God. Science obviously has a different take on most things to religion, one difference is that science has been able to prove most of it's theories. Experience? As already mentioned, no-one has yet returned to tell us of their experience in heaven, for the obvious reason.

I feel the more arrogant claim of Christians is that their God is absolute good - if good is decided by God, then the term is meaningless - he could define child abuse as good. He could define genocide and infanticide as good, and then do so. Oh, hang on... That said, if good and bad are not defined by God, that doesn't exactly fit in with the all-powerful side...

Good isn't decided by God, it's decided by those who have appointed themselves His people on Earth - thus giving rise to the Crusades, numerous other wars and so on. What they say God approves of changes on a regular basis, did you know that the Catholic Church only pardoned Galileo for saying the Earth was round in 1989?

I like the quote - I'm an amoralist myself. (Well, I try. occasionally I spot one, but do my best to rid myself of it)

I'm assuming you're joking there - I have morals, what I'm trying to do while I have my life, is live it well, to do the minimum amount of harm to others or myself that I can, and to try live a 'good' life. One thing I will never do is try to force my belief in what I'm doing on anyone else, and that is where I and many zealous Christians must depart.

WhiteWashMan · 23-07-2001 3:56pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
[B, and that is where I and many zealous Christians must depart.

[/B]

and a sense of humour....

scutchy · 23-07-2001 4:08pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
On the other hand since people have formulated organised religions and belief systems, also over say the last 2000 years, there is not one recorded instance of any proof or evidence that God or Heaven exsist. The jury's out on that one, and it always will be as long as humans remain as psychologically frail as they are today.

I've always felt that religions were constructed in such a manner as to avoid this problem; the very absence of proof is considered as some to be proof that God has given us free will. Platos' forms are often cited as the existance of a force of absolute good - there's lots of stuff similar to that.

I don't see how it can be based on 'reasoning, science, & experience'? I'm a rational thinker, and my thoughts lead me to the belief that there is no God.

experience: Some talk to Jesus on a regular basis. No point discussing this; they're quite convinced of it.

science: in this case observation, and forming reliable (if not necessarily correct) models of the laws of the universe. The God theory can fit in to science if you twist it enough.

reason: An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence

That's the handy thing about religion - you always have an answer for everything

I'm a weak atheist myself - to clarify my position, I do not believe in god(s). I deny their existance with the same vigour that I deny the earth was farted from the rectum of a giant space elephant; although both theories are possible, and equally so.

Experience? As already mentioned, no-one has yet returned to tell us of their experience in heaven, for the obvious reason.

Tell that to a Christian, and they'll mention Jesus.

Good isn't decided by God, it's decided by those who have appointed themselves His people on Earth - thus giving rise to the Crusades, numerous other wars and so on. What they say God approves of changes on a regular basis, did you know that the Catholic Church only pardoned Galileo for saying the Earth was round in 1989?

Yep - did you know in a current american child abuse case, a cardinal is blaming a 12 year old boy for not contacting the authorities?

And that God approved changes to the Mormon faith for tax reasons?

Actually, just have a look at: http://atheism.about.com/msubmenu17.htm

Unfortunately, this just goes to prove that humans are inherently evil. And if that's true, then jesus is our only salvation. See how the whole thing justifies itself?

I'm assuming you're joking there

Nope - me is a bona fide amoralist. Trying to live your life by a set of rules is ineffective and will only work if you can predict with 100% accuracy every situation you'll ever be in.

Morals come in two types: Those with exceptions and those that rely on your inner nature to make the decision; I just cut out the guilt and the middle man.

Nice talking - I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's fun

TwoShedsJackson · 23-07-2001 4:33pm

science: in this case observation, and forming reliable (if not necessarily correct) models of the laws of the universe. The God theory can fit in to science if you twist it enough.

I don't think so, what about the age and size of the universe, fossils etc. Many Creationists are of the belief that the Earth was made by God in 4004 B.C. Just about anything science has to offer on the matter differs vastly.

I'm a weak atheist myself - to clarify my position, I do not believe in god(s). I deny their existance with the same vigour that I deny the earth was farted from the rectum of a giant space elephant; although both theories are possible, and equally so.

That makes you an atheist, I don't see where the 'weak' comes from.

Tell that to a Christian, and they'll mention Jesus.

The Second Coming that is referred to by Christians has not yet taken place, as far as I know. It remains that there are no direct experiences of heaven.

Unfortunately, this just goes to prove that humans are inherently evil. And if that's true, then jesus is our only salvation. See how the whole thing justifies itself?

It does seem that humans are basically selfish and grasping, with concern for the self over-riding all others. Some people from around 0 AD may have seen this and created a system to try and encourage people to live better. Unfortunately it has been twisted by man through the centuries to serve his own ends.

Morals come in two types: Those with exceptions and those that rely on your inner nature to make the decision; I just cut out the guilt and the middle man.

If you are amoral, would you be willing to live your life on say, the throw of a dice for your actions? As per 'The Dice Man' of course.

JustHalf · 23-07-2001 4:41pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
i miss excelsior. theres a man who wouldnt justify his own faith if his life depended on it....

Perhaps he didn't feel the need to justify it to you; or because justifying it would be impossible within your understanding of him.

Justify your existence, WWM.

scutchy · 23-07-2001 6:22pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
I don't think so, what about the age and size of the universe, fossils etc. Many Creationists are of the belief that the Earth was made by God in 4004 B.C. Just about anything science has to offer on the matter differs vastly.

Hmm... *Scutch starts thinking like a fundie* The universe was made in 7 days, but the word used for 'day' in the original book meant 'period of time' - could've been thousands of years. I know of creationists that will quite happily accept most of evolution - I didn't mean to imply that the God theory ALWAYS fits into science, just that some theists can live with both.

That makes you an atheist, I don't see where the 'weak' comes from.

Atheism comes in two forms, weak (or agnostic) atheism, and strong (or gnostic) atheism.

A strong atheist affirms that there are/is no god(s), whereas a weak atheist also does not believe in god(s), yet does not make the affirmation that they do not exist.

These are widely accepted terms.

I make this distinction as it is generally impossible to prove the non-existance of a god.

The Second Coming that is referred to by Christians has not yet taken place, as far as I know. It remains that there are no direct experiences of heaven.

Two things:

Jesus is God, and was therefore in heaven before he was born.

Jesus rose from the dead after three days.

These are both cornerstones of Christian faith.

It does seem that humans are basically selfish and grasping, with concern for the self over-riding all others.

I wouldn't necessarily agree - many civilisations had attained balance with nature before they were destroyed by Christianity.

As to whether Christianity would change the traits you listed, there's a few articles on Jesus' ethics here: http://atheism.about.com/cs/jesusandmorality/index.htm

If you are amoral, would you be willing to live your life on say, the throw of a dice for your actions? As per 'The Dice Man' of course.

If I did that I would cease to be an amoralist

My moral code would be: The dice is the source of all appropriate actions. I strive to rid myself of all morals, and trust my inner nature. It has served me well thus far...

Karl Hungus · 23-07-2001 7:50pm

I think, from someone has been there, and seen that, done the whole belief thing, and has then seen the light (Or should that be darkness?).
I would think I have some perspective on it.

I also find it extremely sad how truly blind a lot of religious people can be.
Half the time a lot of them won't ever give you a proper answer to a question.
I remember a friend posting an ICQ conversation with a Christian.
Basically the whole thing was him asking a load of questions about faith, and simply getting responses like: "You're going to hell, demonspawn."

I kid ye not...
We all pretty much laughed at it.

I also find it extremely hard to beleive that people could have faith in an organisation that chops and changes it's rules to anything that suits them at the time.

At one time, it was considered blaspheme to translate the Bible from latin, and numerous people were burned at the stake for doing so.

How can people beleive that their god would want something like this, and then turn around and, without any idea of what god would like, suddenly decree it ok to do so.

Ironicaly, there are a couple of Christians on the Cradle Of Filth message board, who would simply go and agree with half of the comments around.
I remember one guy saying Christians are their own worst enemy.

Personaly, I think that ANYONE here is is a religious person should go and read The Satanic Bible.
Why?
Because, once you've read it, you can make a much better judgement on your own beliefs.
But, as many good Christians would say, they "Wouldn't want to corrupt themselves by reading it."
Which I find ironic.
Tell me, would anyone here beleive in something that they fully KNEW that would be fallible if the looked at another viewpoint?
That I cannot understand.

Anyway, here's a nice bit of blaspheme.
I thought it was funny.
Besides, with the ethics of "Faith", being unquestionable "You just have to have faith."
I find being blasphemous fun, that way I can sit back and laugh.

Our father, tyrant in heaven
A liar be thy name
Thy kingdom won't come
Thy will never done
On Earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our guilt and pain
And forgive us for being the way you made us
As we forgive those who won't give their lives up for you
Lead us not into happiness, but deliver us from truth
For thine is the kingdom of misery, ignorance, and guilt forever,
amen.

Also:

the earth was farted from the rectum of a giant space elephant

Would this be one of the four elephants that sit atop the giant turtle A'Tuin, carrying the Discworld?

scutchy · 23-07-2001 9:31pm

Originally posted by AngelWhore:
Would this be one of the four elephants that sit atop the giant turtle A'Tuin, carrying the Discworld?

Little is known about the Great Elephant that spawned the Universe; but we do know that it died shortly afterwards of gastro-enteritic complications, and hence we have no need to live by it's laws or worship it.

It's a religion I plan on founding if some nutter gets in power here and exercises "The state acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God" section of the constitution

Edit: Thanks for the karma Castor

[This message has been edited by scutchy (edited 23-07-2001).]

Supercell · 23-07-2001 11:17pm

I will die, i will be assimilated into the ether...such is the way of things.
In the meantime i post to the ether, random molecules and atoms is all i have to offer...space is a big place.

El Marco · 23-07-2001 11:45pm

The only thing I hate about some religios people is the way they force their beleifs upon you.
I don't beleive in god or ne religion, I dont force my beleif on neone but when I told my freinds I don't beleive in god they went crazy and started thinking of ways to convince me he was real. This really pi$$ed me off cause I got this constant banter for about a week!

I think that religion is just something people have to make them feel whole and not just insecnificant on this small planet in a huge galaxy.

Think of religion as a tree upon a hill. When the rain falls, the leaves of the tree catch the rain and it runs off sheilding the hill. If the tree wasnt there the rain would batter the hill and ware it away to nothing. That is how religion works.

(Insert quote here)

scutchy · 23-07-2001 11:52pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
Wow, nothing like blind faith to enable a Christian to bring a debate on Heaven to a close.

I'm not entirely sure that faith based on meditation, study, prayer and personal experiences can necessarily be termed 'blind'.

I love picking on semantics

(Yes, I'm quite rabidly anti-Christian)

Sliotar · 24-07-2001 1:03am

After all, the whole point of religion is to make it to heaven.

I think the whole point of religion is to explain the un-explainable. Man does'nt like not understanding things. Man did'nt know how the universe was created, so he came up with God to explain it.

I think this has been the case from the dawn of man. Countless tribes have had Gods for everything they did'nt fully understand. They were'nt really sure what fire was, or how it worked, so they would have a God of Fire, theres your answer right there. We now know that fire is a chemical reaction between oxygen, heat and fuel, hence there is no longer a need for a God of Fire.

They had no idea how the crops grew, so they would have a God of the Harvest, you get the idea.

I think this might be the basis of religion, which was then expanded upon. An ancient tribe would understand war, but they would have a God of War because war might be a important part of their society.

Worshiping a supreme being seems to be a common aspect of all religions. It kind of makes sence in a way. Probably the first "supreme being" to be worshipped was the sun. The sun genuinely was repsonsible for everyhing Man had, so it seems like a good idea to worship it, after all if the Sun decides not to rise, everything dies. This was quite clear to ancient people, it was a huge thing in the sky, you could feal its heat, and well it was a huge, it made sence. Only that they did'nt know the sun was just a burning ball of gas.

So why has our society been worshipping "God", when God does not physically exist in our world, and more than likely is a creation of the humand mind? Probably because the idea of God has been institutionalised (dont know if this a real word

)Why was it institutionalised by our society over the centuries? Sometimes because those preaching it thought they were doing the right thing, most of the time for material wealth and gain. A lot of this religion stuff makes sence if you think about it, just not in the way a lot of us would like to think it makes sence.

As for morals, there is substance behind those, well the core ones at least. I reckon it all comes down to the base human emotions of pain/suffering and joy/happiness. Morals are designed to prevent pain/suffering and further joy/happiness. If you have experienced pain, then your gut human instinct should tell you that it is "wrong" to inflict pain/suffering on others, no matter what way you try to think about it. Its one of the most basic, instinctive, fundamental things about humanity. So you gotta have some kind of morals.

One more thing, that theory about the human mind creating its own "heaven", its the most satisfying after life theory I've heard yet. It makes sence because there is so little we know of the human brain and its power. Of course, its still just a theory, but a far more plausable one than the others.

Sorry about long post, but I was kind of talking to myself in a way, hope you dont mind

scutchy · 24-07-2001 8:08am

Originally posted by El Marco:
I don't beleive in god or ne religion, I dont force my beleif on neone but when I told my freinds I don't beleive in god they went crazy and started thinking of ways to convince me he was real.

Welcome to my world

Your first line of defense should be a thorough reading of http://atheism.about.com - it should give you responses to common arguments, and the language to express your ideas.

Just thinking - did this forum ever have a "Prove the Existance of God" thread? It should generate some traffic and be a good read.

WhiteWashMan · 24-07-2001 8:33am

Originally posted by JustHalf:

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
i miss excelsior. theres a man who wouldnt justify his own faith if his life depended on it....

Perhaps he didn't feel the need to justify it to you; or because justifying it would be impossible within your understanding of him.

Justify your existence, WWM.

i think therefor i am....
decart, what a man.

JustHalf · 24-07-2001 10:50am

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
i think therefor i am....
decart, what a man.

That's hardly justifying your existence, merely confirming (to yourself) your existence.

Give me a scientifically valid reason why you exist (besides as a function of a biological process).

JustHalf · 24-07-2001 1:28pm

I think it's quite funny that you seem to have two different meanings for the word "justify": one for when dealing with faith, and one for when dealing with existence. You say "I think, therefore I am" is justification, yet surely this is as clear as "I believe in the Lord, he has saved us"?

I myself am unsure of Excelsior's motives in this matter, but if it was me I wouldn't try to justify my belief system to you. It seems strange that on these boards, if a person says they are Christian and has faith, certain factions move to pester and annoy them. Any logical arguments they have are dismissed by these factions with the pathetic "Ah ya would say that, you're a Christian"... sorry, but that's bigotry - somethings I look down on far more than what you call arrogance.

On the matter of splitting apart the two concepts of existence and faith - I know that, for Excelsior, his faith and existence are VERY much connected. Even on the simplest of levels and the simplest of examples, death cannot be seperated from existence - and as Excelsior's *faith* tells him that his *existence* continues beyond that point, surely faith can also not be seperated?

What though, if it was easy to justify your faith? From the bigotry seen on the boards (I must add only by some people, not by all) to Christians, any attempt to justify it would be seen as preaching.

It's a lose-lose situation, so why bother trying? There is less anger and hurt caused by not doing so.

In my opinion, this is the right decision.

WhiteWashMan · 24-07-2001 1:50pm

Originally posted by JustHalf:
I think it's quite funny that you seem to have two different meanings for the word "justify": one for when dealing with faith, and one for when dealing with existence. You say "I think, therefore I am" is justification, yet surely this is as clear as "I believe in the Lord, he has saved us"?

i dont have two different meanings at all.
its two different issues.
i can prove im here. he cant prove his god.

Originally posted by JustHalf:

I myself am unsure of Excelsior's motives in this matter, but if it was me I wouldn't try to justify my belief system to you. It seems strange that on these boards, if a person says they are Christian and has faith, certain factions move to pester and annoy them. Any logical arguments they have are dismissed by these factions with the pathetic "Ah ya would say that, you're a Christian"... sorry, but that's bigotry - somethings I look down on far more than what you call arrogance.

B]

i dont like the fact that some people (excelsior) have claimed all sorts about the lord god almighty on high, and yet if you ask about it, then he immediately leaves the debate on the grounds that people take the **** out of his faith. fine, if youre not going to make valid points then whats the point in entering into a debate?
i dont hink i mentioned 'you would say that, youre a christian anywhere? some other post i think? besides, you cant have a logical argument about faith. after all, that is the nature of faith...
as for bigotry, just because i challenge someone doesnt make me a bigot. and i cant remember calling anyone arrogant....

Originally posted by JustHalf:

On the matter of splitting apart the two concepts of existence and faith - I know that, for Excelsior, his faith and existence are VERY much connected. Even on the simplest of levels and the simplest of examples, death cannot be seperated from existence - and as Excelsior's *faith* tells him that his *existence* continues beyond that point, surely faith can also not be seperated?
.

no. you brought my existance into it. you asked me to prove my existance. i never asked excelsior to prove his. you are arguing your own points here. i merely said i think therefor i am to prove my own existance. as for excelsior, i asked him to justify his faith. the two do not appear connected in any way by that argument.
besides, you can belive your existance will continue, but i think we will all have to wait and see wont we, because i cant see any reason for any of it to be proved to us right now. unless there is some very enlightened person out there who is keeping quiet about the whole afair. i hope hes having a good laugh.

Originally posted by JustHalf:

What though, if it was easy to justify your faith? From the bigotry seen on the boards (I must add only by some people, not by all) to Christians, any attempt to justify it would be seen as preaching.
.

again you throw the word bigotry about. is this the word you use when you cant think up a decent argument. someone took my karma away, they must be a bigot, someone argued with someone else, they must be a bigot, hes got a bigger car, he must be a bigot.
tell me where the bigotry is?
being asked to show why is an invitatio to tell, and is not seen as preaching.
besides, if you dont listen, its falling on deaf ears anyway. if it was easy to justify faith, then id be delighted to hear about it sometime.

Originally posted by JustHalf:
It's a lose-lose situation, so why bother trying? There is less anger and hurt caused by not doing so.

In my opinion, this is the right decision.

hmmm, a lose-lose situation?
why so?
im glad you would like a nice PC board where we can all live like little bunnies and be nice and cuddly, however, i belive this forum is designed for debate and exchange of ideas.
its nice that feel compelled to defend excelsior and his faith. but at the end of the day, i was using excelsior as an example of someone who runs a mile when confronted with any number of reasons why i dont belive in faith or a god. i have no problems with people who are religious. they can worship daisys for all i care and good luck to them.
if people have a belief that makes them happy, then i say go girl.
i hope i havent hit a little nerve with you just-half, you always seem to take my point of views to the bone. maybe you just think im not a nice person, and its true, ive never won an award for being nice. but im not that bad, however, i tend not to believe in anything that is not sustantial. science is my religion.
but thanks for the opinion...

Your Imps Demand Cable...

JustHalf · 24-07-2001 3:50pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
i dont have two different meanings at all.
its two different issues.
i can prove im here. he cant prove his god.

But you said JUSTIFY... not prove.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
as for bigotry, just because i challenge someone doesnt make me a bigot. and i cant remember calling anyone arrogant....

I apologise for saying you called it arrogance... it was Castor Troy. My bad.

That said, when did I call *you* a bigot? I've seen Excelsior, Neuro-Praxis and Androphobic all being treated unfairly by some people on the boards, just because they were Christian - by bigots. If you read the thread "Rascism Nonsense" I think you will see my position on the issue you raised - and I think you're implying I do that.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
no. you brought my existance into it. you asked me to prove my existance. i never asked excelsior to prove his. you are arguing your own points here. i merely said i think therefor i am to prove my own existance. as for excelsior, i asked him to justify his faith. the two do not appear connected in any way by that argument.

Yes, I'm arguing my points. My point is that, for Excelsior, faith and existence are tightly linked (henceforth known as yada yada). I asked you to justify your existence, as to me it seemed to be as stupid a question as asking someone to justify their faith - and not only that, but for Excelsior (yada yada). You then tried to split them, which doesn't work, because for Excelsior (yada yada).

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
unless there is some very enlightened person out there who is keeping quiet about the whole afair. i hope hes having a good laugh.

Yeah, it's fuppin' hilarious.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
again you throw the word bigotry about. is this the word you use when you cant think up a decent argument. someone took my karma away, they must be a bigot, someone argued with someone else, they must be a bigot, hes got a bigger car, he must be a bigot.

Read the "Rascism Nonsense" thread.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
tell me where the bigotry is?

All around.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
being asked to show why is an invitatio to tell, and is not seen as preaching.

But being TOLD to tell why is not an invitation to tell. And when you can't open your mouth for fear of crap, then...

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
besides, if you dont listen, its falling on deaf ears anyway. if it was easy to justify faith, then id be delighted to hear about it sometime.

The point is, it's almost impossible; and you called Excelsior a "bible-basher" and "muppet" (terms of derision), seemingly because he couldn't justify his faith. It seems a bit odd.

How many of you "believers" think they will get to heaven?

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