IRA and the Nothern Bank Robbery

ArthurDent

Hugh Orde says IRA responsible

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0107/belfast.html


so how will this affect the peace process.
do we believe Martin McGuinness when he says IRA not responsible - I hope for his sake this is not another Gerry McCabe type denial

MrPudding

Great. Just what the peace process needs. If they are responsible how could they be so stupid and selfish.

Will Hugh be providing details of why be blames the PIRA?

MrP

marcowil

ArthurDent wrote:

Hugh Orde says IRA responsible

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0107/belfast.html


so how will this affect the peace process.
do we believe Martin McGuinness when he says IRA not responsible - I hope for his sake this is not another Gerry McCabe type denial

I would hazard a guess that they could claim this was not sanctioned by the IRA leadership as a whole but was carried out by brigades in Belfast acting on their own.

I hope, in the long-term, it does not stop a deal being done but I think we can forget about any breakthrough this side of the elections.

ArthurDent

From Sinn Fein press release

http://sinnfein.ie/news/detail/8006

Speaking on the Today programme on BBC Radio this morning Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness MP revealed that in the aftermath of the robbery on the Northern Bank in Belfast he had spoken to the IRA about this and was told that it was not involved.

Speaking in Belfast this morning Mr. McGuinness reiterated his view that "there are clearly elements within the British system and unionism intent on wrecking the peace process and of using the robbery in Belfast as a pretext for this. They must not be allowed to succeed."


and from his interview on News at One RTE - Martin McGuinness very firm on denial and says PNSI demonising IRA.

I sure hope no evidence is produced, either Martin McGuinness is very certain of his facts or playing for very high stakes here.

pork99

They've taken us all, not just the DUP and the British Govt., for mugs.

It makes sense though, the money from America isn't as forthcoming as it used to be. There was a generation of Irish-Americans (basically people from the losing side in the Civil war and their offspring, who emigrated to the States in the 1920s) who would give the Provos as much money as they wanted but that source of income has been drying up steadily over the last 20 years as those generations died out. Also terrorism has got a bit of a bad name in the US over the last few years for some reason. So what's the alternative?.....

Villain

Hugh Orde shoule have kept his trap shut until he had evidence. I am certain that this robbery was NOT sanctioned by the army council. Hugh Orde has just handed Ian Paisley enough ammunition to bring the peace process to a total stand still. My god I would have thought Blair would have had some control over someone in his position making such statements.Bye Bye Peace process, hello violence.

mr_angry

He's entitled to his opinion, but I fail to see any evidence that confirms such an opinion. And to call a press conference and declare such a suspicion with no evidence is highly irresponsible of him, and an abuse of his position.

I'm no lover of the provos, but I'd like to see the peace process succeed, and he has severely damaged the chances of that happenning.

Horeb

What can I say mmmmmmmmmm well there we go the provo's at it again..

Peace Process Nil
Provos 22Million


As for Martin McG, well I really believe what he say's he is so Honest, as maybe Saddam.

In a way I am glad it clearly shows that the provo's and in general the republican leadership and their cronies are not be trusted !

ballooba

MrPudding wrote:

Great. Just what the peace process needs. If they are responsible how could they be so stupid and selfish.

Will Hugh be providing details of why be blames the PIRA?

MrP

Redundancy packages?

Villain

Horeb-Security wrote:

What can I say mmmmmmmmmm well there we go the provo's at it again..

Peace Process Nil
Provos 22Million


As for Martin McG, well I really believe what he say's he is so Honest, as maybe Saddam.

In a way I am glad it clearly shows that the provo's and in general the republican leadership and their cronies are not be trusted !

Great Post!! :rolleyes:


One word ........... Proof.
I thought people were Innocent until proven Guilty??

Oh sorry fogot that doesn't apply if your a Nationalist in Northern Ireland.

MrPudding

I know it is only his opinion but I would like to see a bit of evidence. I am no fan of the provies but I would hate to see the peace process fail because of 1 mans opinion. Did he not mention someting last year about there being "an anti peace process element" in the PSNI? Would it be beyond the realms of possibility that some of this may be made up?

MrP

mr_angry

Horeb-Security wrote:

In a way I am glad it clearly shows that the provo's and in general the republican leadership and their cronies are not be trusted !

If by clearly you mean clear-as-mud, then yes.

Genghis

I never believed that the Army Council of the IRA sanctioned this robbery, I actually think that they are 'struggling for peace'. That is not to say that certain sections of the IRA could have acted independently to pull this off. In either case, Mr Orde making comments that attribute blame without evidence is unprofessional, damaging and does nothing to present the PSNI as being an organisation that does not discriminate against one of the communities it serves.

I would have to say that the IRA leadership and people like Martin McGuinness probably have a good idea of who (individually) was involved. What are they going to do? Turn them over to a police force they don't trust, or as yet officially recognise? Sanction some form of punishment, and risk a further split in republicanism and leave themselves open to 'punishment beating activity' allegations?

Kingsize

well the robbers were dressed in police uniforms...................

Hobbes

Evidence.. put up or shut up.

Beyond that, if it was IRA members and it wasn't sanctioned then it is up to the IRA to shop them into the reconised police authority in NI.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Hugh Orde shoule have kept his trap shut until he had evidence. I am certain that this robbery was NOT sanctioned by the army council.

Are you suggesting that it was possibly an IRA unit acting on their own?

My god I would have thought Blair would have had some control over someone in his position making such statements.

My God, I would have thought the IRA would have had some control over people making such robberies, given that if they are republicans working outside of p'o' neils sanction they also have access to guns and explosives.

Bye Bye Peace process, hello violence.

By whom? The IRA? you do realise that if they go back to violence, SF's vote will go to tatters...
As regards the robbery, theres no way that should be shoved under the carpet.
If the IRA (sanctioned or not which is really immaterial as those that sanction are not doing it transparently and therefore are irrelevant to the seriousness of who is involved in the crime) are involved in cosy criminality, any deal should be conditional on it stopping.

At this rate the Adare killers can sit back, their 5 star accomadation is safe for another while.

Nuttzz

Is it me or wasnt the whole Jerry McCabe Murder / Attempted robbery carried out by IRA members without Army council sanction? What makes you think that this isnt any different.

Lets be honest only the provos have the skill to pull off a stunt like this and cover their tracks effectively, you cant expect the Johnny Adair Unionist types to have the brains to do this.

Boggle

Regardless of your opinion of the IRA and whether you think they did the crime you do have to admit that Horde has put the peace process in jeopardy with his statements.

It'd be one thing if you had proof but, in this case, at best he has a hunch, at worst he has a vendetta....

Villain

Earthman wrote:

Are you suggesting that it was possibly an IRA unit acting on their own?

Of course it's possible, but sher anything is possible.

Earthman wrote:

My God, I would have thought the IRA would have had some control over people making such robberies, given that if they are republicans working outside of p'o' neils sanction they also have access to guns and explosives.

Comparing the IRA organisation to that of the British Justice System interesting!!

Eathman, anyone that has been following the events of the last few months, knows that certain members of the IRA are not happy with the organisation disarming.

Earthman wrote:

By whom? The IRA? you do realise that if they go back to violence, SF's vote will go to tatters...
As regards the robbery, theres no way that should be shoved under the carpet.
If the IRA (sanctioned or not which is really immaterial as those that sanction are not doing it transparently and therefore are irrelevant to the seriousness of who is involved in the crime) are involved in cosy criminality, any deal should be conditional on it stopping.

At this rate the Adare killers can sit back, their 5 star accomadation is safe for another while.

Without a peace process Violence will occur thats just common sense Earthman.

Boggle wrote:

Regardless of your opinion of the IRA and whether you think they did the crime you do have to admit that Horde has put the peace process in jeopardy with his statements.

It'd be one thing if you had proof but, in this case, at best he has a hunch, at worst he has a vendetta....

Well said.

mike65

ArthurDent wrote:

From Sinn Fein press release

and from his interview on News at One RTE - Martin McGuinness very firm on denial and says PNSI demonising IRA.

I sure hope no evidence is produced, either Martin McGuinness is very certain of his facts or playing for very high stakes here.

That thought struck me strongly. Never say never. Ever. He really should have left open the door marked "retirement fund chancers" so leave him room to manoveour.

I see the Northern Bank have finally taken the decision to withdraw all the sequenced local notes which will leave about 5 mill in booty.

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

oscarBravo

Who's to say he doesn't have evidence? It's not inconceivable that he does have evidence, but that he's not at liberty to disclose it for operational reasons.

mr_angry

Then whats the point of him opening his big mouth in the first place???

oscarBravo

If the provos were involved, it impacts materially on the peace process.

dregin

Did he actually say he had evidence to backup the claim? I wouldn't think he'd do something like this without some solid evidence to go on. It's a petty the unionists have been so quick to believe the IRA were envolved before a trial has proven it so. Maybe they've access to information that we don't, maybe they trust Hugh Orde's judgement.

It's a sad day.

mr_angry

mr_angry wrote:

Then whats the point of him opening his big mouth in the first place???

I'll take a guess and say the DUP have plenty of contacts in the PSNI privy to sensitive information and that they were going to do a leak to the papers.
He jumped their gun.

It changes little in that case as the guys that have to go into government with SF would have used this unofficially(or a newspaper leak) as an excuse not to anyway and probably dreamed up any excuse in the book to further delay the process.

Nuttzz

lol
http://www.portadownnews.com/

TomF

If it was the Provisional IRA (a big "if", in my opinion) I have to wonder what was the reason for the robbery. Was it to get pension money for the activists who are to be retired under the provisions of the PP? Or is it to get campaign funds for the next elections?

true

Gerry Adams says he was not in the IRA and everyone knows he was.
The IRA were caught out so often, from Adare to Columbia.
Gerry Adams says the IRA was not involved in the robbery and who believes him ?

Hugh Orde said the police do have evidence pointing in a certain direction, but they are not at liberty to disclose this information , at least not yet. That is the right of any police force.

Another interesting little aside : if you look up any of the extreme republican websites / discussion boards over the last few weeks you have all of the self proclaimed provo sympathisers bragging about " their " robbery.

Cork

true wrote:

The IRA were caught out so often, from Adare to Columbia.
Gerry Adams says the IRA was not involved in the robbery and who believes him ?

The IRA has debased the Good Friday Agreement. It is time and Admas and his party got off the fence and faced up to the IRA.

I think Michael McDowell brought the continued activity of the IRA to our attention. He is not afraid to show us the continued criminality of the IRA.

The Columbia 3 are now fugitives. Hard decisions now have to be made by SF. If the shirk decisions - then they need to be excluded from democratic politics and section 31 should be re-introduced.

The policy of the armalite and ballot box is not a policy acceptable to democrats.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

then they need to be excluded from democratic politics and section 31 should be re-introduced.

.

lol

How democratic of you

Cork

No member of the IRA can be a criminal, Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams claimed today.

Link

The Good Friday agreement has been trashed because of criminality.

Sand

How democratic of you

And having a terrorist group/organised crime syndicate under the table makes you....democratic?

A Dub in Glasgo

So, in order to show how democratic you are, you would implement an exclusion of the views of hundreds of thousands of people who exercised their democratic right to vote. You would also deny the freedom of speech to those hundreds of thousands people.

Yeah, very democratic of you.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You would also deny the freedom of speech to those hundreds of thousands people.

Yeah, very democratic of you.

There is nothing democratic about the policy of the armalite and the ballot box.

No member of the IRA can be a criminal, Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams claimed today.

Punishment beatings?

Sand

So, in order to show how democratic you are, you would implement an exclusion of the views of hundreds of thousands of people who exercised their democratic right to vote. You would also deny the freedom of speech to those hundreds of thousands people.

If their view is they want to support a party that leaves terrorism/organised crime as an option then honestly - **** them and their ****ing warped views

Honestly, if it is the IRA that is shown to be have committed this crime then can you honestly say that Sinn Fein given their "links" :rolleyes: with the IRA can be taken seriously when commenting on say tax evasion or street crime? I actually feel sorry for Sinn Fein supporters because for as long as the IRA is part of their baggage I and others can beat them up on any topic where SF trys to take the high moral ground.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if it was the IRA - who else has access to the manpower, the weapons, the organisational and intelligence capability to carry out such an act in Northern Ireland, let alone the money laundering network to dispose of such an immense amount of cash quickly? With the planning that went into it they cant have failed to recognise the need to get rid of the notes quickly. And the tactic of kidnapping families to terrorise a husband/father into carrying out a task is an old IRA favourite - several bombs were delivered to their targets by the fathers of children held captive by brave patriotic IRA men threatening to murder wives and children - the evil mother****ers. Drug dealers in the North cant make a penny without giving a cut to the IRA. Are we supposed to believe theres some independant crime syndicate in the North thats developed the skills and sheer ruthlessness to carry out this act but has somehow remained hidden until now? The loyalists you might say, but theyve never been really able to carry out anything as sophisticated in scope or scale as the IRA has.

Orde might hasnt said the IRA did do it, hes said theyre the prime suspects which is what the dogs on the street know ffs. As for the argument Blair should have put political pressure on him to silence him - thats ridiculous. Its the fear of calling SF/IRA on their misdemeanors that has led to this state of affairs where SF/IRA hold both governments and their peoples in utter contempt. When SF/IRA men were found running an intelligence operation/apparent punishment squad against Dail TDs and Dublin crime figures everyone was terrified to say anything to Adams in case he walked from the deal, or Paisley got ammo to shoot them down. Well, the deal collapsed anyway like everyone knew it would when you consider the unreformed nature of the participants and the lesson Adams got was he and his terrorist buddies could brazen out just about anything.

And the peace process will continue to founder for as long as we let SF/IRA believe they can join government and yet not have to suffer consequences for engaging in terrorist/crinimal behaviour - not because we dont let them think they can have their cake and eat it.

Cork

Sand wrote:

And the peace process will continue to founder for as long as we let SF/IRA believe they can join government and yet not have to suffer consequences for engaging in terrorist/crinimal behaviour - not because we dont let them think they can have their cake and eat it.

I think Sand - you have hit the nail on the head.

I think SF has got to make up its mind. It is ironic that SF is now looking for evidence that the IRA were involved in this bank robbery. But what evidence do the IRA look for in their kangaroo courts?

Despite the IMC report and evidence of IRA activity around Dublin Port - deniels of IRA activity don't cut much ice.

Years after we Good Friday Agreement - It is under threat from an illegal organisation that still has access to weapons.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Without a peace process Violence will occur thats just common sense Earthman.

I asked by whom?
Sounds like you take it as read that "someone" who doesn't get what they want by political means will return to violence.
Is that someone the IRA?
Do you seriously think that Adams/McGuinness would risk the street cred that they gained over the last few years by allowing that to happen?
I categorically doubt it, just as I doubt that the "fierce" IRA is so loose as to not know what elements within it are doing.
Going on peoples experiences in the Public domain,I'd say to disobey orders from the top of the IRA would be a perilous decision...


I'll repeat, the IRA and by extension SF are getting the tough time that they get because , the IRA want jam on both sides of the bread.
They seem to think they can continue criminality and expect not to be challenged on it.
WAR is not an option for them anymore, as the bridge SF has built with southern voters would be burned.
The bridge is a single lane carriageway, it would take the end of criminality and in my view a softening of their more left of left wing policies for the second lane to be opened on that bridge...

AmenToThat

Cork wrote:

There is nothing democratic about the policy of the armalite and the ballot box.



Punishment beatings?

And by reintroducing section 31 you believe the peoples faith democracy will be restored?
You will have to explain that one to me.

As for the robbery, Im sure it was the provos but thats not the point!
I have no evidence it was them.............neither it would seem have the PSNI/RUC.
This will do nothing to restore the confidence of many nationalist/republicans that the PSNI/RUC have changed, its smells of vendetta to me.
I believe todays news conference may in the long run have done more to harm the peace process than the actual bank robbery and as suggested earlier Im sure the DUP had a major part to play in todays statement as they will have encouraged their many supporters within all sections of the Northern establishment that this would be a perfect tool for wrangling out of power sharing with nationalists/republicans.

true

Lets be fair : the PSNI did say they have evidence which points in a certain direction : however it would compromise the investigation at this stage to disclose that evidence. That is the right of every police service in the world.

The real damage to the peace process has come from certain sections of society not "being seen " to decommission their weapons OR offer proof that the weapons / explosives have been decommissioned. The numerous serious "crimes" commited by the paramilitaries, plus a question mark over a certain bird watching expedition to a FARC controlled area in Columbia, has not helped.

elivsvonchiaing

Earthman wrote:

I asked by whom?
Sounds like you take it as read that "someone" who doesn't get what they want by political means will return to violence.
Is that someone the IRA?

This sounds like the RIRA tbh! Think what was intended!

Earthman wrote:

Do you seriously think that Adams/McGuinness would risk the street cred that they gained over the last few years by allowing that to happen?
I categorically doubt it, just as I doubt that the "fierce" IRA is so loose as to not know what elements within it are doing.

They have no control over these bastards - QED!

Earthman wrote:

Going on peoples experiences in the Public domainI'd say to disobey orders from the top of the IRA would be a perilous decision...

Perilous, if they could be identified

Earthman wrote:

I'll repeat, the IRA and by extension SF are getting the tough time that they get because , the IRA want jam on both sides of the bread.
They seem to think they can continue criminality and expect not to be challenged on it.

Assuming they can identify who the RIRA bastards are - they need very little evidence - that's how they operate!

Earthman wrote:

WAR is not an option for them anymore, as the bridge SF has built with southern voters would be burned.
The bridge is a single lane carriageway, it would take the end of criminality and in my view a softening of their more left of left wing policies for the second lane to be opened on that bridge...

Shudders! Think we need a new nationalist party here tbh... (The damage has been done - think this is the only way - doesn't have to be a splinter group of Sinn Feinn imho)

FTA69

Nuttzz wrote:

Is it me or wasnt the whole Jerry McCabe Murder / Attempted robbery carried out by IRA members without Army council sanction? What makes you think that this isnt any different.

Lets be honest only the provos have the skill to pull off a stunt like this and cover their tracks effectively, you cant expect the Johnny Adair Unionist types to have the brains to do this.

The Adare robbery was a routine operation in a time when the IRA was off ceasefire, it was a completely different time politically both for Republicanism and the country in general. 7 years since the resumption of the Cessation it is highly impractical that the IRA would pull off such an operation. All the money in the world would not be worth the political ramifications to be had if the IRA were proved responsible.

As regards "skill", the great train robbery in England was undertaken by small-time criminals with no serious reputation at all. Stranger things have happened, besides, such organisations as the INLA and UVF are not bunglers.

FTA69

Sand wrote:

Drug dealers in the North cant make a penny without giving a cut to the IRA.

Says who? The pigs? The Sunday Independent? MI5?

The IRA's record on drugs speaks for itself ie Martin Foley, Mickey Mooney, PJ Judge as well as the Republican involvement in COCAD and the CPAD. Republicans are not nor ever have been involved in the drug trade in this country, maybe if you had experience on the subject you would be better positioned to comment on it, however considering you don't I suggest you stop regurgitating rubbish to suit your agenda.

FTA69

Cork wrote:

I think Sand - you have hit the nail on the head.

I think SF has got to make up its mind. It is ironic that SF is now looking for evidence that the IRA were involved in this bank robbery. But what evidence do the IRA look for in their kangaroo courts?

Despite the IMC report and evidence of IRA activity around Dublin Port - deniels of IRA activity don't cut much ice.

Years after we Good Friday Agreement - It is under threat from an illegal organisation that still has access to weapons.

Sinn Féin hasn't conducted a "kangaroo court" since about 1923, the fact which you are failing to understand is that the IRA and Sinn Féin are seperate organisations. They take their own decisions through their own command structure and Sinn Féin also makes its own decisions. Whether the IRA decides to carry out a punishment attack on a death rider or drug dealer is not a decision for Sinn Féin and as such is not their responsibility.

As regards allegations, what "evidence" has there been of port activities Cork? By that I mean evidence, not more links to more allegations on behalf of MocDowell etc. The IMC has also failed to produce any meaningful evidence to substantiate their ludicrous claims.

Finally, the GFA is under more threat from the likes of Paisley and rejectionist unionists as well as brit securocrats than it is from Republicans.

arcadegame2004

I suspect that it was the IRA but I can't be certain. Remember what happened before when they arrested people over the supposed-IRA spyring in Stormont and then the trials collapsed. I have a certain degree of distrust of today's announcement, but on balance I think the IRA, or members thereof, carried out this criminal act against society.

Nevyn

Well it does look like they were making sure that they had enough money to go shopping for new guns of the need arose after they supossedly put thiers beyond use.

FTA69

There is no "supposedness" regarding IRA decommissioning, it took place three times and was verified independently. Your comment regarding the bank robbery is irrelevant really considering there is no proof that the IRA carried it out.

David Office

ArthurDent wrote:

From Sinn Fein press release

http://sinnfein.ie/news/detail/8006

Speaking on the Today programme on BBC Radio this morning Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness MP revealed that in the aftermath of the robbery on the Northern Bank in Belfast he had spoken to the IRA about this and was told that it was not involved.

Speaking in Belfast this morning Mr. McGuinness reiterated his view that "there are clearly elements within the British system and unionism intent on wrecking the peace process and of using the robbery in Belfast as a pretext for this. They must not be allowed to succeed."

If Martin McGuinness stated that the IRA were not involved - then that statement must be accurate - He should know- because it is a well known fact that he in number two in the IRA Council and Mr Adams (despite his denials) is number three.
Unfortunately I feel he is lying through his teeth once again.

The Unionists may be intent on "wrecking the peace process" however Mr McGuinness and his cohorts are not helping much either!!! :mad:

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

luckat

I've had houses robbed three times and bikes stolen twice; in all five cases the Guards assured me "Oh, we know who did it all right."

Unfortunately, I'm still waiting to get any of my stuff back, all these years later.

Maybe the IRA did the robbery, maybe they didn't. When the police have the evidence to *prove who did the robbery*, then they should come out, not with a statement, but with a prosecution.

Incidentally, True, what are all these extremist republican websites and bulletin boards where everyone's boasting that their lads did the great deed? Web addresses?

A Dub in Glasgo

luckat wrote:

Incidentally, True, what are all these extremist republican websites and bulletin boards where everyone's boasting that their lads did the great deed? Web addresses?

http://www.werobbedthenib.ie

http://www.itwasus.ie

http://www.weshaftedthepeaceprocessbyrobbingthebank.ie