Racism in Britain

DadaKopf

Robin Cook last week made a public address, saying that Britishness was not anything to do with purity of Anglo-Saxon roots and the Counservative idea of 'Britishness' was a misnomer. Britain has always been a multicultural island and recent history has proven it - Britishness is, in essence, a multiethnic and pluralist society.

His comments has sparked a row in the Conservative party, William Hague tried to get his members to sign an anti-racism pledge but luminaries like Michael Portillo has refused to sign it.

I've always considered the former opinion, agreeing with Robin Cook (despite Britain historically being far from tolerant) but it begs a couple of questions:

1) For the British people on here also, what does anyone consider to be 'Britishness'?

2) What is Irishness and should Irish society follow the pluralist model Britain and Holland, for example, has pioneered?

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"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Paladin

I dont think those members of the conservative are supporting racism, rather they are just indignant that the influx of refugees and foreign nationals is putting a large weight on the british budget.

amp

Or more correctly, they're trying to feed off the public perception that it is.

The as ever reliable classic:
"Them foreigners is what is causing all the problems, not our own incompetence"

The Conservative party is a complete joke at the moment.

Irishness for me is drinking, humour, being laid back and enjoying life. I very strongly believe that Ireland should not put up a wall to stop the natural movement of people. We need a more diverse society.

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Lunacy Abounds! GLminesweeper RO><ORS!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Magwitch

Britishness is hard to define as the modern interpretation the racists try to use is a manufactured facade produced only in the latter part of the 18th century. "Britian" itself as a national identity includes Scots and Welsh, though "Britishness" seems to be the preserve of the English.

It would be a mistake to compare the British identity with the Irish one as the Irish are an actual race (geal) like the Scots. There has not been a "British race" since the Celts. Though our identity is not routed deeply in that it does identify us as seperate. "British identity" has more to do with Empire, hence I think the current growing perception in the UK that British is more a shared ideal than a race, which is probubly true. It also leads to the interesting question of the Irish with in the concept of "British", a debate that could not possibly be broached upon in a Nation as young as ours. But after years of conquest and immagration....

Clintons Cat

Michael Portillo is Half Spanish so his refusal to sign the doccument is on personal grounds,his veiw is who the hell should tell him what he can or cannot say. I understand his point of veiw. Those who sign it and then say "i would love to tell you what i think but i cant cause i signed this doccument" are worse than those who refuse to sign it point blank.
The tory press have been stiring up xenophobia in a directed fashion for about four years now,it is no secret that conservitive central office targeted immigration policy as a "perceived area of labour policy weakness".central office has been providing the press with plenty of spin.
The coup d'etat has been making the cognative link between "Bogus/illeagal" And "Asylum Seekers".They have circumnavigated race hate laws by not targetting one nationality or ethnic group in particular,though their conduct goes against the spirit if not the letter of the law.Not one story will go by without reference to Albanian Gypsies,Kosovo Muslims or Iranians,usually accompanied by a picture of a Romanian Gypsy Woman begging on the streets.
It is not suprising that a few Senile tory biggots have thought it safe to express the Racial Blood Purity Ethic.
"It must be a crisis cause if it wasnt it wouldnt be in the papers"

Magwitch

I agree Cat but would would not underestimate Millbank house in this. By polorising this issue only the Tories would be further seriously split but also tarnished. This is the first goal.

the second is Acceptence of this Pluralist Britian ideal by those in the population who do not wishing to be branded or associated with "racists" is made by comming down on one side of the arguement. This of course will lead to a softening of attitudes towards Europe once they have accepted which camp they are in (giving the other camp is divided and idiologically weird). Clever politics at play with a long term agenda I think.

Excelsior

I would like to see Ireland become as pluralist as it can possibly be. Let in as many refugees as we can afford to (meaning the largest number, not as an excuse to limit numbers at say, 67) and then really work to help them integrate into Irish society while maintaining their identity.
In the long term I would envision this being a source of economic renewal, and more importantly linguistic and cultural developments.

Ideally I would like to see concepts of statehood devolving away. I amn't proud of something I didn't work to achieve, namely my nationality. I'd kind of side here with the likes of Robert Kaplan. Nationality will become so archaic in our lifetime with the unravelling of the borders created for the convienience of imperialism that we will certainly be better without it. I can see no end to the cycle of war in Central and Eastern Africa. Central America, particuarly Mexico, faces some tough nationality and soverignity questions and if the CIS doesn't collapse in our lifetimes I'll buy you all a drink on the other side.
In light of this I think that concepts of "Britishness" and concepts of "Irishness" will become icreasingly irrelevant.

Besides it isn't much of a leap from having a pluralist Ireland (or Britain) to having a pluralist society (Full-stop).


Edited for punctuation

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My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 23-04-2001).]

Greenbean

"It would be a mistake to compare the British identity with the Irish one as the Irish are an actual race (geal) like the Scots. There has not been a "British race" since the Celts." In the short term this may be true but in the long term no country bears the right to say its a unique or in any way pure race. Europe; England, Ireland has always been a mixture of races.

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Magwitch:
I agree Cat but would would not underestimate Millbank house in this. By polorising this issue only the Tories would be further seriously split but also tarnished. This is the first goal.

the second is Acceptence of this Pluralist Britian ideal by those in the population who do not wishing to be branded or associated with "racists" is made by comming down on one side of the arguement. This of course will lead to a softening of attitudes towards Europe once they have accepted which camp they are in (giving the other camp is divided and idiologically weird). Clever politics at play with a long term agenda I think.</font>

I have no great affection for the Labour Party,they were quite happy not to tackle the press over their rascism for the last 4 years,Now they need the Immigrant vote they put out the Mandatory "lets be nice to immigrants" speach.
The fact is that a couple of old time Enoch Powell supporters rolled out of the monday club cut to the eyeballs and Made Robin Cook look like Martin Luther King.
All countries need imigrants to do the low paid menial and dangerous jobs that no one in their right mind wants to do.
It used to be the irish,then the west indians,then the Asians,now its the turn of phillapeano nurses and albanian builders and east european field workers.
What really makes me laugh/mad/cry is when white friends/aquaintances of mine start going off on one about how assulum seekers are spongers and parasites,only here to steal the jobs and houses from ordinary people.Exactly the same fu<kwit propaganda that used to be leveled against us PAKI BA$TARDS back in the late seventies and early eighties.
Still somethings never change...
<SIGH>

Good luck Excelsior I feel you may need it.

Shinji

I don't believe that Ireland should be erecting barriers to the natural movement of people.

I do, however, believe that the Irish have every right to ask that if people wish to live in their country, they should respect the culture and lifestyle of the people there.

One of the big problems the UK has, political correctness aside, is that many people from different cultures make no attempt to integrate into British society - bringing their own unique type of culture, but mixing it with what already exists there. Instead you get ghettoes of culture, and naturally tension exists between them.

As an Irish person living in England, I'm prepared to meet the culture of the people here halfway. I would expect the same of an English person moving to Ireland - or any other culture, no matter how diverse or different. The whole point of a melting pot of cultures is that they should mix, not co-exist in an uneasy standoff.

Magwitch

Firstly I do not define Irish as a "pure" race. But if anyone would like to compare us closley to anyone else then go ahead, but I like us the way we are. Our problems and faults are at least ours.

Secondly, I agree with Excelsior, but do not think that we will become a plural nation through an open immigration policy. No Way. Certainly has not happened in England. I do not, nor have I ever ruled an empire or owned a slave so I do not buy into the whole white guilt thing, that seems to only exist for president Mugabe to use for his own ends and people like him (racists, lets say it). Many of these refugees, even eastern European come from countries where the rights of woman and minorities are abused rampantly. There is to my mind nothing more sickening than seeing the "liberals" who stand by refugees melt away when issues like female circumcision, multiple wifes and woman rights come to the fore as "cultural issues" or "rights".

I agree with Ireland accepting all legitimate refugees and a generous quota of non-EU people every year. But what is maddening is that the so-called refugee council insists that everyone should be allowed to come and claim asylum regardleess of criteria. How can this be right?

Another question, how long would it take you to be meeting government ministers and issueing public statements to press conferances if you went to another country. Who are these people in the refugee council? Apart from of course lime-light loving liberals from D4? In a few statements they have managed to worsen the lot of real refugees in this country on a ploicy level by talking utter drivel! And alienating any support they may get form Joe public. The only solution is that refugees set up their own representitive body exclusive of Irish wannabe moral crusaders.

Greenbean

People in real aid fine, people who are prepared to work in ireland, fine. People who are economic emmigrants looking for somewhere with a good social system to abuse, fVck off. People already in ireland not working and abusing the social system, fVck off. The world is becoming globalised; the idea of country or nation is fast diminishing. There is no resolution. Put it like this, what if the solar system had all planets inhabinated - what matter would it be the 100's of divisions that exist on a global scale. Is this all leading to a collapse of society? Good question.

Excelsior

You do know Greenbean, that asylum seekers need specific permission to work in Ireland?

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My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Greenbean

I hope so.

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Greenbean:
I hope so.</font>

So they are stealing all our jobs while not being able to take up employment. Man, these refugees must be some type of SUPER refugees. I reckon we should get some Croatypnite JUST IN CASE!

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It rained in San Francisco Wednesday evening, but the penguins were
still there Thursday morning, smiling broadly.

Excelsior

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Clintons Cat:

Good luck Excelsior I feel you may need it.

</font>

Excuse my incomprehension but, why so Clinton?

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My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Magwitch

In all the debate about racism and xenophobia it seems to have been over looked that these very things can be readily imported.

No country in the world has a "free for all" immigration system, and no country in the past imported established religious/political parties (i.e. America who is often quoted in relation to the Irish) and if they did it had a sorry outcome. The argument is a false one, and in my opinion stoked up by "hollier than thou" liberal collage dropouts who want attention , or at the very least to be at the center of something they can make a living off and feed their ego from. Racists disappear if ignored and Xenophobia, though natural, wears away.

Greenbean

Sorry misread that. Was reading it as meaning to come to Ireland legally you must want to work. Which is what I was hoping. I've absolutely nothing against anyone, asylum seeker, local or incoming being in ireland if they wish to abide by the laws and work.