Should we discuss shooting safety in public?

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Okay, so for those of you who ever read Pilot, the title of this thread should be familiar. For the rest, the idea of this thread is to post the mistakes you've made so everyone else can learn from them. These could be mistakes in competition, or mistakes in safety procedures, or mistakes in logistics or mistakes in general shooting; all are fine. But hopefully, the more honest we are here (where we're happily anonymous, by the way), the more mistakes we may prevent from occurring in the future.
So just one additional rule for this thread - no ridiculing people for making the mistake! There's no such thing, after all, as a human who never makes a mistake. (If you can think of a better preventative measure, that's valid though).

Ah! Sparks,so this is the confession box for those who take part in this "safe and harmless sport". Seems like you have provided a good source for those Government types to provide even more restrictive firearms law. They can now quote from people's own admission of failure to follow basic firearms safety rules.I thought shooters were supposed to be sure of their target before placing a finger on the trigger? Well done, I am sure McDowell or other Ministers will put you top of their Christmas card list for being so helpful in providing them with a one stop shop for information on unsafe use of firearms. :rolleyes:

jaycee

gouda wrote:

Ah! Sparks,so this is the confession box for those who take part in this "safe and harmless sport". Seems like you have provided a good source for those Government types to provide even more restrictive firearms law. They can now quote from people's own admission of failure to follow basic firearms safety rules.I thought shooters were supposed to be sure of their target before placing a finger on the trigger? Well done, I am sure McDowell or other Ministers will put you top of their Christmas card list for being so helpful in providing them with a one stop shop for information on unsafe use of firearms. :rolleyes:

Hmmm.. Interesting point of view..

As alternatives ..we could all

1.Pretend to be perfect
2.Pretend to know everything.
3.Never admit to a mistake
4.Never learn from our mistakes or the mistakes of others.
5.Never set out to educate ourselves or others.

I would guess that statistically , the occurance of injuries or accidents
arising from shooting sports and firearm use in Ireland would be far lower than
those associated with motorsport and driving.

I wonder if an "Oop's List" based on peoples experiences
while driving would be justification for a ban on cars ..I think not.!

An outright denial or covering up of any and all incidents and accidents
is not worthy of responsible adults.

If we are to continue to move forward towards the responsible use and ownership of a wider variety of firearms, a full and frank discussion of the need for proper training and safety procedures can only help.

1911

gouda wrote:

Ah! Sparks,so this is the confession box for those who take part in this "safe and harmless sport". Seems like you have provided a good source for those Government types to provide even more restrictive firearms law. They can now quote from people's own admission of failure to follow basic firearms safety rules.I thought shooters were supposed to be sure of their target before placing a finger on the trigger? Well done, I am sure McDowell or other Ministers will put you top of their Christmas card list for being so helpful in providing them with a one stop shop for information on unsafe use of firearms. :rolleyes:

Too right , you have to wonder sometimes

Sparks

Gouda, 1911,
If you have never made a mistake, you can post in here too. I'm completely certain that we'd all love to hear how you can be trained in such a manner that you never make a mistake when even trained professionals who use firearms (whether they be military or police) make serious mistakes which have led to injury and death, even in as small a country as ours.

As to the idea that we should keep our mistakes hidden away in dark corners, never to be spoken of, let me reassure you. The press will happily shine torches into all those dark corners for us, as happened in Boyle in April when a woman was hit in the back of the head by a spent richochet from a .22 rifle, the shooter of which would have been over a mile away. It made every paper. Now me, I'd rather we do what the aviation industry does and go through mistakes like that so that other people can learn what went wrong and even if there's nothing they can do to ensure that they can't make that mistake themselves, they can at least be aware that such mistakes are more common than they'd previously thought and as such can be that little bit more careful.

Besides, there are enough things lauded in the Shooters Digest every month to make a thread like this one insignificant on the gardai's radar.

Anyway, if you wish to talk about whether or not this thread should exist, I'll split the thread so that we can discuss it fully without cluttering up this thread.

gouda

Irishglockfan wrote:

Well Gouda,
thing is folks are admitting they are fallible.Everyone is,you mean to tell us that YOU have never had a close one while shooting??
I have and I openly admit it. To say that arguement that the burrocrats can pick this coloum[even if they know it exists!] for arguements to ban guns is not necessarily true.As Sparks said he got the idea from PILOT magazine,in which pilots tell their stories of close ones or whatever.Does that mean that the FAA or the DOT will use that colum to demand tighter restrictions on issueing a private pilots liscense??No it is actually encouraged so as pilots can learn from mistakes of others.As pilot[read human] error is one of the biggest causes of air disasters.Plus being a pilot is 100% more restricted than gun ownership anyday.Getting a gun lic compared to your commercial ticket or private ticket in ireland is a complete doddle,I can tell you.

There is also a coloum dedicated to this in guns&weapons for law enforcement,a mag that was freely buyable in Easons up to recently.Called cop talk,again it was about cops and the situations they got into dealing with armed crime .
Ditto a coloum on bodygaurding tactics.Now no doubt there are some who would say that that shouldnt be allowed as that might give the"wrong people" ideas.Trouble is "the wrong people" dont generally read magazines to learn things.or they are pro enough to know this as old hat already,and the people whom this information is pertinent to are then denied this learning tool.

[maybe this the reason Easons dont stock it anymore,they were scared this info might be used wrongly.Nanny state knows best again]

Now I suppose if a coloum was published in "Irish Little Boy Racer monthly" or" Arrogant Junior Executive BMW driver".THEN the transport minister might have a ligit arguement,as I think that colum would be blocked solid for years on end with total day to day idiocy and incompetance stories.

Anyway onto my tale.
When I was ten ,my cousin was given an airgun in Germany[back in the seventies an allowable thing].Once an uncle of ours who was the firearms training officer with the local police force took us down to our duck pond for some practise at floating bits of wood and a good talking to on the weighty matter of gun saftey,their dangerousness and responsibility of use and possesion of air weapons by youngsters.After delivering this solmen sermon,he said that now lets have some fun ,lets spook a bothersome duck that kept swimming between our floating targets.His idea was to put a shot in front of the duck in the water.Unfortunely he scored a direct hit in the ducks head,thussly ending the ducks existance and depriving his sister in law of a beloved pet and good egg layer.After the deceased had been retrived and brought shamefacedly to his sister in law,whereupon a sound Germanic bollicking was issued,uncle was orderd to pluck,gut and prepare said duck for next days dinner.A disagreeable task on a hot day in July.Uncle, not to let a educational opportunity go,promptly lectured us again on gun saftey and irresponsible use.To cap it,the story got back to the police force whereupon uncle was botherd by butts of jokes for many a year about duck hunting without appropiate liscenses and firearm saftey.

I learned five things from this;
1]Air rifle pellets of .177 cal even out to 50plus meters are deadly to ducks
2]Dont shoot at things you dont intend to hit or kill.
[3]Even professionals in their field will screw up and make mistakes
4]Dont lark around with guns,even somthing as "harmless" as an air rifle,deact etc.
5]Germans,even they are in the total wrong ,if they are older than you, they are always right,and will labour a point to death


"They say one learns from one's mistakes.I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others as it is less costly,and a lot less embarassing or painful!"
Otto von Bismarck

Interesting response. My point is that shooting is not a "safe and harmless sport" as claimed by Sparks. The replies in this thread are testament to that. It is because of the incidents described here that a lot of people have very real concerns about gun ownership and use. Regarding "burrocrats" reading this column,Sparks has indicated on other threads that he believes this may be the case. I would really love to hear anyone back up this theory of shooting being a "safe and harmless sport".

Sparks

gouda wrote:

My point is that shooting is not a "safe and harmless sport" as claimed by Sparks. The replies in this thread are testament to that. It is because of the incidents described here that a lot of people have very real concerns about gun ownership and use. Regarding "burrocrats" reading this column,Sparks has indicated on other threads that he believes this may be the case. I would really love to hear anyone back up this theory of shooting being a "safe and harmless sport".

Well, let me put it this way. Shooting is like flying. Statistically, and in real terms, flying is the single safest mode of transport in existance. But that doesn't mean that it's a forgiving mode of transport for the pilot. It just means that he or she is well-trained and takes a professional attitude to their flying. And a part of that includes open and honest acknowlegement that things do go wrong and people do make mistakes occasionally; and addressing themselves to learning the lessons from those mistakes or the mistakes of others. No-one will ever land on Weston airport's grass runway again unless they know they can land right at the start of the runway - because once, someone made a mistake and landed half-way down it, couldn't stop in time and ran off the field, through the hedge, across the road outside and into the ditch. So one person made the mistake; but everyone learnt from it, because they were professional about how they handled it, and published all the details in public. You can still go read the accident report on the web, if you so choose, and it was published in the flying magazines and safety notices that get sent to flying clubs.

The same holds true for shooting - we've got a magnificent safety record, and statistically we are the safest and most harmless sport out there; in fact, we are, for all intents and purposes, Safe and Harmless. But that doesn't mean that mistakes aren't made. In fact, we only have that record because we learn from those mistakes. And if we're honest and open, then more than two or three people can learn from those mistakes and maybe prevent more serious accidents in the future. For instance, I've never shot two rounds into the one target on a ten-bull card since that time in Rathdrum. Ever. It's become a part of my shot routine to check the target via the scope after reloading and before closing the bolt. Likewise, I'll never go about aligning sights on an air rifle for the first time without eye protection ever again. And maybe now that I've said so in public, someone else who's buying their first air rifle will do the same, and maybe, just maybe, that'll prevent a more tragic version of the tale where someone loses an eye.

It's basic Santayana : Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
And you cannot remember a past that's kept secret from everyone.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do - we love to ridicule those that make mistakes, and it's embarressing to admit to having made basic mistakes when you've been able to avoid them for decades. And there's a mindset in shooting today at the administration levels to keep things quite and hushed up and to control access to information so that we can hunker down and hopefully keep out of sight so as not to attract criticism. But frankly, it's wrong-headed. Me, I believe I'm a part of an Olympic sport, and a larger sport that's been around for a very, very long time, with a very proud and safe history and I'll be damned if I'll be scared into hiding in a corner because maybe someone who's never picked up a firearm in their life might think that we're distasteful or dangerous. Instead, I'll tell them about us. I'll tell them what the sport is like and why we love it and what we gain from it, and yes, I'll tell them what's wrong with it as well because otherwise, they'll think it's a snowjob. I honestly believe that the pros outweigh the cons spectacularly and decisively - don't you?


BTW, why would you think that those who are opposed to civilian firearms ownership would think that an open and honest safety review of procedures was more of a support for their cause than a mindset of covering up mistakes and never carrying out reviews?

Irishglockfan

BTW, why would you think that those who are opposed to civilian firearms ownership would think that an open and honest safety review of procedures was more of a support for their cause than a mindset of covering up mistakes and never carrying out reviews?

[/QUOTE]


Well, considering that this govt and other bodies were supposed to be "open and transperent" in it's dealings with the public.[If you belive that ,I have large stone in Limerick I want to sell ya]. So actually an organisation or group that was open and transparent and didnt hide behind spin doctors ,admitted that it's members screw up occasionally,and that this organisation does a open report and discuss this openly.It would be a refreshing change in Irish society,where most scandals or screw ups ,which are lot more trival are hidden in the skeleton closet,snowed over or spun or made into a tribunal lawyer feeding frenzy.I think that organization would be credited with alot of honesty.

Look, if the govt want to shut us down they can.However I doubt that discussing incidents would be a primary reason.I think it will be a dunblane or some sort of incident like that.It was the same that happend with the crossbows.they used to be off ticket items until a garda got a boltskewer] in ,and hey presto they are FAC items.While we are about it down go all the "ninja" martial weapons[although i have never heard of anyone being done in with a shuriken here],switchblades,and other undesireable knives.
I think the Gardai will adapt a wait and see attitude until somthing happens and then the pressure will be on us again.So it actually maybe behooves us to insist ourselves on safe storage for handguns and big calibre rifles.[Within reason of course!]That way noone can claim that we were irresponsible about the storage.

BTW do we have any CONCRETE proof that this board is monitored?has it been quoted anywhere,in any govt statements?[BTW if they do without permission,we can get them for copyright infringement,as although this is a public forum,quoting without the posters consent is copyright theft.]
Just a 10c worth of legal info I discoverd awhile ago.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Well, let me put it this way. Shooting is like flying. Statistically, and in real terms, flying is the single safest mode of transport in existance. But that doesn't mean that it's a forgiving mode of transport for the pilot. It just means that he or she is well-trained and takes a professional attitude to their flying. And a part of that includes open and honest acknowlegement that things do go wrong and people do make mistakes occasionally; and addressing themselves to learning the lessons from those mistakes or the mistakes of others. No-one will ever land on Weston airport's grass runway again unless they know they can land right at the start of the runway - because once, someone made a mistake and landed half-way down it, couldn't stop in time and ran off the field, through the hedge, across the road outside and into the ditch. So one person made the mistake; but everyone learnt from it, because they were professional about how they handled it, and published all the details in public. You can still go read the accident report on the web, if you so choose, and it was published in the flying magazines and safety notices that get sent to flying clubs.

The same holds true for shooting - we've got a magnificent safety record, and statistically we are the safest and most harmless sport out there; in fact, we are, for all intents and purposes, Safe and Harmless. But that doesn't mean that mistakes aren't made. In fact, we only have that record because we learn from those mistakes. And if we're honest and open, then more than two or three people can learn from those mistakes and maybe prevent more serious accidents in the future. For instance, I've never shot two rounds into the one target on a ten-bull card since that time in Rathdrum. Ever. It's become a part of my shot routine to check the target via the scope after reloading and before closing the bolt. Likewise, I'll never go about aligning sights on an air rifle for the first time without eye protection ever again. And maybe now that I've said so in public, someone else who's buying their first air rifle will do the same, and maybe, just maybe, that'll prevent a more tragic version of the tale where someone loses an eye.

It's basic Santayana : Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
And you cannot remember a past that's kept secret from everyone.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do - we love to ridicule those that make mistakes, and it's embarressing to admit to having made basic mistakes when you've been able to avoid them for decades. And there's a mindset in shooting today at the administration levels to keep things quite and hushed up and to control access to information so that we can hunker down and hopefully keep out of sight so as not to attract criticism. But frankly, it's wrong-headed. Me, I believe I'm a part of an Olympic sport, and a larger sport that's been around for a very, very long time, with a very proud and safe history and I'll be damned if I'll be scared into hiding in a corner because maybe someone who's never picked up a firearm in their life might think that we're distasteful or dangerous. Instead, I'll tell them about us. I'll tell them what the sport is like and why we love it and what we gain from it, and yes, I'll tell them what's wrong with it as well because otherwise, they'll think it's a snowjob. I honestly believe that the pros outweigh the cons spectacularly and decisively - don't you?


BTW, why would you think that those who are opposed to civilian firearms ownership would think that an open and honest safety review of procedures was more of a support for their cause than a mindset of covering up mistakes and never carrying out reviews?

Wow! Looks like I've stoked up the fire a little. I still don't see shooting as a "safe and harmless sport" and hopefully I never will, as this could lead to me becoming as complacent as the people who have confessed their errors on this board. Basic safety with firearms applies to all disciplines and shooting at an incorrect target could have disasterous consequences. Likewise,shooting a rifle which has not been sighted in correctly is extremely dangerous, regardless of the discipline. Leaving an empty cocked weapon accessible someone who is not licensed is unforgiveable;equally, driving with a shotgun on the roof of a car beggars belief. These are not minor transgressions of some complicated safety policy,these are very serious breaches of "basic" firearms safety and the reason they are there is,as Sparks states, to teach others so that further breaches can be avoided. Unfortunately,even though these rules originated from incidents which occured years ago,the lessons have NOT been learned.

civdef

Driving with a shotgun on the roof of a car beggars belief.

Happens surprisingly often actually - I had a good few customers come looking for replacement stocks following such incidents.

As for discussion of firearm safety, I think it's a good thing. I'd be suspicious of any shooter who said they had a 100% perfect track record and were paragons of virtue.

I respect the person who admits to making a mistake, learns from it and makes sure it doesn't happen again. Equally I have nothing but contempt for people who treat their screw-ups as a bit of a laugh and are almost certain to repeat them.


My principal observation on gun safety based on what I've seen is that the two biggest problem groups wrt gun safey are the following:

The infrequent shooter, particularly the farmer who keeps the shotgun for an occasional crack at some pest or other. The state of some guns kept by these people beggars belief and the handling often careless in the extreme - e.g. the farmer handing me the "broken" 22 semi-auto rifle over the counter, which as I discovered on immediately clearing it (S.O.P.) had a round up the spout, 14 more in the magazine, and a malfunctioning safety catch. He got offended when I let him know my admittedly strong views on the matter, and seeemed to think it was quite funny considering he had walked up the main street with the same gun slung over his shoulder.

The youngfella who starts shooting with out the benefit of guidance from more experienced shooters - relying instead on the example of similarly unskilled peers. These fellas are the sort who go out lamping foxes in people's backyards or popping at sign-posts - blackening the reputation of the entire shooting community.

Traumadoc

In medicine now we are trying to follow the example taken by pilots, recognising that humans are prone to error and taking steps to recognising those errors and taking steps to prevent them occurring in the future.

In many states in the US it is now manditory to wear blaze orange camo when hunting ad that you take a mandatory hunting safety course.

I had to do a safety course to obtain a hunting firearms license and a hunter accreditation course to partake in culls.

Having a frank discussion about safety in this sport is healthy, and if it saves one serious accident or death then it is worth it.

Sparks

gouda wrote:

Wow! Looks like I've stoked up the fire a little.

Well, I've got a basic principle - you ask a question, I'll give you as good an answer as I can.

I still don't see shooting as a "safe and harmless sport" and hopefully I never will, as this could lead to me becoming as complacent as the people who have confessed their errors on this board.

Well, see there I've got two problems.
Firstly, you're still confusing the idea of a sport that's safe and harmless because people address safety, with the idea of a sport that's safe and harmless because there's no possibility of any injury. See, the latter just doesn't exist. Name one sport where it's totally impossible to be injured?
But a sport where safety is taken exceptionally seriously can become in practise safe and harmless. For example, DURC sees between 200 and 400 kids go through it every year; it's been around for 40 years; and if you don't count the tall kids who've hopped their heads off the low roof in the range, it's never had a single injury. Even the college chess club can't say that. So I say the sport is Safe and Harmless - not because it's not impossible to be injured, but because we take such precautions to prevent injury that any accident is like an airliner crash - very serious, fully studied, but incredibly rare. And we can't do that unless we learn from mistakes, and we can't learn from them if we don't talk about them.

Secondly, you're assuming complacency as though the people involved were habitually careless idiots when in fact most of these accidents are more attributal to either a moment's lapse of concentration (and gouda, you had a misspelling in that post of yours, so even you are susceptible to such moments); or to a lack of training (I know of no course in Ireland that I could have taken to learn how to set up and break in an air rifle - I had to ask the National Coach how to do it, and he didn't think to mention that I should be standing in the middle firing lane in DURC because he didn't know what the range layout was - we always trained in UCDRC).

Basic safety with firearms applies to all disciplines and shooting at an incorrect target could have disasterous consequences.

Indeed it could. And that's why Matt Emmon's accidental cross-shot in the Olympics was such an instructive thing to see - it showed that even the very, very, very best shooters in the world can still make silly basic mistakes thanks to a momentary lapse.

You can be pretty damn sure he'll never do that again though, can't you?

These are not minor transgressions of some complicated safety policy,these are very serious breaches of "basic" firearms safety and the reason they are there is,as Sparks states, to teach others so that further breaches can be avoided.

Indeed, so let's get them out there and discuss them and learn from them. It sounds very much like you're agreeing with me here gouda.

Unfortunately,even though these rules originated from incidents which occured years ago,the lessons have NOT been learned.

Are you saying that the incidents in that thread happened before, to other people? Or that they've happened since, to other people?

Sparks

By the way, following the recent JROTC tragedy in the States, there was a thread discussing this topic (whether or not we should discuss our mistakes in public) on TargetTalk - those interested can find it here.

macnas

civdef wrote:

Happens surprisingly often actually - I had a good few customers come looking for replacement stocks following such incidents.

You mean it's not just me!!