Burn all the witches!

Hobbes

Sometimes I fear for the human race.

Oklahoma school suspends girl for casting spell
By Ben Fenwick

OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) - An Oklahoma high school suspended a 15-year-old student after accusing her of casting a magic spell that caused a teacher to become sick, lawyers for the student said on Friday.


The American Civil Liberties Union said it had filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on behalf of student Brandi Blackbear, charging that the assistant principal of Union Intermediate High School in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, suspended her for 15 days last December for supposedly casting a spell.


The suit also charged the Tulsa-area Union Public Schools with repeatedly violating Blackbear's civil rights by seizing notebooks she used to write horror stories and barring her from drawing or wearing signs of the pagan religion Wicca.


"It's hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school," said Timothy Blackbear, Brandi's father. His daughter is now a 10th grader.


Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU's Oklahoma chapter, said the "outlandish accusations" had made Blackbear's life at school unbearable.


"I, for one, would like to see the so-called evidence this school has that a 15-year-old girl made a grown man sick by casting a magic spell," Bell said.


A lawyer for the school district declined to comment.


The lawsuit, filed on Thursday, alleges that Blackbear was summoned to the office of assistant principal Charlie Bushyhead last December after a teacher fell ill, and was questioned about her interest in Wicca.


According to the lawsuit, Brandi Blackbear had read a library book about Wicca beliefs and, under aggressive interrogation by Bushyhead, said she might be a Wiccan. In fact, Blackbear is a Roman Catholic, according to the newspaper Tulsa World.


"The interview culminated with Defendant Bushyhead accusing Plaintiff, Brandi Blackbear, of casting spells causing (a teacher at the school) ... to be sick and to be hospitalised," the lawsuit said.


The lawsuit stated that because of the "unknown cause" of the teacher's illness, Bushyhead advised the 15-year-old girl "that she was an immediate threat to the school and summarily suspended her for what he arbitrarily determined to be a disruption of the education process."


Doug Mann, the school district's attorney, declined to comment, saying laws protecting the school records of juveniles barred him and the district from responding outside of court.


"It's totally unfair that we are gagged by federal and state law and they can say anything they want," Mann said. "If the parents will sign a release for what's in the girl's files, we will talk about the true facts."


The lawsuit alleged Blackbear's civil rights also were violated when school officials prohibited her from wearing or drawing in school any symbols related to Wicca, a religion that dates back to pre-Christian nature worship.


The ACLU is seeking an undisclosed amount of punitive and financial damages for Blackbear, a declaration that the school violated the girl's rights, an injunction preventing the school from banning the wearing of any non-Christian religious paraphernalia and an order expunging her school record.

DeVore

SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!!!!

well... I got better...

DeV.

C B

She turned me into a Newt!!

C B

**** you DeV, it took me so long to find that bl00dy pic that you got there before me

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 01-11-2000).]

pepperkin

America...land of the free, freedom of speech, freedom of religion...well, obviously not.
Being a pagan who follows a lot of Wiccan practices, I really relate to this story.
Firstly, the girl would NOT!! make a teacher sick by casting a spell in the wiccan religion. Wiccans have one rede, one rule, and that is "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." Which means, you cannot hurt anyone or influence them to possible harm. (Which means love spells are out, technically, because they interfere with a persons free will and therefore harm them.) and any curse or spell to make someone ill is ALSO completely against Wiccan beliefs!
So the school is full of shoit. But then, aren't they always? I hope the Blackbears get their case. They deserve it.
I really wish people would remember the foundations this country was based on and quit trying to make everyone want to watch the same tv, think the same opinions, and basically be a bunch of ****ing robots...(I attack the country due to the fact that I'm ALWAYS reading anti-pagan stories in the american media...)

Hobbes

To play devils advocate here...

The school is under a gag order from the goverment, so the only side of the story we are hearing is the parents. They mention they would tell the whole story if the parents signed a release form. Granted there are stupid people in this day and age, but you have to wonder if there is more to this story?


[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 01-11-2000).]

Hobbes

btw pepperkin, hope your not voting for Bush. He publically stated that Wiccan or any other Pagan belief system is not a valid religion.
....

Somewhat bored I checked up the ACLU website for information on it.

There is a hell of a lot more to the story then just the casting spells part. Personally I think they did the girl a great injustice in other areas (eg. Confiscating her fictional stories from her bag after claiming they were searching for a gun).

Complaint file is here..
http://www.aclu.org/court/blackbear_complaint.html

Intresting read. The ACLU story is here ,with a picture of her (yea she's scary )
http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n102600.html

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 01-11-2000).]

pepperkin

I WANT MY FREEDOM OF RELIGION DAMMIT!
Not in this century, *sigh* oh well...
Bush is against my religion, Gore is against my unwed motherhood.
Actually I never vote, as I see it, they're all lying farts who are going to f*ck up my country anyway, why bother voting as it changes absolutely nothing. So I'm not voting either way, unless they come up with a candidate that doesn't subscribe to this utopic "Everyone is the same in every way" society all the others seem to want...

Blitzkrieger

so you just do love spells and dance naked then?

OM

pepperkin

love spells are against my way of thinking (read my post about the religion...) dancing naked, now...that sounds fun....I should try it sometime!
*grins*

Talliesin

Actually I never vote, as I see it, they're all lying farts who are going to f*ck up my country anyway

So rather than vote Nader and at least register a protest against the American status quo you're going to let the country be run by religious bigots.

Smart plan!

Talliesin

so you just do love spells and dance naked then

A love spell on someone would be against the Wiccan Rede, since it would attempt to make someone act against their will.

A spell to help someone find someone suitable for them, cast with their consent, would be a different thing.

Dancing naked's as good a way of raising energy as any other. Don't do it much myself though.

pepperkin

I avoid politics as often as I can when it doesn't shove itself in my face. Does that make me stupid? probably. Do I give a d*mn? nope.
I don't think Nader will get anywhere, he hasn't the campaign and campaigns win elections. Fact. Oh and no matter WHO the american public vote for, Congress will put on the "throne" whom they choose, don't be naive and assume we actually democratically choose our president! They let us vote to make us feel better, they don't actually give a d*mn who wins through the public polls. Congress' votes matter. Also a fact.
I'm not "letting" the country be run by religious bigots, I haven't a damn thing to say about it, and neither do you. I accept this fact.

Excelsior

i dont think that democracy is meant to be like a horse race. you dont bet on who you think is going to win
you vote on who best represents your wishes.
nader is the most liberal and certainly most likely to respect wiccans and unwed mothers.
and he also is anti-kakistocracy. so you really should sock it to the man by voting ralphie no1¬!

pepperkin

Who's betting?!? not me...
I agree Nader is the best choice. My point being, even HE admits he'll most likely only get 5% of votes.
I avoid politics so heavily I didn't even know Ralph Nader EXISTED until two days ago, I've been kinda checking out his promises, I have to admit he makes better promises than the other two...

Talliesin

I don't think Nader will get anywhere, he hasn't the campaign and campaigns win elections.

Goddess! do you actually think I believe Nader has a chance of winning!

I am not that naïve by a long shot.

Nader will lose. However the more votes he gets the more effect it will have on the policies of Bush and Gore. Bush and Gore are both cynical about votes (they're professional politicians). Bush and Gore will both want the people who voted for Nader to vote for them instead (particularly Gore, since most of those voting Nader would vote Gore if they had to choose between the two main candidates). This is the main way that elections effect policies in Representative Democracies, although the 2-party system you have over there does reduce the effectiveness of a vote.

Even spoiling your ballot has an effect that not voting at all does not.

And of course alot of States have referenda at the same time. Even Anarchists vote in referenda!

TwoShedsJackson

I think this is going off-topic just a tad??

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Amp's waiting for cable!!

pepperkin

I agree, the original topic was lost here...
GO PAGANS!!! lol
Gee, with a choice between Bush and Gore, how CAN we win is the question? The US is gonna suck for the next 4/8 years...oi...
In any case, I really hope we get some brains (we as in humanity as a whole...) and quit the crap like in the above case with Brandi Blackbear. It's inane.
Would be nice if we COULD curse, I'd curse all these ignorants and put the fear of the Goddess into them, YEAH!

Tomorrow, folks, is my sons third birthday. I'm old decrepit and senile and getting more so. Wish me luck.

Bard

Best of luck with the b'day, pepperkin - and what could you expect me to say but NO! You are NOT old, decrepit and senile!!! (so there!)

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Vincent

I'm i the only one here who doesn't believe in the ability of casting spells?

pepperkin

It's ok, Vincent....not everyone can be perfect


Bard, am too! lol!

Hobbes

If you mean flying on a broom and turning CB into a newt then no.

But casting spells is just a belief system in much the same way people pray to God for miracles and they happen or those people who get well after taking plecibo.

Vincent

good point hobbes, except i dont believe in god or mircles either

Hobbes

What do you believe in?

Vincent

myself? i dont know, i dont believe in god, but i "like" to believe that there is life after dead, hope so anyway.

Manach

To quote C. S. Lewis on the subject
"It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches. There is no moral advance in not executing them when you don't think they are there. You wouldn't call a man humane for ceasing to set mouse-traps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house."

pepperkin

Bingo, Hobbes...it's a form of mind over matter, there's no flying on brooms, I wish, would save me bundles in transportation costs.
everyone is entitled to his or her belief system. Those who don't have one, are entitled to that too. *shrugs*
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and etc etc. That was a mistranslation of the transcript. It has been more literally translated to mean "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." (Witches being suspected of poisoning everybody, it became pretty much synonymous.)
Live and let live, thats my motto

Wyverne

Vincent believes in Buffy

and aint that enuff ??

C B

O.K. if we accept the Wiccian belief system as a valid religion (which I do) then whats wrong with the girl being suspeneded for casting a spell. Surely we should susopend Islamic students who declare Gihads on their teachers or Christians to damn them to hell.

essentially what we have here is a religion which wants recognition and when it gets it says "No thanks, you know its all bullsh!t anyway".

Methinks, it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it.

P.S Having a three year old son doesn't make you old pepper (though I don't know about the decrepit and senile part and I hope he has a great party.



[This message has been edited by C B (edited 07-11-2000).]

Talliesin

Yes. People should be punished for casting negative spells. Even if you don't believe in the effectiveness of magick it would be a form of intimidation (though some consider intimidation "free speech"...).

However, there is no evidence that the girl cast a spell, for one thing she's not even Wiccan (she's Catholic, now if she'd said a Novena...). The case is about someone being falsely accused of a crime because they were curious about something that the school authorities disapproved of.

C B

Tal,
I wasn't refering to the case in particular but to the discussion in general.

I concur with your analysis of the case.

C B

Well I suppose it could be classed as Attempted Assault

pepperkin

Ok, so say we accept Wicca as a valid religion. Thing is, as I said before, "Wiccans" do NOT cast spells to make people sick or harm them in any way.
I'd like to see proof that she actually cast a spell on the teacher, for one. I've been a practicing pagan for MANY years and I have yet to see a wiccan spell to make someone ill, and to do something of that physical magnitude would take a lot of study, preparation, and would be very difficult to do for a kid who "read a book in the library."
Thats whats wrong with suspending the girl, it's ludicrous to surmise that she actually made this teacher sick! The teacher caught a bug, and pinned it on the nearest victim for whatever reasons, who knows what.
And thanks CB, but I also have an almost-7 year old daughter Old. Decrepit, and Senile, thats me...

Vincent

aye Wyverne buffy is my religon

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Talliesin:
Yes. People should be punished for casting negative spells. Even if you don't believe in the effectiveness of magick it would be a form of intimidation (though some consider intimidation "free speech"...).

that's a very interesting question. When i first read that I thought 'oh come on! why would you want to punish someone for 'cursing' you in a belief system that you hold no belief in?'

Then again it would be intended as a malicious act so perhaps so...

However, what would you consider an appropriate punishment for 'spell-casting', which I beleive is not currently illegal in Ireland?

Hobbes

Depends on the spell? Was there ever laws? I know England repelled it's Witchcraft laws in the 40's/50's.

C B

Pepper,

Do you believe that Wiccian spells can work?
Did the girl believe the spell could work?

If so then casting it is a malicious act. People who carry out malicious acts deserved to be sanctioned.

CB

P.S. Where/when did Al Gore say he was
"against" unwed motherhood?

..and o.k. point taken you probably are old, decrepit and senile.

Talliesin

There ought to be laws against christians damning non believers into hell!

Again the public prayers of some fundamentalist Christians (not wishing to tar all Christians with that brush) can be very intimidating, even if you ignore the questions of whether they have any effect, or if the target has any fear of them having a real effect.
I think intimidation should be a civil offence with a minimum amount of damage perceived to be done (so that the plaintiff would always be awarded something if the defendant is found guilty).

So do Wiccans really believe they can cast spells? I don't mean the bad kind that makes people sick obviously This is something any Wiccan can do with a lot of study and preparation?!?!?

Wiccan's do believe that spells can work. This would included spells that make someone sick, but Wiccans also believe that such a spell would have terrible negative effects on the person who cast it.
Many Wiccans (myself included, though I prefer the term "Witch", the etemology of "Wiccan" shows poor scholarship IMHO, and you have to remember it was coined by someone now believed to have been dyslexic) would classify many acts by other faiths as spells, a classic example being a Catholic Novena for a "Special Intention". We believe they work simply because the seem to. This could simply be a placebo effect, but who cares, if it works it works.

Hobbes

I always say Wiccan because I know witches who are not Wiccan. But I suppose to your average person a witch is a witch.

Hobbes

CB your missing the point. The aspect of Wiccan religion is that you harm no one else.

It's kind of a balance system of what goes around comes around (you can't cause harm without harming yourself).

If she did cast a spell that caused harm then she was no longer wiccan.

Of course there are witches who aren't wiccan, but that isn't the point. I don't think she even cast a spell as Talliesin said she was in fact Cathlolic, and just researching Wiccan for her writing.

C B

Hobbes

I'll admit my igorance of the Wiccian religion.

The report says she was a Catholic but all that means is her parents are catholic (most of us would have been categorised as Catholics at school though we wouldn't have considered ourselves to be one)

If she believed that casting the spell would harm the teacher and then cast it she is being malicious and should be punished.

I believe that everybody is entitled to their belief system, but this entitlement carries with it responsibility. you can't use your beliefs on one hand as a shield from wider social constraints and on the other deny them when they get you in trouble.

This analysis may not hold perfectly in this case, but I feel it holds in the more general debate here regarding whether or not we accept religions which seem ridiculous to us.

Chubby

There ought to be laws against christians damning non believers into hell! Surely eternal suffering is worse than a tommy-ache.

And I am also curious about pepperkin's believes. So do Wiccans really believe they can cast spells? I don't mean the bad kind that makes people sick obviously This is something any Wiccan can do with a lot of study and preparation?!?!?

[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 08-11-2000).]

pepperkin

"Wicca" has been theorized to have come from about 10 different sources, for "Wita" or some such nonsense...
I don't call myself "Wiccan" because I don't categorize myself, and many of my beliefs came from the native americans. I am pagan, litereally translated into "not christian."
Yes, Wiccans and pagans like myself believe in spell casting, and anyone can do it with some practice. It's focus.

CB said...."If so then casting it is a malicious act. People who carry out malicious acts deserved to be sanctioned."

You miss my point. I said I wanted to see proof she cast a spell. If she DID cast a malicious intent spell, she should have retribution, although karma will take care of it too...in my opinion.

"If she believed that casting the spell would harm the teacher and then cast it she is being malicious and should be punished."

If she cast the spell, yes! But prove to me that she did, is all I've been saying.

Bard

More "information" at http://teamtulsa.com/news/tulsanews/55570.shtml

Ridiculous, isn't it?

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