Can you make negative racial comments...

DeVore

This is a question I posed to some friends over dinner once:

"Can you make negative comments about a racial grouping, or culture, without being racist".

Is it acceptable to speak of a statistical norm for a set without being rascist?

I'll try and quantify the question better:

"If you could statistically show that people with green hair were five times as likely to be psychotic killers as non-green haired people, but that there were green-haired people who lived perfectly normal lives, would you be right to refuse to allow a green-haired person to babysit your kids based on hair colour alone?"


Its Pandora's box of course, because its open to abuses of all kinds but in THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE, is it acceptible?

Addendum: Does "five" matter, would it be different if it were "twice as likely" or "one hundred times as likely"??

Answers on a postcard...

Tom.

Jak

Hmmm,

Well personally I go by the "Take people as individuals" approach. I evaluate them on the contact had and then file them away.

In this case, It would depend if I knew the Green haired person in question.

If i did and I trusted them, then I would have no problem.

If i did not know them (and here's what your after) I guess I would make the same value judgment based upon my knowledge of the group as a whole.

The flaw is apparent to myself. I know it might not be fair, but screw them. If it came to my kid, I would make the safest choice I could.

People make these sort of value judgments all the time .. they just don't voice their decision process.

JAK.

ps- In any case I would have the opportunity to evaluate the individual in most scenarios.

Blitzkrieger

I agree totally and have posted something like this before. It's something natural that everybody does.

The danger would be to have a totally closed mind about green-haired people.

Greenbean

A "race" - a different parallel strand of human evolution or different enviornment from which I come from, though small, may as well be from venus if he/she is (presuming irrefutably) 500% more likely to kill. Genetically/Enviornmentally they have differences which make them a whole lot different from me and I reserve my right to consider them different and to have a different value system for situations in which their differences make it important.

The problem is no-one is so smart as to know the truth about if someone is different or if you are just making them different - then it is wrong. In the case of an irrefutably 5 times more likely to kill person I will be racist on an issue of trust - I'm not wrong for it. Since I don't know, I am rarely racist except when I am stupid enough to listen to others.

Hobbes

The only time it is considered OK is when it comes to "Tribe" jokes.

I don't mean American Indians, what I mean is it is OK to be racist about yourself or you niche.

Eg, you can say Green hair people in general kill people if your green haired as well.

Canaboid

Surely ginger haired people would be a better example.

_CreeD_

Guess it's a question of the ideal vs. the realistic.
To hate someone blindly because of the crimes or traits of their race/social structure/whatever is wrong.
But it is also wrong to allow yourself, or others to come to harm when you know the chances are realistically much higher when dealing with those folk.

We are all racist, it's built into our Genes to differentiate for many different reasons. The main thing is to make sure this instinct does not colour your treatment (as someone else above mentioned) of the individual.


I work in Angola. I love the people here, they're some of the most friendly and warmhearted you will ever meet. Yet I will not go oustide the camp without an armed gaurd. You have to acknowledge that here your life is cheap, and you are a target for theft and murder. I will not trust any Angolan.
So, lately I've been asking myself am I getting to be a racist? I think, yes.
Does the fact that I believe I have a valid reason change that?..No.
But it's still the attitude I REALISTICALLY have to have, until things change here at least.

C B

All of this seems to be predicated on the notion that such a thing as "pure" races exist. Statistics never lie they just don't reveal the full truth. If we simply examine murder statistics according to the hair colour of the perp we will probably find a correlation (in this example green haired people kill 5 times a often as the rest of the population). This analysis however has probably ignored some of the vital facts. Perhaps it is green haired people with blue eyes who come from broken homes and live below a certain income level that are more likely to be killers.

What I am trying to say is that we cannot place large groups of people into mutually exclusive categories and proceed to analyse the behaviour of those categories.

Race is partially a social construct designed to justify our prejudice.

Jak

Originally posted by C B:
What I am trying to say is that we cannot place large groups of people into mutually exclusive categories and proceed to analyse the behaviour of those categories

We can and We do.

My larging groupings of people are not based on race, religion or colour however. (Is it not getting tiresome to continually brand each discussion here with the label of fascism etc.?)

I may not like the look of someone, or the attitude etc., I will then file the individual away, not in a racial category, but more in a "Don't trust or help this *******" category.

It is my perogative to do so. And we all do it to some extent.

Excelsior

around you cb i always feel like george bush jnr;

"yeah, what that guy said... that's what i think."

C B

originally posted by Jak We can and We Do

Jak,

I never said that we didn't i was answering the original question i.. was it right to do so.

i was refering to categories based on race (i apologise for my abiguity)

Also your example does not fall outside the remit of my point. What you say you do is to analyse individuals and then place them in categories not to place people in categories and then analyse the category.

It seems to me that you are the person who has raised facsism in the last two discusions.
I have not accused anybody of being a fascist for making inferences based on race ( i do however believe that they are wrong to do so)

Once I called a person a fascist on the boards for saying that they did not tolerate other peoples opinions. i was justified in doing that. It seems a bit pedantic to say that i am nameslinging (when I obviously am not)everytime I disagree with somebody.

P.S. You were supposed to be here at 11 this morning.

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 11-10-2000).]

Paladin

I see what CB is saying......

We often judge people on their social circumstances, and it so happens that a lot of green hair people are in a particular circum stance. Ok dropping the stupid metaphor that Dev used so as to remain "neutral" (since he does run these boards after all and doesnt want to offend ppl ).....
I would say that I dont like the rough parts of cities. People there are poorer. Their accents are totally different. More of them are violent because of their background.(it doesnt matter to me what their accent is or if they are poor btw, im just saying these things have their reasons and results in demographical scales).
They are the same race as me, but If i saw a gang of lads in north cork on a night out on the ****, Id steer well clear cause I dont the shít kicked outta me.
Its the same in my home town. There are as$holes that kicked the **** outta loadsa ppl I know, including cousins of mine. I hate them. They are scum. It isnt coincidence they live in council houses. There are nice people living in council houses. The numbers seem to me to be fewer on average than people in better houses.
I appreciate Im better off through poor luck on where I was born, but how different would I be if I was living all my life in a council estate?

I wrote an english essay on this recently.

In the end of the day, the difference is education. Simple as that. You see a group of proffessors from any race or background, and you wont be thinking they are knackers who will kick the **** outta you.
Its generally poor, uneducated (<--ever notice the connection there?) social groups that have the highest violent crime rates.
Its cause they dont have the education to climb any higher. Everyone still knows the difference between good and bad, so if they are *******s they are *******s regardless of their background.

note: Yes i know that there are nice ppl in all backgrounds also.

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 12-10-2000).]

C B

Paladin,
Well your slightly misrepresenting me, but I do agree with much of what you said.

The original post asked was it o.k. to place people into categories and then analyse the categories and the simple answer to that is no.

What we should (and generally do) do is to analyse people and then to compare them with our previous experience of similar individuals to make inferences.

Jak

Agreed.

But CB there is one aspect of this you are missing.

As you say (and we are in perfect agreement), take people as individuals and them file them in a category.

However, I will occasionally draw on the samples in my various categories, to make value judgments where i am not afforded the opportunity to get to know an individual or group of individuals better. If i see a pattern, and I don't have the chance to get more information, I will go with the average.

See Paladin's point of people he would avoid on a night out.

On a more general note, just because I might judge people as described above, does not mean that I will attack them out of prejudice. What it usually means, is that I will just ignore them.

I do not have any obligations to give my time to people.

C B

Certainly Agreed

but

I think one point has been overlooked here and that is the question of race as posed in the original post. When analysing individuals should we use race as a singular definition (there is a much greater depth to peoples personality much of which is ussually evident).

I agree that it is hard not to use "race" when faced with a clash of cultures. For example I don't know any Indians it is therefore difficult for me to understand there vocal inflections or sence of humour and this can result in poor snap judgements.

I realy should start using the new spell check facility (or just stop rereading my posts after if put them up)

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 13-10-2000).]

Paladin

I didnt actually mean to represent you at all CB.
I just meant that I knew what you meant.
People should be judged as individuals.
Should being the operative word.
I personally dont judge people by race.
I do sometimes judge people by their personal peers, which is different, although not guaranteed to be 100% accurate I know.
I still do it.
Feelings arent a voluntary thing.
I cant decide I dont want to think a certain way.
I just do.
We cant decide who we like/dislike.
We just do.
Do people choose to be racists?
I dont know.

BTW Dev,
comments dont make you racist. Feelings do.

DaBounca

is being racist illegal?

Hobbes

Originally posted by DaBounca:
is being racist illegal?

In certain cases. Yes.

For example if I was to apply to for a job and you turned me down based on the fact you didn't like my race/colour then I would have grounds to sue you for every penny you own.

.. just to add to that.

There was a reported case where someone was turned down for a job because he was Irish and the interviewer said "I wouldn't hire an Irish person because they are always drunk". He won his court case.



[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 18-10-2000).]

C B

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:
End of the day if I owned a big company and made a product that was seen a bad by any community I would be bad in their, and other eyes...

Lets say, for whatever reason, that the jewish community did not see eye to eye with my good/service - odds on that these days they would label me an anti-semite. Now thats just plain wrong - but is a fact of life these days.

Yes if you made a "bad" product you would be seen as a"bad" person. I don't really think that this is unreasonable. I hate people who make or buy child pornography. To say that Jews would label you an anti-Semite is ridicolous. If you were to supply a good or service which was against their religion yes they should consider you a "bad" person they would chose not to use the good but they would not label you an anti-Semite (Arabs don't hate us or consider us rascist for eating pork/bacon)

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:

Its like the everlasting saga about travelers over here. One group says they can live how they like, another group (me included for the record) questions how they can live as they do, and bring up kids in the conditions they do, in the modern world. If your on my side of the argument and voice an opinion, no matter how well you can back it up, with fact or opinion, you get labled a racist by the other side.

Sometimes it's reasonable to call a spade a spade. If you dislike the tradition and custom of somebody else and look down upon them because of it you are being a rascist.

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:

Again, its wrong, but is another example of how people misuse the english language, and/or how people are quick to judge people these days.

If you have a difficulty with being descibed as a racist for holding opinions which allow you to judge orther people based on race perhaps it has as muct to do with your own misunderstanding of the english language as with anybody elses misuse.


from dictionary.com
ra·cism (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

---

What about China? Have you seen the great wall?

All walls are great if the roof doesn't fall!

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 19-10-2000).]

Jak

Originally posted by C B:
Sometimes it's reasonable to call a spade a spade. If you dislike the tradition and custom of somebody else and look down upon them because of it you are being a rascist.

Completely off topic,

But I couldn't give a damn about their tradition and custom as long as they contribute taxes to the country they live in.

I think its a disgrace that a lifestyle choice excuses these people from contributing their share.

C B

Fair Point Jak (but your right its completely off topic )

I'm trying to deal with each specific issue in the broad context of DeV's original post (personnaly i prefer the green hair analogy as it doesn't allow anyone turn this into a rant of personal grudges)

I therefore do not wish to discuss the specific issue of how travellers may or maynot abuse their "culture" to sponge as you imply, except to say that to the extent it may be true then we should be judging individuals use of culture as a shiel for illegal activity rather than denegrating the entire culture.

tHE vAGGABOND

To say that Jews would label you an anti-Semite is ridiculous

You are correct, it is ridiculous. But it does happen. Its like everything, from football to politics - its a small minority f(_)cking it up for everyone. Religion breeds followers, and naturally some people follow more than others. Some of the more devout followers would read a lot into some teachings, again a small minority might go father than 'normal' society would normally deem acceptable (Branch Davidians at Waco and their beliefs derived from the Book of Revelations for example)

may or may not abuse their "culture"

I did not say that, or indeed anything like it. I said that their is two side to that story, like their is for every story. I include in my post the side of the coin I am on in this story, that is all, and a very brief pointer as to why. I disagree if that implies anything but my personal opinion.

To answer Dev’s question, Yes you can make comments about a racial grouping, or culture without being racist - that does not say that some person or another may see as racist that which you do not.

[This message has been edited by tHE vAGGABOND (edited 19-10-2000).]

Hobbes

So what your saying is it's ok to be racist if they are racist to you?

C B

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:

To answer Dev’s question, Yes you can make comments about a racial grouping, or culture without being racist - that does not say that some person or another may see as racist that which you do not.

FFS, thats untrue by definition. If you view people simply as a member of a certain race then you are a racist - FACT.

Excelsior

i think we may be hit by a wall pretty soon here with this conversation.

tHE vAGGABOND

Nope, what one person sees and belives as being racist, another would not see as being racist.

Some cases are simple, the Natzis were racist against almost everyone who was not a White, Hetrosexual, Protestant German. Others are not so simple.

In plain english - not everyone belives the same thing, not everyone lives under the same rules - therefore whats racist to me and you, might not be racist to Joe down the street or someone in another country/continent.

What I said was that one could make a point about someone/something without being racist. Everyone agree.

Now the second part of the point was that you may not think it is racist, that does not say that someone somewhere would disagree and say it was racist. (My point was to link it to the point I made earlier in that post about people being different and all that)

Jak

Originally posted by C B:
FFS, thats untrue by definition. If you view people simply as a member of a certain race then you are a racist - FACT.

We all are part of a certain race. I have been and I sometimes myself would identify someone by their race.

Races exist ... fact. There is nothing evil about noticing the difference.

Pal hit this argument dead bang IMO .. comments don't make you racist .. feelings do.

C B

This is not a question of interpretations. If you judge other people according to their race you are being racist. (in the same sence as if you don't eat meat you are a vegetarian).

Now there can be various interpretations of how wrong/right it is to be a racist.

Hobbes

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:
Nope, what one person sees and belives as being racist, another would not see as being racist.

Just because you don't see it as being racist doesn't mean it suddenly isn't. Any opinion you have on another person based on thier race, colour, creed and not the person is being racist.

If I was to say all RC Irish people are terrorists, would that be a racist statement? Despite the fact that is what some people believe.

"You have been charged with stealing a car. How do you plead?"
"Not Guilty, yer hon'er"
"Why?"
"Well I don't see it as stealing"
"Oh that's alright then. Case dismissed."

C B

Originally posted by Jak:
We all are part of a certain race. I have been and I sometimes myself would identify someone by their race.

Races exist ... fact. There is nothing evil about noticing the difference.

Pal hit this argument dead bang IMO .. comments don't make you racist .. feelings do.

Agreed

however when i said view i did not mean notice i meant was refering to your perception of them as a being.

Therefore to restate : If you percieve peoples charater as being defined by their race you are being racist.

Jak

Thats much clearer Conor

However, as a counter to the other comments made here and I'm sure you'll all agree ...

Just because someone perceives you as racist doesn't make you a racist.

I just think some people are overly sensitive and some are a little too keen (not referring to you all .. but the world in general) to label and attack whatever is not currently a flavour of the month action with Politically Correct magazine.

I have a very good friend of ten years or so who is chinese ... we call him chink (after he started using it himself for a laugh and kept using it till we adopted it).

If we are out and refer to him by the name ... some people might consider us racist. Whereas in reality we are all very good friends, there is no malice involved and we all have nick names of some sort.

But some people won't mind there own fkin business and take moral stands ... as i have already stated - if there is no malice in thought or action then people should just fkin relax about it all.

Hobbes

Calling your friend Chink is one thing. Saying that Chink is a lazy banker because all Chinese are then that would be racist.

Or better yet, to say that all chinese people like being called Chink because your friend does would be racist.

Jak

Originally posted by Hobbes:
Or better yet, to say that all chinese people like being called Chink because your friend does would be racist.

That'd just be stupid ... not racist

In the end of the day (as you said yourself) ... words are not evil - people make them evil.

My point is just that people can be very quick to judge these days and some pretty harsh terms get thrown about.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Jak:
That'd just be stupid ... not racist

Who said being racist was being intelligent?

Love how you use my own words against me finding it hard to come back with a decent retort.

tHE vAGGABOND

End of the day if I owned a big company and made a product that was seen a bad by any community I would be bad in their, and other eyes...

Lets say, for whatever reason, that the jewish community did not see eye to eye with my good/service - odds on that these days they would label me an anti-semite. Now thats just plain wrong - but is a fact of life these days.

Its like the everlasting saga about travelers over here. One group says they can live how they like, another group (me included for the record) questions how they can live as they do, and bring up kids in the conditions they do, in the modern world. If your on my side of the argument and voice an opinion, no matter how well you can back it up, with fact or opinion, you get labled a racist by the other side. Again, its wrong, but is another example of how people misuse the english language, and/or how people are quick to judge people these days.

C B

Originally posted by Jak:
We all are part of a certain race. I have been and I sometimes myself would identify someone by their race.

Races exist ... fact. There is nothing evil about noticing the difference.

So what race do you belong to?

Jak

Last time I checked I was Caucasian,

Heres an excerpt from an Anthropology site for ye.

Caucasian Race, term sometimes applied to a broad and increasingly vague subdivision of the human species with a predominance of light skin color, and higher percentages of light-colored eyes and hair than are found in other segments of the population. The designation Caucasian was first used in the 19th and early 20th centuries by scholars who believed that this subdivision originated in Caucasia, a region of southeastern Europe. Caucasians are now more commonly known as the white race, or as people of European extraction.

The center of the white population is usually considered to be Europe and the Americas, although the spread of Caucasians into North and South America began only a few centuries ago. Hundreds of millions of people in India and the Middle East, however, are most frequently classified as "Caucasoid" peoples, in areas where distinctions are not clear between white and nonwhite populations.

In North America, confusion over the designation white or Caucasian is considerable. Many people, including Puerto Ricans and Mexican-Americans, are now being identified as "Hispanic" rather than "white" in social counts of American populations, such as the United States Census. Increasingly, the term white is becoming a residual category, denoting that part of the population not covered by the following classifications: blacks, Hispanics, East Asians, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, and other "socioracial" subdivisions.

C B

Jak,
I hate to use your own post against you but,

Increasingly, the term white is becoming a residual category [/qoute]

Would it then not be fair to say you might be considered Celtic or Anglo-Norman (the NAZI's would have considered you this way), i.e. race is not entirely a fact as you stated but a much more subjective assessment(though it is a physical fact that your skin is white{ish})

The reality is nobody is "racialy pure" for the simple reason (apart from inter marraige) that "race" as a socail construct crosses a number of categories which are not mutually exclusive, and is divised primaraly as a means of self identification hence this century we have been presented with the fallacy of a "white race" when historically and genetically such a thing does not exist.

Excelsior

cb, i've said it before, i'll sayy it again:
"my point is what you just said."

you're welcome around my house anyday.

Jak

I don't really see the point here ...

Races do exist ... it is a fact - It is quite clear.

I am not open to debate on this. If you believe otherwise or want to throw some Hippy crap about the Human Race about that is fine by me.

However I don't think I could pass myself off as a Native American or a North African.

I'm not arguing the case that races are pure, but it is certainly possible in many cases to identify someone as ... the white guy in the corner or the chinese bloke ordering a drink.

JAK.

PS - You are welcome to mow my garden lawn any time you like

C B

No races are not a fact but yes skin tones and other obvious physical attributes are.

I think you know that I am not arguing some piece of PC bull**** here nor am I saying there is anything wrong with pointing out individuals by making reference to these obvious physical attributes.

However these attributes are by no means clear enough to make sweeping statements about all individuals who may share them, and to do so would be racist.
____________________________________________

.... and you may clean my windows

Excelsior: you may clean my toilets but do not attempt to communicate with me or my family in any way.

Jak

Races are defined by physical attributes to some extent .. as detailed in the anthropology excerpt.

Never have I said that being Race A or B means you are intelectually challenged.

Greenbean

I remember last week I was listening to a band and I said they sounded alot like a black choir group. Immediately someone called me racist. I was not at all wrong for pointing out that the band sounded like a black choir group and I was not at all wrong for categorising that sound as from the southern american states choir groups. Its stupid when I can't say black for fear of recrimination; its a fair generalisation - its a part of the culture amongst black skinned people in that part of the world. If I can't say simple statements like that - how am I to make any meaningfull or comlicated statements on the situation. Its time to get rid of the whole anti-racist stupidity that enjoys riding on the righteous horse.

Jak

Agreed GB.

Thats what I'm getting at.

Races exist. There is the human race and then sub divisions depending at a guess on where those people originated on the earth. Evolution led to slight differences.

It's a good thing .. It adds variety. But just because I look at someone and remark upon their racial origin does not constitute racism.

The difference between races is cultural and physical ... it is there.

Race has become a dirty word almost .. and it's all very sad.

Derek Bell

Originally posted by _CreeD_:
But it's still the attitude I REALISTICALLY have to have, until things change here at least.

But at least you see that it's due to the conditions there - your comment *until things change here at least* shows that.

Von

Can you make negative racial comments...

Yes. All white south africans are ignorant, fat, condescending, bad tempered, loud idiots with no sense of humour. Never met a nice south african ever.