A "Street" Scenario

soma

I was originally going to post this to the "self defence - but is it?" thread, but to say that the thread has gone off-topic is to put it mildly..

Oh and, quick introduction as I havent posted before. I'm male, 28, live in dublin, silat beginner.

This is a situation my sister & her boyfriend were unfortunate enough to find themselves in a few months ago. The pair of them were walking along a street in dublin2 late one fri/sat night (a situation I most certainly try to avoid myself) when a group of around 4 youths (aged late teens/early 20s) came up behind them and became abusive & announcing that "every night-out we find a couple and make their lives hell".

Now the pair of them just kept walking, kept their backs turned. This was going on for about 5-10 mins (no taxis were going past & very few ppl around) & the abuse & some threatening posturing continued.

At one point a garda car drove past and my sis tried to flag it down but with no luck. (I guess there's a chance the guards thought she was just some drunk girl mistaking them for a taxi etc..)

Then things took a turn for the worse. While the couple were still doing the "PC/decent" thing of trying to walk away etc.. One of the group sprang up behind them and threw a kind of 'reach-around' punch at the boyfriend cutting him open around the eye (the scumbag in question was also wearing a ring. no doubt to inflict maximum damage).

The others then started closing in, but as luck would have it a garda car just happened to drive past at this point and thankfully this one *did* stop as there was obviously something badly amiss at this point..

So.. my question..

..what (if any?) is the correct way to handle this situation if I, or any of you guys/girls, found ourselves in this position..? (Especially seeing as we have the added respsonsibilty of a girlfriend/boyfriend with us.)

some thoughts on it myself..

* The couple followed pretty much the advice one often hears in general society. "Ignore them, pay them no heed, walk away". However this approach only resulted in them being sitting ducks for an attack in the end.

* I guess someone might say something like "well the lad should never have 100% turned his back on the group, should have looked over his shoulder or tried to walk slightly sideways or tried to back away" (altho I imagine walking backwards is hard to do for 5-10 mins! ) *However* if he had done any of the above I *guarantee* you that certain people would say the actual attack was partially his own fault & that he contributed to 'provoking' them cos he kept looking back etc when he should have paid them no heed at all.

* In the "self defense - but is it?" thread, one of the contributors posted something like.. he had been in 2 confrontations (I think one was at an ATM..) where someone was trying to start on him but he "stared them down". However I think on both occasions that he mentioned (definitely at least one..) he said that the aggressor was 'an inch from my face' at the time he was staring them down. Now.. I dunno.. maybe that is acceptable practise if you think u are some sort of MA/SD expert who is confident he can defend a strike/headbutt from one inch away.. (even as a beginner I would imagine that is a scenario No one should allow themselves be put into??) but holy ****.. there's no_way_in_hell I would ever want to let an aggressor get inside my personal space like that, I mean.. the *damage* someone could do with a short-range headbutt/surprise uppercut etc.. christ.. no time at all to react/defend.

* Putting myself & my GF in the above couple's shoes, I'm wondering.. if we had our backs turned after the taunting, and one of the scumbags ran up from behind and smashed my *girlfriend* from behind.. I'd be wracked with guilt etc for months/years for choosing to adopt the "sitting duck" stance
that occoured above.

So does anyone have opinions/advice etc.. on what the smartest thing to do in this scenario is..? (natrually trying to find the police or a taxi ASAP is top of the list but above this proved fruitless). I mean.. do some people subscribe to a school of thought whereby turning and facing the threat is a realistic option..? (and a group of four scumbags is one hell of a threat to be trying to face..). Is there a school of thought that if u stood up 2 the 'ringleader', the group may back down..? Probably wishful thinking..?

Very interested in your responses, and I hope ppl can keep them on-topic and
not wander into the typical 'this MA is better than that MA' slagging - there's been plenty of those.

cheers,

logic1

Of course this is simply my opinion of what I would do, all morals and legalities aside but with a girl with you, wearing possibly awkward shoes, may be a slow runner so escape isn't an option.

Maximum aggression against the approaching threat is the only way I'd go. Focus on the most threathening member of the party and apply maximum force.

Obviously if you're either not a fighter or not skilled in this situation without external intervention of gardai, passers by etc.. you most likely are going to be fcuked both figuratively and possibly literally.

Even if you are skilled it can go two ways either the skangers backoff after you drop their friend or they all attack you. In case of the latter see above paragraph for probable outcome.

.logic.

paddyc

the boyfriend should have smacked your sister in the face... loafed her and booted her and then turned to the 4 scum bags and said ... right whos next ....


not one of them would have moved... I guarentee ya


paddyc

Moss

soma wrote:

* In the "self defense - but is it?" thread, one of the contributors posted something like.. he had been in 2 confrontations (I think one was at an ATM..) where someone was trying to start on him but he "stared them down".

I really don't think trying to stare someone down is a realistic option. You have no way of testing this out until you are put in a real situation, and that is not the time to try something new.

As for your sister and her boyfriend it doesn't look like they had alot of options. If it wasn't too late maybe they could have tried to get into a pub or a hotel or anywhere that was open nearby?

I have to say, picking on couples is really low. It would be nice to be able to outfight them, in fact I could understand if someone did give it a go, but I don't think I know anyone who can outfight four scumbags.

logic1

Moss wrote:

I don't think I know anyone who can outfight four scumbags.

My brother has an amusing story about a friend of his that was in a similar situation. Think it was three scumbags and they used the usual "Have you got a fag" then "How about some money?"

He walked away but I believe two of them didn't. I'll get him to post about it.

.logic.

Moss

A guy I know fairly well once told me he fought off three guys who tried to mug him but he made it sound way too easy so not sure if I believe him.

the_syco

Google FM 221-150. Its 13 years old, but I say its still somewhat relevent. If the mods deem it too severe, remove the FM's reference number.

If it had been me, I'd have tried to catch the arm, twist it, so that I'd be behind him, and bring the arm up. Upon hearing a pop (his shoulder being dislocated), I'd then proceed to kick the crap out of him.

In a fight for your safty, there is nothing too "low". Kicking him in the balls may have seemed "low" in school, but in real life, survival is survival.

logic1

the_syco wrote:

If it had been me, I'd have tried to catch the arm, twist it, so that I'd be behind him, and bring the arm up. Upon hearing a pop (his shoulder being dislocated), I'd then proceed to kick the crap out of him.

Approaching with a set technique in mind is a sure way to lose.

Google FM 221-150

Only results I got were for FM radios. A good way out might be to distract them with some Chris Doran!

.logic.

Skellington

logic1 wrote:

Maximum aggression against the approaching threat is the only way I'd go.
.logic.

what he said.

Musashi

walking along a street in dublin2 late one fri/sat night

Is this an area known for late night trouble? Is it rough,residential or shops,bars etc.?
Were there no other people on the street bar themselves and four scumbags?
Fair enough,ignore them and keep going,but the langers don't desist.In fact they start to get brave! Next best bet is step into a shop,bar,club doorway complete with doormen and tell them there's a problem,or an all night service station.last best bet is stop up, guy between the girl and the scangers with eyes on them,while she's on the mobile phone to the Gardai.
Streets completely deserted and no place open your in a bit more bother.Now you can't afford to ignore these guys any more as it will embolden them until one,as happened has a go and throws a slap.With no comeback at this stage the group will get brave and all decide to take a shot at you.This is potentially lethal,a four on one kicking could easily leave you badly injured or dead,and that's before we consider your woman now on her own,on a deserted street,with four hyped up scumbags.
What could have nipped all this in the bud would be a bit of "situational awareness" or as my Mother used to say,a bit of cop-on.Why were they walking down here on their own.Could they not have left with friends,or at least with a crowd heading the same way? Arranged a taxi to pick them up and left a bit earlier.Had a parent come get them when they saw it was deserted except for the scumbags.
Once it started to get a bit more heated I personally would turn and confront the leader or sauciest little bollix."**** Off home for yourself" delivered like you'd comand a dog.He makes any move to shape up or start giving lip he gets put down hard,he had his chance to get away.

the aggressor was 'an inch from my face' at the time he was staring them down. Now.. I dunno.. maybe that is acceptable practise if you think u are some sort of MA/SD expert who is confident he can defend a strike/headbutt from one inch away.. (even as a beginner I would imagine that is a scenario No one should allow themselves be put into??) but holy ****.. there's no_way_in_hell I would ever want to let an aggressor get inside my personal space like that,

No-one gets inside the fence.Put up your hands in a non-aggressive guard,palms out lead hand forward in an almost "Halt" position,strong hand back near your chest,open,but ready to strike.Accompany with strong commands.I don't know you,**** off away from me, that type of thing.He advances to touch your lead hand you flatten him,no messing.He's been warned and still acted aggressively,while you warned him to stay away in an apparently pacifying stance to any witnesses.
Even if you can defend a head butt,with his big head in your face and you locked eye to eye,you can't see him palming a screwdriver or Steak knife to gut you with.What ****ing muppet lets someone angry get close enough to kill them?
Stare them down,what pussy junkie is gonna decide "Nah,he's looking at me now,I can't mug him for me next fix,better find a Granny"?
At this stage walking backwards or side watching them is showing weakness,you don't do that.If they were out to mug you it'd be over.They would pick a spot and do the job,not like it's likely to be their first mugging.
If they are talking about it and working up to it then they are getting up the nerve to do more.You ignore them and they don't **** off.Next,they start to step up the hassle.
Now turn,tell them to **** off,flatten the first one and be ready to go for another one.You just short circuited their whole script and went to 10 while they were at 3 working on 4.
If you are all unawares in Condition White while they are amped and at "Red" and ready to kick off, you are too far behind the game to get violent enough fast enough to turn it around on them.What you must do is go before they are ready and use forward drive and maximum aggression to put THEM on the back foot and into the role of the confused and scared party.
The story I got from a friend of mine,Mick, happened in Waterford.He was heading home from the pub when he was stopped by three scumbags he'd seen watching him from up the road.They stopped him asking for a light then for some money.While they were going through their script he'd been getting ready,and before the guy had finished his demand for Money,Mick had snapped his knee with a stamping side kick.While they were trying to work out what had happened Mick decked a second guy and the last one had the sense to run.The difference was that Mick was switched on and had seen this "ambush" taking shape so had a fair idea what was coming,already gone from condition White to Orange.When they started in to the patter,using it to distract him while the other two got in position to jump him,he'd decided this was a mugging in progress,gone to Red and acted to pre-empt their attack.
Was this harsh? Certainly! Was he justified? He was the one there to make the call.He went home safe happy he'd acted correctly.
Hope this gives you something to think about and remember the six P's.

Cake Fiend

logic1 wrote:

Maximum aggression against the approaching threat is the only way I'd go. Focus on the most threathening member of the party and apply maximum force.

I'd personally disagree with this advice in this particular situation. I'm assuming the guy described isn't a very aggressive person naturally, given his inclination to keep the head down and keep walking. Also, he mightn't be very big/strong/threatening (and it's not easy to put on a scary face when you weigh under 70kg or so, especially with four knackers after you) [Edit: Musashi made a very good point above as I was typing this post out - not only do you have to amp yourself up, you have to amp yourself up even quicker than these scumbags, as they are already in a more aggressive mode than you right off the bat]. Even then, going apesh1t on one of them might have gotten him in more trouble - one of them could have had a weapon, a cop might have come along at the wrong moment and arrested him, the three others mightn't have been fazed and might have gone even harder on him for fighting back, etc.

I know first-hand how effective the maximum aggression tactic can be in certain circumstances, especially if you've a bit of weight, or can get your aggression going easily and especially against a single attacker. And to be honest, I'd consider that strategy myself if I hadn't much choice, despite my size. But I'd call it risky in this particular situation, especially not knowing whether these were 'little hard men' or real scumbags and bearing in mind the risk of the girlfriend getting a dig or worse in the fray.

the_syco wrote:

If it had been me, I'd have tried to catch the arm, twist it, so that I'd be behind him, and bring the arm up. Upon hearing a pop (his shoulder being dislocated), I'd then proceed to kick the crap out of him.

This is just ridiculous. For the first retaliation you'd need to have experience in jujutsu or something similar to be able to confidently pull this off on cue, especially after the few pints that were probably had. You couldn't possibly rely on something like this unpracticed. Then, assuming you could even grab his arm, then control him enough to twist it to hyperextension or dislocation (and there's no indication in the post of how big this scanger was) you seem to be forgetting the three other scumbags ready to put you in hospital (or worse) when they see you at their mate.


It's a poxy situation to be in, and probably very frustrating later thinking of what could have been done, etc etc. Probably the best thing they could have done would have been to get into as well-populated an area as possible. I.e. if they were walking out of town, try to walk around and back towards town. Or, as suggested earlier in the thread, try to go into a hotel or a shop and see if they could either wait it out or call the police. I reckon any sort of 'staring out' or fighting back could have gotten him worse than a quick smack in the eye.

Musashi

And in future think before they roam down back alleys at 3am! You can't get in bother if you stay away from where it's likely to happen, at times they can get away with it.
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Only when it happens can you evaluate if these guys are gits out to cause a bit of hassle or real thugs looking to hurt you.
Bear in mind that if one of them has a knife or other weapon the first thing you will know about it,if they decide not to be stupid and wave it around to intimidate you, is when you are on the deck covered in blood and wondering what happened. All fights have the potential to become lethal, which is why I try to not get into fights or put myself in a position I'd have to fight my way out of.
When I have had to hit people,I don't warn them or try to have a "fair fight".
I din't want it in the first place so why would I make it "fair"? It is a fight, not a spar in class where someone will stop it if it gets out of hand.
Finally, and I'm not knocking him, but your sisters BF had two options in mind to resolve this.Head in the sand , or hope the Gardai/Taxi or other third party gets him out of it.Hope this makes him realise he is responsible for his and your sisters safety.Bring him to Silat with you,or any other style he likes.I think once you learn to hit hard and are willing to do it, pretty much any style is better than none. And being willing to hit some one is more important than the style you choose to get it done.
Just getting him to think ahead and be more aware of the risks would be a start, although it should not take being the victim of crime to make people take an interest in their own safety.

BrianD3

Well I'd probably sh1t myself if I had four aggressive scumbags following me, so I take great care never to get myself into a situation like that and have been lucky so far.

I'm just wondering if someone does find themselves in a situation like that and it gets violent do martial arts help that much given that you may well be dealing with 4 absolute scummers. Or even 2 scummers, or even one. What happens if you're up against some sick f*cker(s) who's idea of entertainment is dancing on someone's head or ramming a garda car or stickin a banger up a dog's arse. They've watched their da "bate" their ma since they were a toddler and have themselves received countless batins from their da, their brother and other kids from an early age. Who, once they get to a certain age are themselves dishing out batins.

Does sparring in whatever martial art you practice really prepare you to defend youself against these people?

BrianD3

Bass.exe

BrianD3 wrote:

Does sparring in whatever martial art you practice really prepare you to defend youself against these people?

Perhaps, perhaps not.
Martial arts do teach you how to fight though. That's the whole point. They teach you how to hit hard(er). They increase your fitness. They teach some way of anticipating attack, and appropriate responses.
Martial arts help, but they don't decide the outcome of a fight. They merely tip the odds slightly more in your favour. It's still not a good idea to take on 4 people. Even with "j00r m4d sk1llz".

Dyr

Slight tangent no-one else seems to notice yet

a) dont just wave at a cop car when you need them, stand out in front of them if needs be, scream at em, chase em . this is a bad situation dont be polite.

b) IF that had been me, I would have bollocked the cops that did stop over the cowardly s.o.bs that didnt and found out what station they're from and gone to town on 'em. i've seen pc cops in cars sit there and watch blokes take a hiding cos they dont like the look of stepping in, wasters.

As for "do this, do that advice"... not much point chipping in. God knows the odds are against you with four scumbags and a girlfirend but Ive seen stranger things happen, you never can call it.

columok

Got attacked myself before by two guys. Managed to defend against the first but the second one caught me in the eye and tore it open with a ring. I tried every conventional method of avoiding trouble and it didnt work. I'm still no wiser about what I could or should have done.

Best advice: Stay out of dark lonely places, Get a taxi if possible, dont drink tooo much (easier said then done) do what your gut instinct tells you to do!

Clive

The guy got out of a four on one confrontation with just a dig in the eye and his girlfriend safe- fair play to him - sounds like he handled it just right. He didn't provoke things and bought enough time for the poilce to show up.

If he'd tried to fight them, he'd be in a coma or have his intestines all over Dublin 2 and his girlfriend would have woken up with her face smashed and a doctor swabbing her for DNA evidence.

Common sense applies, go into a shop, hail a cab, go into a police station, but I assume these weren't viable options. It's also handy to have the number of the local garda station (eg Store Street is 6668000) - a quick phone call could have made the first squad car turn back.

dent

Its a horrible situation to be in. I definantly know that when I'm out with my girlfriend I stay in public places and Q at a taxi rank if nesscary. I agree with many of the posters here and not walk alone with your girlfriend in quite off the beaten track areas.
If its not super quite go to pub, nightclub etc anywhere with more people.

If you are all alone with your girlfriend and being followed by 4 knackers I'd keep and eye on them and keep moving and get your girlfriend to ring the Guards. Get her to say she is on her own. I'd also pick up a bottle (If I saw one),shard of glass, use a key or anything that can help balance the situation. There are four of them and if they are willing to jump a couple who knows what they would do to your girlfriend.

Moss

dent wrote:

Its a horrible situation to be in. I definantly know that when I'm out with my girlfriend I stay in public places and Q at a taxi rank if nesscary. I agree with many of the posters here and not walk alone with your girlfriend in quite off the beaten track areas.

This is a tricky one because Dublin 2 is hardly a bad area. I used to live just off Leeson street and never worried about walking home late or anything like that. What happened to this guy and his girlfriend comes down to a large extent to bad luck. They didn't really do anything wrong. Yes they could try to be more careful in the future but theres no point in getting paranoid or living in fear. I'd try not to let it affect me too much.

Colm_OReilly

soma,

Sorry to hear your sister and her BF got in trouble. Hope they're okay.

The pair of them were walking along a street in dublin2 late one fri/sat night (a situation I most certainly try to avoid myself)

You've said it yourself there. They put themselves in a situation where an attack was more likely to occur. However, as Clive pointed out, they got out pretty much unscathed, so that's a blessing.

If it had been me, I'd have tried to catch the arm, twist it, so that I'd be behind him, and bring the arm up. Upon hearing a pop (his shoulder being dislocated), I'd then proceed to kick the crap out of him.

As I'm sure you've already figured out, that's utter BS. Besides being impractical and ineffective, it shows a genuine fear in the poster.

As for general advice Musashi is posting a lot of Geoff Thompson's stuff. http://www.geoffthompson.com He's good, makes a lot of money out of teaching people common sense. Not my cup of tea but a lot of people benefit from it. Otherwise pick up "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker.

BTW where do you train your silat at?
Colm

dent

Moss wrote:

This is a tricky one because Dublin 2 is hardly a bad area. I used to live just off Leeson street and never worried about walking home late or anything like that. What happened to this guy and his girlfriend comes down to a large extent to bad luck. They didn't really do anything wrong. Yes they could try to be more careful in the future but theres no point in getting paranoid or living in fear. I'd try not to let it affect me too much.

I think anywhere in town late at night has the potential to be a dangerous place. I agree it was bad luck but I don't think your paranoid or living in fear if you take a few simple precautions. I'm not talking about going around armed with pepper spray just be aware of your surroundings and get a taxi if your out late at night around town with your girlfriend.

We have to face facts that Dublin city at night can be quite a violent place. These kind of people hate to see anyone happy and do seem to focus on couples. Essentially cowards and scum.

Musashi

Yea, after training TKD exclusively for a few years I started trying out some other styles and got more interested in "Reality" fighting styles and WWII Combatives.I also read a lot by guys who are into teaching this kind of stuff.
One of these is Geoff Thompson and I really like his ideas on "the Fence",as well as some other bits and pieces.
Gavin DeBecker is good but his anti-gun stance irks me a littte!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440226198/104-2518748-3542311?v=glance

Some other names you can google.Read their stuff and decide what you like and what you can make work for you.I like if at least three different people quote a technique,you can be pretty sure it works most of the time!

Fairbairn -Get Tough,Hands Off, and his Defendu stuff
Applegate- Kill or get killed,Biddle and Styers for Combatives material.
Marc McYoung - Taking it to the street and
Peyton Quinn- Real Fighting,bouncer and prison type fighting
Melissa Soalt -Fierce and Female, known as Dr. Ruthless,her advice is good for guys as well!
Carl Cestari,Hock Hocheim,Kelly McCann "Jim Grover" for fighting and general security type stuff.
Geoff Thompson- Watch My Back, The Fence, and 3 Second Fight
Peter Consterdine- Streetwise
"SouthNarc" for combatives and knife work

Read all or some and take what you can retain and use from these people,work it into what you already know!I don't care what you call it,there are only so many ways for a human animal to move and strike another. Whether it's Karate,TKD,or Silat taught you ,a palm heel to the jaw is a good technique!Same with most of the reality/Combatives stuff.It's meant to be easily taught and retained,with a high chance of being succesful.Most all martial arts contain these "core" of moves.So train in these as your default options for a real fight.You only need five or six that you know real well and can apply fast and hard as needed.If all you know is hammerfist, keep going and throwing it until you've won or been beaten.
Some quotes from Peter Consterdine to finish up
"What I do in the street is effective AS A RESULT OF WHAT I'VE THROWN AWAY. In other words I have stripped my martial arts down to its barest constituent minimum, so as to work 99% of the time."

It is the "freeze" syndrome and whilst there are many contributing factors, having too many options to choose from certainly contributes to the inactivity.

In order to Finish it you need one or possibly two techniques which must be instinctive and well honed. Skilled at a hundred probably means you are effective at none."

"Any more than one technique in your mind clogs up the system, and this mental logjam results in inaction and confusion."

You have to avoid the mental conditioning that effectively puts your mind in the last shot instead of the first.

It is essential when you explode into action that your mind is focused 120% on the first strike only, not a second or third strike. If you do focus mentally on subsequent attacks you will simply water down the effectiveness of your first.

Pore every ounce of energy into that initial strike! Take him out! If you approach your training like a street encounter, you won't approach a street encounter like you are training."

This is the kind of thinking I like to apply to my practice of TKD.I really feel there are very few bad styles, you just need to tune what you are doing and how you do it to be workable outside the training hall.People like to criticise styles like Aikido, what if you fight an Aikidoka and his first move is a non-telegraphed open hand strike to your throat? Does it matter that an Aikido guy threw it? Bottom line is you'v been hit real hard and can't breath.
There is no magic perfect answer,so layer your defenses.
Plan ahead,stick to well lit and populated areas,have a mobile with the Gardai numbers in it.Be aware of your area and who's near you.Is someone following you or mirroring you from across the road.Do they have two mates waiting up the road to ask you a question,halting you there while another cuts off your escape to the rear?
Take a martial arts class,bring the GF,two fighting them off is better than one!Even just being fit and wearing shoes/clothes you can run in is a start.
Anything you can do to stack the odds in your favour or just make you look like more hassle to mess with than the next couple coming up the road.
One final thing I meant to ask about this.Any idea why they were targeted?Is there anything to draw the attention of thugs?Do they dress out of the norm? Weird hairstyle,piercings obvious displays of wealth like phones or jewellery and watchs.Are they a preppy looking very stylish pair? What drew these eejits after them?
Once saw advice that if your airplane has been hijacked,for example, don't be sitting front and centre with a "US Marines-Kill Em All" t-shirt on you
Hope this has helped some and would be interested in a little more detail on this incident.Best of luck in the Silat!

dudara

Firstly, a few posters have commented on how this couple should have been more careful walking home. I honestly think that these days, violence and random attacks like that aren't confined to just the poor areas, then can happen anywhere. Knackers looking for a fix or a bit of the old "ultra-violet" don't seem to care where they do it.

Secondly, they got home alright, so things worked out well, and the confrontation was well handled. However, if that squad car hadn't stopped it's very difficult to predict how things would have turned out.

Yes, you have to be psyched walking home these days, always alert and vigilant. Just not to the point of agression. I wouldn't lay money on staring one of those knackers sh*ts down. They're fearless, they're too stupid to be otherwise, and even more so when they're egging each other on.

Something like this happened to my boyfriend and I one night, going over the South Main Bridge in Cork. Now, my fella, is 6"2, and built fairly solid and no weakling. He has never practised a martial art but is as strong as the proverbial brick lavatory. And still, 3 or 4 choose to pick on us. We did nothing, just walked on home. One came up and swung at my bf, who just ducked out of the way, and laughed. Thankfully, they gave up there and we went home. Now, I'm quite an agressive person, and it's a good thing I didn't get a chance to open my mouth there, otherwise things could have been far worse. I'd start a fight with a paper bag if I could.

Musashi

the confrontation was well handled. However, if that squad car hadn't stopped it's very difficult to predict how things would have turned out.

So it was well handled "Deus Ex Machina" like "The Lord Of The Flies"?

I'd start a fight with a paper bag if I could.

Careful,Syke won't ever train you if you keep that up!

Did they pick on you cause you were wearing your "TKD folks do it with Hip Thrust" Tee Shirt while throwing 360 reverse turning kicks up the road? They may have pegged you as a Martial Arts Chick!

Stay safe! :eek:

dudara

No, despite my confrontational nature, I'd never throw shapes in the street, or in a pub or anything of the sort. I don't have stupid tattooed on my head.

I keep my fighting purely for sparring. I'm quite in control despite the fact that I'd love to thump every scumbag within a ten mile radius with an aluminium baseball bat!!

Zaph0d

Nobody has suggested a psychological approach to this situation other than showing no fear, which of course is important. I had a job one time teaching young criminals. They were used to being ignored and rejected by everyone they met and reacted very well to anyone who treated them as human beings. So, when I get approached by someone I think may end up hitting me I talk to them, tell them a joke, offer them a cigarette, pretend I am talking to anyone on the street that I don't fear. I am weaker and less violent than them so my only advantage is that I am less psychologically needy.

Why do they want to hit people? I'd guess it comes from a sense of inadequacy and alienation from society. 'if you can't join them beat them', so I try to get them to join me rather than beat me.

So far this has always worked for me. It also helps that my other half has no fear and chats away like they were any other lad and of course they like the female attention. Also I try to make physical contact. I lay a hand on the other guy's shoulder when I'm saying something. Just to show I'm not scared and that I don't think I'm better than them.

That said, random violent crimes are just about the worst. They cause psychological damage to society, making people scared to go out, so the punishments should be far more severe than for theft or even for violence between people who know each other.

If I get attacked by four people I'd be lucky to be alive and the priority would be to get the girl to take her shoes off and run away.

I've never been mugged but my policy would be to pay up and go to the police.

Dyr

Zaph0d wrote:

Why do they want to hit people? I'd guess it comes from a sense of inadequacy and alienation from society. 'if you can't join them beat them', so I try to get them to join me rather than beat me.

LOL i grew up on a housing estate with a bad rep, i still live there. The scumbags round our way used to laugh their arses off at social workers like you who taught they were only scumbags because they'd been alienated from society and had self esteem issues etc. They saw them as easy touches

To quote one self defence "guru": "these arent good people gone bad, they're bad people gone worse"

I remember one lad i knew had a social worker get him off a car theft charge. He thanked her by nicking her car while she went off to buy him some new clothes to help with his self esteem issues.

When someones in your face like in this instance, they are not a hard luck case, they're a predator. Convince them you're not a victim and dont be too concerned if that means they'll feel more alienated after you tango'd em.

Zaph0d

Bambi wrote:

LOL i grew up on a housing estate with a bad rep, i still live there. The scumbags round our way used to laugh their arses off at social workers like you who taught they were only scumbags because they'd been alienated from society and had self esteem issues etc. They saw them as easy touches

You're right. A lot of young violent criminals are smarter than their social workers. They know what the social worker has been trained to believe and they manipulate them, often by simulating the 'good' responses the social worker is trying to achieve. I'm not a social worker and I don't feel sympathy for violent criminals. I think their behaviour is caused by violent upbringing but I don't think that excuses it. Plenty of people have a violent upbringing and manage not to perpetuate violence in later life.

Bambi wrote:

To quote one self defence "guru": "these arent good people gone bad, they're bad people gone worse"

This is simplistic moralising that helps you feel good about attacking someone pre-emptively by seeing them as evil and subhuman. Babies aren't born evil, they get damaged by their parents. We're all capable of good and evil.

Bambi wrote:

I remember one lad i knew had a social worker get him off a car theft charge. He thanked her by nicking her car while she went off to buy him some new clothes to help with his self esteem issues.

Haha, I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time.

Bambi wrote:

When someones in your face like in this instance, they are not a hard luck case, they're a predator. Convince them you're not a victim and dont be too concerned if that means they'll feel more alienated after you tango'd em.

Once your in a fight you have to fight, unless you can run away. I just try everything to avoid getting in the fight in the first place.

When your mother's a whore and your father's a junkie, you've been expelled from every school, you've been beaten up by the police, convicted in court, locked up in st pats and trinity house and you know that everyone thinks you're a scumbag, there is nobody with the strength of mind to have a good opinion of themselves or to see themselves as part of society. Your view of couples on the street is going to be the same as your view of pedestrians in Grand Theft Auto.

dent

Zaph0d wrote:

When your mother's a whore and your father's a junkie, you've been expelled from every school, you've been beaten up by the police, convicted in court, locked up in st pats and trinity house and you know that everyone thinks you're a scumbag, there is nobody with the strength of mind to have a good opinion of themselves or to see themselves as part of society. Your view of couples on the street is going to be the same as your view of pedestrians in Grand Theft Auto.

Good point. Makes me wonder why these people are allowed to raise children.

Musashi

This is simplistic moralising that helps you feel good about attacking someone pre-emptively by seeing them as evil and subhuman. Babies aren't born evil, they get damaged by their parents. We're all capable of good and evil.

And if I was being mugged by a baby I might feel sorry for its plight.
Since it's more likely to be a full grown and hardened criminal scanger,I will feel fine about getting away however I do it!I wasn't its parent, but I will slap it as if I was!
And yes, referring to "them" as "it" makes it easier for me to hit It,so I can get back to "mine".

pma-ire

dudara wrote:

Something like this happened to my boyfriend and I one night, going over the South Main Bridge in Cork.

Christ Girl ! the South Main Bridge ! Your lucky no one fell in !! That things a death trap on the sullivans quay side. I used to live by there and just caught a guy about to fall into the weir. He was langers drunk and mis-calculated his right turn

Silverfox

I live in a respectable area and I've been mugged twice, the first time at 6pm in mid summer and the second time at 11.30 in the morning, both 5 minutes from my house. The first guy had a knife but I managed to throw my wallet as far away from me as possible and run in the opposite direction. The second time I unfortunately had no money with me and as a consequence, went home with a couple of bruised ribs and in a pretty bad mood. My attitude would always be to give them the money and run for help but I know the first time it took what seemed like forever for me to decide what to do. I was frozen. I couldn't move or shout for help. It took him moving closer to me with the knife to react. I can't help wondering if just knowing some form of self defence would have given me more confidence and so allowed me to think more clearly even if I'd never ever use it against someone who was armed. And it may have protected me slightly from the bruises the second time around!

Also, it's not always easy to be with someone at all times, people have things to do and taking someone with you to work or college isn't really an option! And as I said, I was in a nice, well-lit, well-populated area both times. The choices you make aren't always the deciding factor.

pma-ire

Silverfox wrote:

The first guy had a knife but I managed to throw my wallet as far away from me as possible and run in the opposite direction.

You were right not to confront the person with the knife. There are many who think that because they train a bit of knife defence in the Dojo/Dojang/Kwoon, that they can take on anyone with a knife.

Training to work against knife attacks are only for if you are in the action of getting attacked. If you ask for it to start then you better be prepared for the results good or bad

It's all about survival, and your survival in particular

Just a thought on the second guy...you could have thrown your wallet anyway and ran. Let them pick it up and find it empty while your out the gap