The M50 - you have been barrelled

zod

19 December 2004 By David McWilliams SBP

This article, like every other one in this newspaper and indeed almost
every sentence in every book you read in English, will have been typed
with a QWERTY keyboard, named after the first six letters on the top
left-hand side of the keyboard. Amazing as it may sound, this keyboard
was designed in 1873 as an exercise in anti-engineering.

The QWERTY keyboard is actually constructed to slow down the speed and
increase the effort of typing. There is a whole series of layout
faults on the keyboard aimed explicitly at frustrating the typist. For
example, the most common letters are scattered all over the board in
different rows, rather than concentrated together and, where they are
concentrated, they are on the left-hand side of the keyboard. The aim
is to slow down right-handed typists, the vast majority of its users.

In 1873,when typewriters were primitive things, the keys used to stick
together if the typist typed too quickly so the manufacturers
conspired to create the most inefficient, frustrating, convoluted
keyboard possible. So, rather than facilitate the human brain, the
keyboard sought to hamstring it.

By the 1930s, the problem of the jamming keyboard had been technically
overcome and trials showed that a new layout could double the speed of
typing.

But QWERTY keyboards were solidly entrenched by that time. The vested
interests of millions of typists, teachers, typewriter (and
subsequently computer) salespeople and, of course, manufacturers have
crushed efforts to introduce a more efficient keyboard for the past 70
years.

This episode mocks most economic and financial logic that contends
technology is an irrepressible force which will be ultimately
harnessed by all to make us more efficient. This is not always true.
In reality, QWERTY stories are repeated everywhere, as there will
always be vested interests that are doing well out of the status quo
and which force the rest of us to accept second best.

Nowhere is this more evident than on Irish roads, particularly on the
M50 around Dublin. We are being ripped off on the M50 toll bridge in
what can only be described as highway robbery.

At this stage, let's establish a few facts. I am not an engineer. I
have never built a road or a bridge. But, like hundreds of thousands
of ordinary Irish citizens, my life is more affected by the M50 toll
bridge than by, for example, whether Ian Paisley gets his photos or
becomes First Minister in the North.

On Tuesday, I spent close to half an hour waiting to pay - to pay for
God's sake! On Wednesday, when lots of attention was focused on the
North, the owners of the toll bridge announced that the toll would be
going up by 20 per cent when inflation is running at 2.5 per cent.
What is the state doing about this?

Nothing.

Let us examine what is happening here. A bridge that was supposed to
speed up traffic is actually slowing it down. Get your head around
that. This is the QWERTY keyboard of 21st century Ireland. Moreover,
the daily tailbacks are not caused by an accident or a narrowing of
the road, but the modern day equivalent of a highwayman.

What are we paying for? A small bridge. Not a great work of
engineering, but a small common-or-garden bridge.

There might have been an argument years ago for a private toll company
to build such a bridge because the state's coffers were not full, but
today there is no reason.

Yet last year, the same company was allowed to build a second bridge
to toll even more at a time when the government has loads of cash.
Why? Would it not have been smarter for the state to build the second
bridge last year, reduce the toll or eliminate tolls altogether, which
would force competition on the first bridge, bringing down prices
across the board? Who is negotiating these sweetheart deals on our
behalf?

The M50 toll bridge is probably the most blatant, shame-faced rip-off
foisted on the citizens of this country.

Here we have a private sector bottleneck on a public sector highway.

The state funnels us, like lemmings, from a public highway (which we
paid for with taxes) into a private sector jam.

So not only does the state pay for all the road up to the 500-metre
stretch of bridge, but it is complicit in the rip-off because it
actually ushers the motorist into the clutches of the toll.

There is no alternative route once you get on the M50.You are
automatically a sucker for the toll bridge. Therefore, this is, a "no
risk - all return'' venture for the owners.

It should be no surprise that the share price of National Toll Roads
(NTR) has gone from €10 to €18 this year alone.

This column blames neither the management nor the shareholders of the
company. They are simply responding to apriceless opportunity – and
who could blame them? It's nice work if you can get it. The issue is
the state's role in the rip-off. Would the French allow a toll bridge
on the Paris péripherique?

They would in their oeil. Would the English countenance a toll on theM25?

No way.

How is it done in other countries? In France or Italy, for example,
the toll roads operate as an alternative to the competition of the
national routes. If you want to get somewhere quickly you pay the
price for it. The toll company builds the roads from start to finish
usually several hundred kilometres of highway at a minimum. It takes a
big risk and gets a commensurate return.

In Ireland, the opposite occurs. The state builds the road and then
gives a private company the monopoly to extort money at the bridge.
This is a win/win proposition for the company and a lose/lose outcome
for the motorist. It would be funny, if it were not so serious.

In Croatia, a country which is four times poorer than Ireland and not
a member of the EU, it is possible to drive on a newly-constructed
motorway from Split to Zagreb (500 kilometres) and pay one toll. This
motorway has been blasted through mountains, has monumental bridges
over deep gorges and is four-laned. Does this poor country demand a
toll over bridges or through tunnels? Clearly not. Would it entertain
daily tailbacks on its main ring roads?

Of course not.

In Ireland, we simply have to wake up and demonstrate against our
state for negotiating such a rip-off supposedly on our behalf.

On Wednesday, when the 20 per cent increase in the toll was being
debated in the Seanad, the French government opened the world's
tallest bridge, connecting Clermont-Ferrand with Beziers across the
Tarn valley.

The Millau Viaduct is 23 metres taller than the Eiffel Tower, spans
2.5 kilometres, has seven towers 387 metres high and was described by
its builder, the famous British architect Lord Foster, as the "closest
a drive will ever come to flying''.

The company that runs it estimates that it will make a 15 per cent
return on equity over the lifetime of its 75-year lease. What return
will NTR make on its investment in the M50 toll bridge?

The French and Croatian examples simply serve as reminders as to how
things should and could be done. It is not a matter of income or
national wealth, but of organisation. The cost of the toll is only
half the problem. The cost of the hourly tailbacks on the economy is
enormous.

The wasted productivity, wasted opportunities and waste of valuable
time are what economists refer to as "negative externalities''. These
costs add up to millions of euro a week. So, in effect, the M50 toll
bridge is costing us much more than just the amount of the toll.

What can the state do about it now? It has signed contracts with NTR
that the company entered in good faith, so the company cannot be
blamed. As Shane Ross suggested in the Senate, the state should
seriously consider nationalising the toll bridge for the good of the
citizen. It must buy out the contract because the toll bridge is
slowing down, rather than facilitating, traffic.

The M50 toll bridge is the problem, not the solution to our ring-road traffic.

For any smart politician with an eye on the Dublin electorate, this
would also be an extremely popular move.

It would be good for the state, the citizens and the economy. The
vested interests that are making out like bandits would also be happy,
as they would get an exorbitant price for the asset.

The magnificent Millau Viaduct, an amazing engineering feat by any
standards, cost €396 million to build.

Estimates put the price of buying out the poxy M50 toll-bridge at €300
million. Difficult as it is, the state has to bite the bullet.

NTR have us over a legal barrel, and the law and private property
rights must be respected. But unless we want to burden the motorway
with the equivalent of the QWERTY keyboard, the government should act
on our behalf - and quickly - before the M50 extension at Carrickmines
is completed next September.

Victor

Would the English countenance a toll on theM25?

There is a STG£1 toll at Dartford. :rolleyes:

It would be good for the state, the citizens and the economy.

And NTR.

zod

And NTR.

ok lets sit in the traffic because we're jealous of the NTR :rolleyes:

shoegirl

If I remember correctly the toll on the Severn Bridge from England to Wales is the guts of GBP4 or 5 pounds. As its a bridge I don't think there is an alternate route (but it is infinitely more effective than M50 bottleneck bridge).

As for alterate routes, there is a detour you can take. In fact if traffic is heavy on the M50 it is far quicker to take the right turn on the N2 after the ward which leads to Blanchardstown and you can go straight on to Lucan, thus avoiding the M50 altogether. It can actually be a bit quicker overall.

BrianD

The Severn Bridge is only tolled in one direction...so al least you know you have free flow on one leg of a return journey.

Apparently, it is not an offence to "skip the toll" on either the M50 and M1. If you tailgate behind the car in front and get through they don't have much comeback against you. There is legislation proposed that will make toll evasion punishable. Until this is introduced NTR will not remove the barriers from the Easypass lane. This effectively makes the easypass a waste of time for most motorists as there is no benefit other than being cashless system. The M50 toll plaza is so badly designed that it will probably never acco,odate eazypass users that well. The solution is to run a fully automated camera system on a gantry so the toll plaza can be demolished.

The next toll road will be the M3 - another ripe commuter route that will turn into a nice little earner for someone.

Victor

shoegirl wrote:

If I remember correctly the toll on the Severn Bridge from England to Wales is the guts of GBP4 or 5 pounds. As its a bridge I don't think there is an alternate route (but it is infinitely more effective than M50 bottleneck bridge).

There are two Severn Bridges. I understand the new one (M32?) uses a virtual toll, that the state pays, based on availibility (bridge closed, no toll). I don't know what happened the toll on the old bridge (M4).

martpp

What about starting some sort of protest, somthing simple like continuously blowing the horn while passing through, let them know that we hate them instead of just happily passing the money over everyday. If it grows and everybody does it, I wouldnt think anybody would want to work there.

optikus-prime

You can't really abuse the staff because of the f*cks that run it.

Infini

I've heard its even worse in europe. Not that they're very dear but that there are toll booths every 80 MILES or so!

RainyDay

martpp wrote:

What about starting some sort of protest, somthing simple like continuously blowing the horn while passing through, let them know that we hate them instead of just happily passing the money over everyday. If it grows and everybody does it, I wouldnt think anybody would want to work there.

Can't see that they'll be quaking in their boots from the result of a few horns. The really effective protest would be to take an alternative route. Hit them in the pocket.

gerrydublin

zod wrote:

19 December 2004 By David McWilliams SBP

We are being ripped off on the M50 toll bridge in
what can only be described as highway robbery.
The M50 toll bridge is probably the most blatant, shame-faced rip-off
foisted on the citizens of this country.

Firstly are we being ripped off? if we were, why would people continue to use the bridge? if we doubled or tripled the price, the demand would fall off. Hence according to the rules of the free market, the current price is too low. If the demand is so great that it exceeds the supply of "road space" , then the price should rise to reduce demand and bring it into equilibrium with supply. therefore the fact that people continue to demand the service clearly shows the price is NOT too high.

Secondly should the government buy the bridge? Well is the reason that Microsoft make hugh profits from computer software at our expense enough to justify the government start making computers.
The government are there to help build infrastructure, if private individuals are willing to build a piece of infrastructure in return for a profit, that's fine. IF IRELAND HAD NO OTHER INFRASTRUCTURAL DEFICITS, then it may make sense for the government to buy the bridge. but we do have infrastructure deficits, and not every one of those infrastructural projects has a private individual waiting to invest in it.
Therefore the government should draw up a list of the projects, try to get private investors to take as many as possible and the government pay for the rest. Whether we like it or not, this is what the NRA HAVE DONE. When it comes to the railways, the RPA have not been as successful, partly because Iarnrod Eireann probably would not wish private individuals to build their infrastructure and sub-let it to Iarnrod Eireann. This is an avenue the Government should push Iarnrod Eireann more on.It seems to have worked for Connex with the Luas.
Thirdly removing the toll on the M50 would only make matters worse on the feeder roads around the M50. Currently there is a small percentage of people who try to avoid the M50 because of the toll, removing the toll encourages more people to use the road, in which case, there will be more traffic on the roads leading to and from the M50(have you been in tallaght or blanchardstown or quarryvale recently). Allowing the National toll roads take over the ownership of the whole of the M50, not just bridge between the N4 (dublin-sligo road) and N3 (dublin -ballyshannon road), could allow the government receive a constant income from VAT receipts and corporation tax receipts (while guaranteeing they have no expenditure on maintenance on this road ) and if they ringfenced this money and re-invested in public transport, so that there is AN ALTERNATIVE for people, maybe then the infrastructure of the country would improve.

Fourthly as regards the M50 being a car park because of the toll bridge, perhaps people should read
http://www.itscanada.ca/english/2reps2e.htm

Victor

Some good points Gerry, but do note that the Westlink is a de facto monopoly, which affects the economic analysis of it.

Separately of course, there is the effective subsidisation of large shopping centres and consequent congestion.

gerrydublin

Victor wrote:

Some good points Gerry, but do note that the Westlink is a de facto monopoly, which affects the economic analysis of it.

Separately of course, there is the effective subsidisation of large shopping centres and consequent congestion.

TRUE perhaps at present, but if the Poolbeg pennisula development plan launched by Dublin city council is anything to go by, there will be a "proper" eastern bypass of the city not some one lane road called the Eastlink.
Add this to the outer Link road between Cheeverstown (tallaght) and Adamstown, how much traffic will this take from the M50
and then a proposed c-ring road stretching from the N7 (probably around Naas) over to the M1 (Balbriggan).[ Bearing in mind, this route is still only being thought about, never mind designed or an environmental impact study carried out,]
the fact is if such routes go ahead, that will be even more competition for the M50. of course if the government buy out the m50, other infrastructure deficits will remain :mad:

As for shopping centres, a certain percentage of that traffic is at off-peak, and it makes sense to reduce the necessity for people to travel into the city if at all possible. can't imagine what the quays would be like if we all drove into the city to go shopping.
of course there's public transport as a solution:o

mobpd

gerrydublin wrote:

if we doubled or tripled the price, the demand would fall off. Hence according to the rules of the free market, the current price is too low. If the demand is so great that it exceeds the supply of "road space" , then the price should rise to reduce demand and bring it into equilibrium with supply. therefore the fact that people continue to demand the service clearly shows the price is NOT too high.

what is the "reasonable" alternative to the WestLink to get from say Red Cow to Airport? It really is a monopoly. In all other cases in business where there is a monopoly there is some sort of protection mechanism to ensure fair prices.

QuickSmart

Of course the toll should be abolished what's the point in an orbital motor way to encourage drivers to stay outside the city centre if you're going to bang a toll on it for 30 years!

Have you seen the protest Shane Ross has started, go to http://www.shane-ross.ie and send a protest message to bertie, martin cullen and NTR.

rondjon

QuickSmart wrote:

Have you seen the protest Shane Ross has started, go to http://www.shane-ross.ie and send a protest message to bertie, martin cullen and NTR.

Just beware, Shane Ross will only really care what you think if you're a Trinity Graduate and are eligible to vote for him to get back into the Seanad.

gerrydublin

QuickSmart wrote:

Of course the toll should be abolished what's the point in an orbital motor way to encourage drivers to stay outside the city centre if you're going to bang a toll on it for 30 years!

Have you seen the protest Shane Ross has started, go to http://www.shane-ross.ie and send a protest message to bertie, martin cullen and NTR.

"orbital" thats debatable.
Many would say there is litttle or no distinction between where the city ends and the surburbs start these days!

BrianD

rondjon wrote:

Just beware, Shane Ross will only really care what you think if you're a Trinity Graduate and are eligible to vote for him to get back into the Seanad.

Pretty unfair and glib statement from you rondjon. I am one of those voters that you refer to. To me there are two types of senators - those who are elected such as Ross and Norris from Trinity and those who are appointed after the general election by the government. The appointees seem to consist of failed Dail candidates and other persons who are being rewarded for former political careers and they quietly bide their time till the next election. The college senators have to be elected by public vote and have a history of being very vocal and independent e.g. Ross on the banks and Norris on social issues.

rondjon

BrianD wrote:

The college senators have to be elected by public vote

Do you want to re-state that???

I'm a member of the public. I cannot vote for Senator Ross, or someone that is standing against him. Therefore college senators are not elected by a public vote.

Now, to back up my supposed glib statement. It seems that Mr.Ross has rethought his website content and information gathering - I did mail him to point out the ridiculousness of his actions.

He no longer campaigns for himself as part of his M50 campaign. Those of you who checked out the site last week would have seen it.

Good enough!!!

mobpd

rondjon wrote:

I did mail him to point out the ridiculousness of his actions.

He no longer campaigns for himself as part of his M50 campaign. Those of you who checked out the site last week would have seen it.

Good enough!!!

What is ridiculous about his campaign? How on earth can a 20% rate hike be justified when you see the ENORMOUS increase in pure profits made by the NTR company last year.....

What are you referring to by "no longer campaigns for himself" - he is campaigning on behalf of all toll bridge users.

lomb

much as i hate the toll. paying 300 million for the poxy westlink bridge is not good value to the state. its liam lalwor and others who are responsible for getting the state into this mess. the bridge cost 30 million punts 12 years ago approx. with inflation its cost should be 60-70 million. if the contract says that the state will have to pay 300 million then there should be another bridge built alongside the m50 and that should be tolled at cost ie 20 cents per car.

to put it uin context the recent via bridge built in france which was a magnificint piece of engineering cost just 400 million.

gerrydublin

lomb wrote:

much as i hate the toll. paying 300 million for the poxy westlink bridge is not good value to the state. if the contract says that the state will have to pay 300 million then there should be another bridge built alongside the m50 and that should be tolled at cost ie 20 cents per car.
QUOTE]

This is something that I could not agree more with.
At a time when we need to improve our public transport to provide an alternative to private transport, and HENCE reduce the level of cars on the road, the worst thing we could do is waste € 400 million on EXISTING infrastructure.
Look at the percentage of people who take public transport in cities where there is a half-decent service. The government should take encouragement from the recent growth in the numbers taking bus/rail in areas where the service approaches that of a tolerable level.
CIE that despicable union dominanted company will actually turn in a profit this year because of the investment the government has made in bus lanes and replacement buses (although no additional buses since 2000 -economic downturn) and the investment the government has made in additional carriages on the surburban rail services as part of the NDP.
Just think how many cars that can be removed from our main arteries if we could improve our public transport even more, god forbid, perhaps one day have a truly good commuter service from Blanch to Clondlakin and on to Tallaght.
Then the traffic on the M50 would be reduced, perhaps then the National Toll Roads would reduce prices to get more people back onto their road again.
Sounds incredible unlikely if not dreamworld but all I can say is try travelling in dublin city when the DART is not running and you'll get the message! No-one really wants to have to drive into town and then face those parking charges, BUT WE HAVE NO CHOICE, and spending €400 million buying out the M50 will not reduce the cost of my parking which I can tell you is a great deal more than €3.60 per day!

rondjon

mobpd wrote:

What is ridiculous about his campaign?

I didn't say his campaign was ridiculous. I said that his actions in trying to solicit votes for his re-election to the senate as part of his M50 campaign was ridiculous.

I'm fully behind the M50 campaign. I merely resent the fact that as part of that campaign, I'm being questioned about my educational background, and being asked to register to vote by a candidate for an elections I cannot vote in.

Stick to the matter in hand Senator Ross.

rondjon

Whatever happened at that M50 meeting anyway on Wednesday?

Can't imagine it much did actually happen given the deafening silence from all concerned after the meeting, compared to the publicity before.

Victor

rondjon wrote:

Whatever happened at that M50 meeting anyway on Wednesday?

Apparently about 200 people showed up. I don't know what actually happened.

evilhomer

The only real solution to dublins traffic problems is a large subway system which stretches out as far as places like Greystones/Blessington/Newbridge/Dunboyne/Balbriggan etc... (probably further) would be better. this would also have to be supported by a quality bus service and park and ride facilities. A reasonably priced monthly ticket (that allowed transport on all public transport). Sydney Australia is a perfect example of this.

If we don't have what every other major city has how do we ever expect to control our traffic?


Lomb I agree with you totally on the second toll bridge as a viable alternative to buying out NTR, but it would have to be toll free in order for it to actually make a difference. and the exit's off the M50 would have to be upgraded otherwise you would just shift the traffic to them.

rondjon

Mr. Ross and Mr. Dunphy are very quiet at the moment. I wonder have they given up already?????

ozmo

[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/5258553?view=Eircomnet[/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Government in talks to buy back Westlink toll bridge [/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The Government is in talks to buy back the controversial Westlink toll bridge.
The National Roads Authority confirmed last night it was in talks with the Government in a bid to buy up the bridge.

National Toll Roads (NTR) has the contract to operate the M50 toll plaza, through which over 80,000 vehicles pass each day.

Toll prices increased to €1.80 in January and motorists blame the Westlink for daily peak-time gridlock on the motorway.

National Roads Authority chief Fred Barry hinted at the Oireachtas Transport Committee yesterday that it was in talks with the Government to buy NTR out of the contract - which was negotiated in the mid-1980s.

He said: "We are in discussions with the Department of Transport and others as to just what we want to do in that arena. It's all fairly commercially sensitive at the moment.

Mr Barry emphasised, however, that no negotiations on the matter were taking place with NTR, but that the feasibility of buyout proposals were being looked at by the NRA, with the intention of preparing proposals to put before the Department of Transport.

He said some dialogue between NTR and the NRA was continuing but it had to do with improvements in traffic flow on the West-Link.

[/font][/font]

D'Peoples Voice

ozmo wrote:

[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/5258553?view=Eircomnet[/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Government in talks to buy back Westlink toll bridge [/font]
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The Government is in talks to buy back the controversial Westlink toll bridge.
The National Roads Authority confirmed last night it was in talks with the Government in a bid to buy up the bridge.

National Roads Authority chief Fred Barry hinted at the Oireachtas Transport Committee yesterday that it was in talks with the Government to buy NTR out of the contract - which was negotiated in the mid-1980s.
[/font][/font]

Any mention of how many people's lives are going to be sacrificed for this buyout.
Lets not fool ourselves, the government takes with one hand while giving with another.They have a limited budget.
They had the opportunity to continue with the plan the NRA has devised for all the national roads in the country, inclduing those identified by EuroRAP Ireland as being extremely dangerous.
http://nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d1734.PDF
The plans for improving these roads will now have to be postponed.
Personally being from Dublin, I think it's funny that the Government are going to put the amount of change in my pocket before the lives of people in the countryside!
UP THE DUBS!

full forward

I think the suggestion of dropping some chewing gum into the basket after you put your money in is a bad idea. Its just vandalism. Unless you're being chased by the cops!

dunser

The 2 new lanes for Easy pass are causing severe disruption. I am travelling from Wicklow to Lucan every day and since last monday when they opend the 2 new lanes my journey times has gone from 20 minutes to 50 minutes worse than it was before the extension to Shankill opened. Its crazy.
We need to do something about this now. Imagine how bad it will be in September.

Come on People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

jumbo

BrianD wrote:

Apparently, it is not an offence to "skip the toll" on either the M50 and M1. If you tailgate behind the car in front and get through they don't have much comeback against you. There is legislation proposed that will make toll evasion punishable. Until this is introduced NTR will not remove the barriers from the Easypass lane. This effectively makes the easypass a waste of time for most motorists as there is no benefit other than being cashless system.

This is something I had been wondering about. In France and in London (or so I've heard) the toll-system operates by a camera reading your number plate and then an automatic system bills you. There's no messing about with tolls whatsoever. With EZ-pass it should be even simpler but if there's no legislation supporting it then how can it work. I personally dont mind paying the toll - maybe its not fair but thats life. What I *do* mind is the tailbacks.

As usual it appears to be down to those cocks in government.

littleox

I think that all the ministers (and public servants) who had any involvement in the awarding of the contract to NTR should be 'outed' publicly. I also think that we should be entitled to prosecute them. By giving NTR such a sweetheart deal, the govt have actually given them the M50. (atleast, as far as the exit junction before each side of the bridge) And it was built with our money.

Poster size images of all the culprits involved should be erected on the northbound margin short of the bridge, to identify them to all the crawling frustrated motorists. Estimates of the losses caused by the gridlock should be broadcast on a daily basis, until the govt are forced into rectifying the stroke that was pulled off in their name. And they could start by re-negotiating the deal with NTR. They should get rid of the bridge, replace it with a camera system and let the motorists get on with making both of them more money.

In the meantime, NTR should be told to raise barriers if there is any sign of traffic build up.

jumbo

littleox wrote:

In the meantime, NTR should be told to raise barriers if there is any sign of traffic build up.

In fairness though, I have noticed in the last while, that whenever things are exceptionally busy (bank holidays etc) they do actually raise the barriers on the basket-lanes and have attendants taking the tolls. It does speed things up a little bit. Could it be that the public pressure being brought to bear is having some effect? If even only at the grass-roots level (ie the people who have to actually work those booths and endure the constant stream of scowling motorists).

tolltroll

It is absolutely ridiculous the business approach that has been adopted on this project. Here are a few comments that I feel make sense and have yet to be brought to the table.

1 - Why is there no incentive to use Eazypass, when I signed up to it 4 years ago it was actually more expensive due to admin fees on the system.

2 - Why is it not cheaper -
NTR gets paid in advance for you using the Eazypass, ie 40 Euro minimum credit which they deduct from the CC before you actually go near the toll, they are therefore earning interest before the service is even provided.

Eazypass implemented properly should be far more productive than cash payments, more cars per hour hence higher earnings - any buiness I know allows implements bulk discounts, Why not Eazypass, seeing as their hourly earnings on Eazy pass are far higher.

Eazypass has been setup for several years now and all capital costs should be well offset. Eazypass requires minimum labour to operate, no person collecting cash, not paying Securicor / Brinks to deliver / collect takings, therefore greatly reduced overheads and cash is automayically in the Bank. Why are none of these savings passedon to the customer???

3 Bridge design is an absolute joke - when the second bridge was built why did the N4 not not join before and after the toll with a separate toll on the slip road. Basically if you are heading South, you should exit the M50 Prior to the Toll plaza and pay the tolls just before jong the N4. Heading North from the N4, you should not join the M50 untill after the toll somewhere between the Plaza and Blanch exits.

4 If you want people to use Eazypass - make it justifiable. I will probably upset a few people here but this needs a combination of a few things.
The Bulk of M50 users are all daily commuters - therefore eazy pass should be offering at the minimum, volume discounts, or a rolling discount, the more times you use it per month / quarter the cheaper it gets.
This would get people using it, then drop the cash lanes to 2/3 and let the Eazypass users get on with using it instead of waiting for an eternity to actually get to the tol where the eazypass only gains you moments.

5 Implement a proper traffic mangement system on the approach to the toll. If us daily commuters / Eazypass users are their Cash Cow then we should have be able to make proper progress along the entire M50 not just 100m before the toll.

6 Why are the tolls being inceased to pay for the widening of the M50, what about all the road tax that each motorist pays each year - One years road tax for the country to the exchequer would go along way to building an entire new M50.

7 Why is this earner not part of the National pension fund and why are monies paid to NTR being diverted to Airtricity, Irish Broadband etc and not 100% invested back into the business that the customer is crying out for and paying for.

The NTRs response about wait times, traffic volumes, road capacity and slip roads is a Cop out as far as I am concerned. There is not doubt that the M50 is under tremendous pressure but that does not hide the fact that due to complete planning and implementation incompetency the Plaza is a major factor also.

If its was soley the slip road / M50 capacity issue, then why can are there tailbacks on Saturdays and Sundays. I run a company and all I can say is that I wish it were that easy in the real world to have such a non competitive highly profitable, government protected business.

Rant over............. for now............. :mad:

Kernel

Would be funny if the government built a bridge beside the westlink, and diverted the M50 from the westlink to the new bridge. Oh how I would chuckle driving past the dead golden goose, killed by their own greed.

Oh, and if they want to get people to use easypass, they ought to have a 1euro easypass price forever and 1.80 cash price. People would soon switch when they save 80 cents.

tall chapy

The trouble with an alternative bridge on the M50, is that George Redmond and Padraig Flynn gave them such a good deal they even excluded this option by giving them the first mile of the M50 either side of the toll bridge. We have been fed the story, that nobody could have predicted the eventual numbers that would use the Toll Bridge.By putting in this clause, National Toll Roads (brainchild of Tom Roche, the founder of Roadstone and later CRH) seemed to have had an some idea car numbers would rise greatly. By controlling each side of the bridge they effectively have everyone snookered. Yet nobody in government could see this at the time.
Going forward if Bertie or whoever is in government gave someone a sweetheart deal tomorrow, and in 20 years time, we all cop on to it(whatever it is) what is in place now to ensure that no sweetheart deals are given and what sanctions are in place for sanction someone who has supplied a sweetheart deal... :rolleyes: :mad:

ismynametoolong

Dont forget the other rip off by westlink with the easy pass !!!
When your credit drops to € 12 there is an automatic top up taken on your cc . So i rang them and asked all the awkward questions like when do i get to use this € 12 Euro you taken € 40 worth of credit and only allowed me to use €28 I got really crappy answers so i kept at it and at it just to annoy them ! still did not get anywhere but enjoyed venting some annoyance at the poor unfortunate on the other end of the line .

NTR got some alledgly independent who i can only describe as an idiot to carry out a study/report on the toll bridge and he had the cheek to state on news talk 106 that the traffic jams on the m50 were nothing to do with the toll bridge and it was an optical illusion !!!!!!! My ASS

What was his brief we would like an honest independent analysis/ report that states the following !!!!!!!

Bet he got his € 100 K bill paid by NTR quick time

MrPudding

ismynametoolong wrote:

Dont forget the other rip off by westlink with the easy pass !!!
When your credit drops to € 12 there is an automatic top up taken on your cc . So i rang them and asked all the awkward questions like when do i get to use this € 12 Euro you taken € 40 worth of credit and only allowed me to use €28 I got really crappy answers so i kept at it and at it just to annoy them ! still did not get anywhere but enjoyed venting some annoyance at the poor unfortunate on the other end of the line .

A bit of a pain allright. You can reduce the amount at which they take a new payment, but there is still always dead money.

ismynametoolong wrote:

NTR got some alledgly independent who i can only describe as an idiot to carry out a study/report on the toll bridge and he had the cheek to state on news talk 106 that the traffic jams on the m50 were nothing to do with the toll bridge and it was an optical illusion !!!!!!! My ASS

I think most people are getting this bit wrong. NTR will freely admit that there are queues at the toll bridge and that they are caused by the toll bridge. Their arguement is that if you were not queuing there you would be queuing at the interchanges. In other words the toll bridge regulates the flow of traffic on the road.

I am not a defender of NTR but I think they might have a point there.

MrP

westtip

Ok let's resurrect this one. Not a post for a while and we are still sitting in queues. Good letter in the Irish Times about this one last Saturday - although for my mind the National Papers don't make enough of an issue of the disgrace of the M50 toll bridge - they should have it high on their agenda constantly until the government just does something. Here are some thoughts:

Direct Action: It worked on the bridge to the Isle of Skye, the people who lived on the island just refused to pay the tolls - they had automatic tolling and they simply kept getting court orders for not paying and let them go to hell - result the government had to buy out this PPP initiated by the Tories under Thatcher the bridge is now part of the Queen's highway. OK we can't refuse to pay the tolls, because of the barriers, so it counts this one out.

Go slow on the bridge. Hey I know this sounds crazy as we are all going slow enough. But if the truck drivers and haulage industry just parked a couple of trucks on either side of the bridge it would bring the entire motorway to a grinding halt. Sorry to all those it would inconvenience but it would continue to bring the monstrosity to the media attention again and again. The go slows on the UK motorways five years ago had a massive impact on the media.

It is only going to get worse when the tunnel opens - Trucks heading west or south will be sent through the tunnel to the M50 only to swing south on the M50 to get on the N4, N7 and N11 routes. It is going to cause complete havoc. In fact if I were a truck driver I would refuse to use the "free" tunnel only to be diverted onto a traffic jam going south on the M50 which they have to pay for the honour of sitting in. Why not crawl up the Quays and join the M50 south of the bridge. Ah I bet they didn't think of that one when they built the port tunnel.

There are other Direct Action options, semtex for the toll booths is out of the question, but a bit of super glue put on every coin you throw in the toll booth buckets might just give them the message, not to mention a bag of nails, screws, any other rubbish you find in your car. In fact the time spent in the queue could be spent cleaning the car out and depositing the lot in the toll buckets after your coins.

Of course there is democracy. A few single issue candidates in the next by-election - in every Dublin, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare constituency may just do the ticket. They would get my first preference. If they stood on the platform - We will support any party which gets into power who removes the tolls from the M50 Once the tolls are removed we will stand down for by-elections as our job will be done. There is merit in democracy. Anyone willing to take it on?

Or how about a a constitutional referendum - apparently that is almost what we would need to challenge this outrage.
Westtip:)

rondjon

westtip wrote:

Ok let's resurrect this one. Not a post for a while and we are still sitting in queues. Good letter in the Irish Times about this one last Saturday - although for my mind the National Papers don't make enough of an issue of the disgrace of the M50 toll bridge - they should have it high on their agenda constantly until the government just does something. Here are some thoughts:

Direct Action: It worked on the bridge to the Isle of Skye, the people who lived on the island just refused to pay the tolls - they had automatic tolling and they simply kept getting court orders for not paying and let them go to hell - result the government had to buy out this PPP initiated by the Tories under Thatcher the bridge is now part of the Queen's highway. OK we can't refuse to pay the tolls, because of the barriers, so it counts this one out.

Go slow on the bridge. Hey I know this sounds crazy as we are all going slow enough. But if the truck drivers and haulage industry just parked a couple of trucks on either side of the bridge it would bring the entire motorway to a grinding halt. Sorry to all those it would inconvenience but it would continue to bring the monstrosity to the media attention again and again. The go slows on the UK motorways five years ago had a massive impact on the media.

It is only going to get worse when the tunnel opens - Trucks heading west or south will be sent through the tunnel to the M50 only to swing south on the M50 to get on the N4, N7 and N11 routes. It is going to cause complete havoc. In fact if I were a truck driver I would refuse to use the "free" tunnel only to be diverted onto a traffic jam going south on the M50 which they have to pay for the honour of sitting in. Why not crawl up the Quays and join the M50 south of the bridge. Ah I bet they didn't think of that one when they built the port tunnel.

There are other Direct Action options, semtex for the toll booths is out of the question, but a bit of super glue put on every coin you throw in the toll booth buckets might just give them the message, not to mention a bag of nails, screws, any other rubbish you find in your car. In fact the time spent in the queue could be spent cleaning the car out and depositing the lot in the toll buckets after your coins.

Of course there is democracy. A few single issue candidates in the next by-election - in every Dublin, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare constituency may just do the ticket. They would get my first preference. If they stood on the platform - We will support any party which gets into power who removes the tolls from the M50 Once the tolls are removed we will stand down for by-elections as our job will be done. There is merit in democracy. Anyone willing to take it on?

Or how about a a constitutional referendum - apparently that is almost what we would need to challenge this outrage.
Westtip:)

Do you actually travel on the M50? Do you have your eyes open when you're driving on the M50? Are you Shane Ross in disguise?

It's not the Westlink that's the route of all evil on the M50. it's the very very poorly designed junctions before and after the Westlink bridge that are the main cause of the problems.

If you took the Westlink toll bridge away in the morning, you'd still be hosed getting through the section from Blanchardstown to Naas exits in both directions most of the day.

You're rant is outrageous in it's unfounded comments, and more particularly in it's incitement to committal of illegal activities.

denachoman

rondjon wrote:

Do you actually travel on the M50? Do you have your eyes open when you're driving on the M50? Are you Shane Ross in disguise?

It's not the Westlink that's the route of all evil on the M50. it's the very very poorly designed junctions before and after the Westlink bridge that are the main cause of the problems.

If you took the Westlink toll bridge away in the morning, you'd still be hosed getting through the section from Blanchardstown to Naas exits in both directions most of the day.

You're rant is outrageous in it's unfounded comments, and more particularly in it's incitement to committal of illegal activities.

Couldn't agree more rondjon. I use the M50 and the Westlink every day and the toll bridge is only ever badly backed up as a result of queues of traffic backing up onto it from the junctions either side of it. The junctions cause 95% of the problems and the toll bridge is just an easy target for people like Dunphy and Shane Ross who are trying to get cheap attention and publicity.

eirmail

zod wrote:

It should be no surprise that the share price of National Toll Roads
(NTR) has gone from €10 to €18 this year alone.

.

If it was so obvious to the writer or to anyone else that the share price was going to nearly double in a year I wonder why they didn't buy some shares in NTR a year ago.

westtip

rondjon wrote:

Do you actually travel on the M50? Do you have your eyes open when you're driving on the M50? Are you Shane Ross in disguise?

It's not the Westlink that's the route of all evil on the M50. it's the very very poorly designed junctions before and after the Westlink bridge that are the main cause of the problems.

If you took the Westlink toll bridge away in the morning, you'd still be hosed getting through the section from Blanchardstown to Naas exits in both directions most of the day.

You're rant is outrageous in it's unfounded comments, and more particularly in it's incitement to committal of illegal activities.

Yes of course I travel on the M50, Yes I have my eyes open, No I am not Shane Ross in disguise. but clearly you must work as a PRO for NTR.

The junctions are designed poorly on the M50, but they do not cause the major backlog, which is daily caused by the jackkifed truck called the toll barriers, If it is not the toll gates which cause the problems could you please explain why the traffic flows reasonably well either side of the toll gates??

Taking the toll booths away would make a significant difference to traffic flows on the M50, please don't bore me by saying otherwise. Of course traffic would still be slow in the mornings, that is the nature of the rush hour whereever you live. We flatter ourselves saying we need a three lane motorway around a small provincial city like Dublin and comparisons of the M50 with the M25 are laughable, although you didn't do this I have seen it in other places. Teh M25 is a motorway around a global metropolis, and surprisingly, despite the urban myths, traffic flows reasonably well on it, notwithstanding accidents - in particular since they introduced variable speed limits and have attempted to educate drivers to drive at a reasonable median speed. Speed limits are strictly adhered to because the photo gantries are so efficient at catching speedsters. With good traffic control the traffic on the M50 could move at a median speed of 40/45 mph in the mornings if managed properly - it is the toll gates which screw it up.

As for the incitement to misbehave on the toll gates. The suggested go-slow would be a statement by all those who don't share your view and do actually believe someone needs to be told to wake up to the fact; the toll gates on the M50 are a national disgrace. If they were working so well by the way why would the NRA have set such strict service level agreements on the toll operators who will be managing the M4 between Kilcock and Kinnegad - take a look at page 2 of todays Irish Times and I quote directly:

"The deal between the NRA and toll operator, Irish Spanish consortium Eurolink, is set to be a model for all toll road schemes. However it will not apply to Dublins East Link or to the notorious M50 West Link toll bridge"

I think the word "notorious" from this quote just about sums up the West link position, let us continue with the Irish Times and the quote from the NRA in that journal today:

"the West Link has not been a good experience for the motorist and we have no desire to repeat it" these are not my words but the words of the NRA, I do believe they shoudl know something about road management - although at times I do not agree with everything they say, do or plan.

To continue from the Irish Times:

"The NRA is concerned that reduced travel times and better journey experiences should not in future be whittled away by queuing at toll booths. It said yesterday the agreement (for the new M4 section) meant that if about five or six cars were queuing at toll in future PPP schemes the barriers would open" Can you imagine this on the M50 West Link! - I am not sure which planet you are actually on to be in denial about the role the toll gates play in screwing up the M50. All I know is that to drive from the N11/M50 junction (ie the start of the motorway) to the Airport - a journey of about 17 miles on a motorway- even at non peak times you need to allow 45 minutes, to take account of the toll booth delays. In other words you pay a toll to travel at a median speed of about 25 mph. Acceptable? I think not.

I suggest you take a look at the Service Level Agreement in place on the new M4 secton and compare it with the service delivery on the West link, my post was not a rant, it was a statement of well founded opinion, which has been well documented by many commentators in the past. Did you listen to Olivia O'Leary on five seven live the day the great Transport 21 was announced, she simply said Lift the gates and let the motorway flow. A view shared by many others.

Will I have my super glue ready on my coins ready for the next trip through the toll buckets? not yet decided, others can do as they will. In the meantime we can agree to differ in opinion. If you want a rant then listen to yourself, otherwise let's try to stick to rational discussion.

RainyDay

westtip wrote:

Ok let's resurrect this one. Not a post for a while and we are still sitting in queues. Good letter in the Irish Times about this one last Saturday - although for my mind the National Papers don't make enough of an issue of the disgrace of the M50 toll bridge - they should have it high on their agenda constantly until the government just does something. Here are some thoughts:

Direct Action: It worked on the bridge to the Isle of Skye, the people who lived on the island just refused to pay the tolls - they had automatic tolling and they simply kept getting court orders for not paying and let them go to hell - result the government had to buy out this PPP initiated by the Tories under Thatcher the bridge is now part of the Queen's highway. OK we can't refuse to pay the tolls, because of the barriers, so it counts this one out.

Go slow on the bridge. Hey I know this sounds crazy as we are all going slow enough. But if the truck drivers and haulage industry just parked a couple of trucks on either side of the bridge it would bring the entire motorway to a grinding halt. Sorry to all those it would inconvenience but it would continue to bring the monstrosity to the media attention again and again. The go slows on the UK motorways five years ago had a massive impact on the media.

It is only going to get worse when the tunnel opens - Trucks heading west or south will be sent through the tunnel to the M50 only to swing south on the M50 to get on the N4, N7 and N11 routes. It is going to cause complete havoc. In fact if I were a truck driver I would refuse to use the "free" tunnel only to be diverted onto a traffic jam going south on the M50 which they have to pay for the honour of sitting in. Why not crawl up the Quays and join the M50 south of the bridge. Ah I bet they didn't think of that one when they built the port tunnel.

There are other Direct Action options, semtex for the toll booths is out of the question, but a bit of super glue put on every coin you throw in the toll booth buckets might just give them the message, not to mention a bag of nails, screws, any other rubbish you find in your car. In fact the time spent in the queue could be spent cleaning the car out and depositing the lot in the toll buckets after your coins.

Of course there is democracy. A few single issue candidates in the next by-election - in every Dublin, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare constituency may just do the ticket. They would get my first preference. If they stood on the platform - We will support any party which gets into power who removes the tolls from the M50 Once the tolls are removed we will stand down for by-elections as our job will be done. There is merit in democracy. Anyone willing to take it on?

Or how about a a constitutional referendum - apparently that is almost what we would need to challenge this outrage.
Westtip:)

You realise that all that your recommendations will result (with the possible exception of the 'democracy' one) in further delays at the toll bridge. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

On the democracy issue, why are you waiting for someone else to take it on? If this is so important, why aren't you running for election yourself?

westtip

RainyDay wrote:

You realise that all that your recommendations will result (with the possible exception of the 'democracy' one) in further delays at the toll bridge. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

On the democracy issue, why are you waiting for someone else to take it on? If this is so important, why aren't you running for election yourself?

No pain no gain on the issue of blocking the bridge. A few trucks parked on the bridge for a couple of hours or on a go slow would make it national news - do it again and again and again they might must get the message. Bring the M50 to a grinding halt and they might just sit up and see people really are mad about this issue :mad: Don't get me wrong I actually haven't got a probleme with tolls - which is why the SLA's being put in place by the NRA on the M4 (see yesterdays Irish times and my post above) are so welcome. The NRA know the situation is dire on the West link and it must drive them mad. The main problem with the M50 toll is it is such bad value for money - you pay to travel slowly. you travel slowly because of the inefficiencies of the payment scheme. Apart from that - the contract for NTR was so poorly put together and highly suspect in terms of brown envelopes, it was after all signed on our behalf by George Redmond and PD flynn, the state should tear it up and say enough is enough, just because it is clearly a bad contract and protected by the holy grail of the law doesn't mean to say the Government of the day shouldn't do something about. They make the laws which govern the country and should address this issue forthwith - why? because so many people are saying so - and guess what it is the citizens of the country they are supposed to represent not the vested interests of NTR.

On the standing for TD issue - it would need a critical mass to make it worthwhile - standing in one constituency would be meaningless, stand in about 20 constituencies in Dublin/Leinster would have the effect of saying - this is an issue a lot of people care about. ACting as one person will not work, Acting as a group would, apart from that I can't afford to stand in an election.

westtip

RainyDay wrote:

On the democracy issue, why are you waiting for someone else to take it on? If this is so important, why aren't you running for election yourself?

Seems Martin "e-voting" Cullen and his cronies are finally waking up to the fact people are p.....ed off with this situation. Give them some direct action out with the Superglue, get the coins covered, screw up the toll bridge.

Sizzler

How the fook are they going to charge all the eastern european cars if they go ahead with that magical idea of taking pics of car regs? That wud be some laugh wudnt it....

westtip

Saddler wrote:

How the fook are they going to charge all the eastern european cars if they go ahead with that magical idea of taking pics of car regs? That wud be some laugh wudnt it....

Not to mention all the cars from the other jurisdiction on this small island of ours. Mind you fair play to the North they gave GB a great send off.

RainyDay

westtip wrote:

Seems Martin "e-voting" Cullen and his cronies are finally waking up to the fact people are p.....ed off with this situation.

That's a fairly naive interpretation. They are actually waking up to the fact that there is an election just 18 months away.

westtip wrote:

Give them some direct action out with the Superglue, get the coins covered, screw up the toll bridge.

OK - give us a rest with the ranting. Just go out there tomorrow & do it and let's see what happens. Less talk, more action.

zod

bought out see here