Happiness - our natural state

Transform

Just a quick post that relates to the brilliant story about the 2 guys in the hospital.

IN regards to happiness i know from experience that if i were to want happiness or for something to make me happy it does not work that way. I am always happy and only give this happiness up when i choose to let outside influences affect me (oh i am much better than the angry early 20 year old that i was!!), thus the phrase "we are about as happy as we make up our minds to be".

Many of philosophers of the world have spoken on happienss being our natual state and seeking it or wanting more of it will never work as the effects are transient, socrates, plato, bertrand russell, jesus, the bahagavad gita etc

Excellent story again

Pherekydes

Transform wrote:

...are transient, socrates, plato, bertrand russell, jesus, the bahagavad gita etc

What does this mean? I understand something that is transient, but what is something that is Bertrand Russell, or something that is Socrates?

Fysh

Transform wrote:

IN regards to happiness i know from experience that if i were to want happiness or for something to make me happy it does not work that way. I am always happy and only give this happiness up when i choose to let outside influences affect me (oh i am much better than the angry early 20 year old that i was!!), thus the phrase "we are about as happy as we make up our minds to be".

Intriguing, to say the least. So, your natural state is to be happy except when you interact with the outside world? How do you spend your days then, in some sort of cocoon like the kid in Bubble Boy? Given that our emotions are in part dictated by chemical shifts in the brain, I don't lend much weight to statements like the one you've quoted there (particularly since in my experience they're a favourite tool of lifeless corporate HR droids who somehow think that such banalities are not only deep but also inspirational, when for many people they are neither). If I'm clinically depressed, I can choose to be happy and jolly as much as I like, it doesn't stop me from having an illness which prevents me from actually feeling happy all the time.

Transform wrote:

Many of philosophers of the world have spoken on happienss being our natual state and seeking it or wanting more of it will never work as the effects are transient, socrates, plato, bertrand russell, jesus, the bahagavad gita etc

What? What on earth does this mean? Firstly, if something is our natural state then why would we need to seek it? Secondly, what effects are transient? And thirdly, if you're going to try and draw together the works of those philosophers, please explain how you've reached this conclusion. I for one would appreciate either links to relevant material or suggested books where you've drawn the ideas from.

Goodshape

I think he's saying that happiness can not be attained by 'searching' for it. It's a state of mind and so is wanting more of it. The want will create unhappiness.

Buddhists refer to the transience as the 'misery of change'. This is the short-term happiness brought on by new possessions, things, toys.. whatever turns you on. Basically when you go to bed at night, or when these new things become old things, you will be just as unhappy and will have learned nothing.

For true and lasting happiness you must look within yourself.

Fysh

Goodshape wrote:

I think he's saying that happiness can not be attained by 'searching' for it. It's a state of mind and so is wanting more of it. The want will create unhappiness.

Goodshape wrote:

For true and lasting happiness you must look within yourself.

Please don't tell me I'm the only one who sees the contradiction here. To find lasting happiness, I have to look within myself, but also not actually look because the looking will create unhappiness. You also seem to be claiming that wanting to be happy creates unhappiness, as opposed to being the logical result of being unhappy.

I'm perfectly happy to accept that searching for happiness through material things is not guaranteed to bring happiness unless one is an extremely shallow individual who has no other needs. But I'm not convinced by this idea that happiness can be genuine and permanent by simply deciding that one is going to be happy. That's like saying you won't get hit by a car when you cross the street if you decide not to get hit by one, but don't bother doing anything like look both ways before stepping onto the tarmac.

Goodshape

Didn't realise the Pedantic Orginisation was in today (or is that the Pedantic Assosiation?!).

Look within yourself and realise there is nothing without that can deliever you to happiness. Therefor, stop looking. Be happy and get on with life.

That's simplification to the extreem, but I think it's on the right track. It annoys me when people reply to a post saying "Why don't we just be happy" with "Don't be so ****ing stupid!" or similar. This is a philosophy board... be a bit more construtive, maybe?

bus77

Fysh is right, this is a load of crap. I got sad trying to reply to it.

Fysh

Goodshape wrote:

Didn't realise the Pedantic Orginisation was in today (or is that the Pedantic Assosiation?!).

Actually, it would likely be either the Pedantic Organisation or the Pedant Association. Spelling things wrong when trying to criticise me for being pedantic just makes you look a bit silly.

Goodshape wrote:

Look within yourself and realise there is nothing without that can deliever you to happiness. Therefor, stop looking. Be happy and get on with life.

You are telling people who are unhappy to just "be happy". If they are unhappy, this answer is not helping them achieve the state they presumably desire, just telling them to achieve it (an action that could be considered to be anything from unhelpful to insulting). Furthermore, in the case of unhappiness brought on by emotional distress or illness, it's a frankly stupid answer that fails utterly to take account of the circumstances.

Goodshape wrote:

That's simplification to the extreem, but I think it's on the right track. It annoys me when people reply to a post saying "Why don't we just be happy" with "Don't be so ****ing stupid!" or similar.

I didn't say anyone was being "f*cking stupid", I pointed out that many people, myself included, are wary of such saccharine messages, especially at christmas time, because they tend to be about as genuine as a heineken-fuelled declaration of undying love.

I've already asked the original poster to explain what his post meant in more detail as well as raising the question of how this notion applies to people with mental illness.

Moreover, I would ask you this : why the raging hard-on for happiness? If you subscribe to the attitude of the original poster (who I note has not returned since then, in the finest traditions of vague posts on this board) then you have a fear bordering on mania of being exposed to any other emotional state. Personally, while I prefer being happy to being sad, I'm open to other emotions and don't feel the need to embark on a quest to attain lasting happiness. Furthermore, I don't think that such a state is possible - emotions can only really be apprecitated through contrast, so that happiness only really takes on its full character if you have also experienced sadness, anger, etc. So why do you need to "be happy" in particular, instead of just getting on with life? And why is your decision to simply "be happy" any better or less worthy of contempt than other people's ways of trying to find happiness?

Lastly : I will offer constructive posts and criticism when I see an idea that's worth it. When I see apparent nonsense that isn't even internally consistent, however, I make no such promises.

Transform

Sorry fornot replying sooner - was out having a good time over the weekend with friends and buying yet more xmas presents

Furthermore, in the case of unhappiness brought on by emotional distress or illness, it's a frankly stupid answer that fails utterly to take account of the circumstances.undefined

I totally agree - if someone died then i am hardly going to tell them to not concern themselves of it, 'get on with life' and stay happy. The words said will be relevant to the circumstances.

Yes there will be periods when grief, sorrow and depression are outwardly present and this is just later revealed to be like a veil over a light - not allowing the light to shine fully and still knowing that the light can shine with all its brightness when the veil is removed.

because they tend to be about as genuine as a heineken-fuelled declaration of undying love
Yes they do - as do most movies, xmas songs and seeing the old friends over this period that you have not seen for a long time.

how this notion applies to people with mental illnessundefined
I realise that many people with mental illness suffer as a result of chemical imbalances and need drug treatment. Yet, the majority of aid given to these people consists of digging up the past with in my opinion does not make the process any better. A quote i read recently went - "its a bit like treating someone with a broken leg by throwing them down the stairs until they magically feel better!".
“An emotion which causes suffering ceases to be my suffering once I gain a clear image of it”
Baruch De Spinoza

If you were to ask a person who 'has' depression to show it to you what response would you get? I have successfully worked with lots of people with these conditions (through using a combination of many systems - one of which is philosophy) and know that from my experience (for example depression) the state exists as part of how they are running their brain i.e. what they are telling themselves, how they are representing their beliefs in their mind and even in how they hold their physiology. “The greatest discovery of any generation is that human beings can alter their lives by altering their attitudes of mind”
Albert Schweitzer

Furthermore, I don't think that such a state is possible - emotions can only really be apprecitated through contrast, so that happiness only really takes on its full character if you have also experienced sadness, anger, etc.

Well if that is true please do not tell all the kids at xmas as i think they will have enough to deal with, what with the speculation about friends telling them there is no santa. Look at any child and if you have kids of your own you know that their natural state is one of happiness and bliss. Yes they cry and cry with much more intensity than you or i can muster, and it is all forgotten an hour later. Now when an adult crys you can notice it then next day!! I certainly will not be telling mine to go not get too happy because sadness is just around the corner waiting.
"I know a lot of people without brains who do an awful lot of talking". - The Scarecrow, Wizard of Oz

So why do you need to "be happy" in particular, instead of just getting on with life? And why is your decision to simply "be happy" any better or less worthy of contempt than other people's ways of trying to find happinessundefined?

Again, happines is our natural state. One we do not have to seek or find. I have spent time with people racked with pain (pain which you or i hopefully will never feel) and they still remained in a state of bliss.

“By changing what he knows about the world, man changes the world he knows. By changing the world in which he lives, man changes himself”
Theodosus Dobzhansky

Transform

Sorry i don't know how to do all the quote inserts yet!

bus77

I think people get a natural boost at this time of year because of the seasons.
Think about it, we are entering a time of heavy cold and snow. Years ago this would have been the time of year when humans needed to start preparing to gather food. Also to stay indoors with each other for a long period. A natural boost at this time of year would have been essential to survival.

Also I think it might be natural for some to get depressed this time of year aswell. Careing for such individuals would have also helped strengthen the bond of the tribe for the winter, and the coming year.

As people get this natural(perhaps institutionalized now) boost. thoughts become more clear, and it is seen as a sign that they have found the golden ticket to happyness. Certainly this will lead to a good start for the year.

Goodshape

I considered changing the spellings actually, but thought the irony was worth it. I was brought up with spell-checkers

Fysh wrote:

You are telling people who are unhappy to just "be happy". If they are unhappy, this answer is not helping them achieve the state they presumably desire, just telling them to achieve it

I never suggested any corse of action and never mentioned anything about obtaining (or maintaining) good health - either physically or emotionally. I think you'll find that stuff on the PI forum.

What I think was being discussed is the idea that happiness can be found without the need for any external stimuli and, I suppose, wheather or not that sentiment is better kept to christmas cards.

many people, myself included, are wary of such saccharine messages, especially at christmas time, because they tend to be about as genuine as a heineken-fuelled declaration of undying love.

Re-reading this thread since I got back to Ireland (been in Prague for two months) I can see what you mean. Heard my first christmas song on the way back from the airport. It's tough to block that stuff out.

Moreover, I would ask you this : why the raging hard-on for happiness? If you subscribe to the attitude of the original poster (..) then you have a fear bordering on mania of being exposed to any other emotional state.

I don't need to believe something to discuss it. It would be a bit of a paradox in any case - would I be constently happy, or constently fearful? Fearful I assume. Just didn't think the post warrented the abuse. The guys new here after all.

Fysh

Transform wrote:

Fysh wrote:

Furthermore, in the case of unhappiness brought on by emotional distress or illness, it's a frankly stupid answer that fails utterly to take account of the circumstances.

I totally agree - if someone died then i am hardly going to tell them to not concern themselves of it, 'get on with life' and stay happy. The words said will be relevant to the circumstances.

What? I honestly don't get this bit. If the words are still relevant, why not say them at the time? More importantly, how are they still relevant? (I maintain that they are not relevant and do not make sense in that context, therefore one does not say them out of appreciation of what the person is going through at the time).

Transform wrote:

Yes there will be periods when grief, sorrow and depression are outwardly present and this is just later revealed to be like a veil over a light - not allowing the light to shine fully and still knowing that the light can shine with all its brightness when the veil is removed.

Again, what? As far as I can tell, you're suggesting that sometimes depression/grief/happiness are simply not genuine, but that the person concerned is somehow aware of this falseness. I have no idea how this is supposed to work. Unless we're talking about minimoshers and the nu-metal trend for claiming to be depressed at the drop of a hat...

Transform wrote:

Fysh wrote:

because they tend to be about as genuine as a heineken-fuelled declaration of undying love

Yes they do - as do most movies, xmas songs and seeing the old friends over this period that you have not seen for a long time.

You seem to have misunderstood me utterly - I was stating that these sentiments are not genuine, and yet you seem to have assumed that I meant they were. Such sentiments are so generic and devoid of individuality or personality that to many people, myself included, they have no meaning. The Hallmark reference was meant to point out that many companies use such bland statements of "festive cheer" as a way of selling products, further removing any genuine meaning the statement might have originally had.

Transform wrote:

Fysh wrote:

how this notion applies to people with mental illness

I realise that many people with mental illness suffer as a result of chemical imbalances and need drug treatment. Yet, the majority of aid given to these people consists of digging up the past with in my opinion does not make the process any better. A quote i read recently went - "its a bit like treating someone with a broken leg by throwing them down the stairs until they magically feel better!". ?An emotion which causes suffering ceases to be my suffering once I gain a clear image of it?Baruch De Spinoza
If you were to ask a person who 'has' depression to show it to you what response would you get? I have successfully worked with lots of people with these conditions (through using a combination of many systems - one of which is philosophy) and know that from my experience (for example depression) the state exists as part of how they are running their brain i.e. what they are telling themselves, how they are representing their beliefs in their mind and even in how they hold their physiology.

Let me get this straight. First you state that "digging up the past" does not help people resolve the problem of depression. Then you later say that the state is due to how they run their brains.

Now, quite how you suggest one changes how they run their brain without first examining how they are currently doing so, and considering where this is going to cause problems, is beyond me. When you couple this with problems of a chemical nature (such as those which are related to imbalances in, say, serotonin levels in the brain), I haven't got the faintest idea of how your "solution" works, all I have is experience of several friends and acquaintances who have been in the position and who would still be in the same state if they had been treated by your methods. I do agree that Scientologist-style methods which involve constantly remembering traumatic past experiences don't fix the problem (and often exacerbate it), but having known several people who have needed anti-depressants as part of their treatment, I don't agree that these problems can be solved simply through what appear to be extended pep talks.

Transform wrote:

Fysh wrote:

Furthermore, I don't think that such a state is possible - emotions can only really be apprecitated through contrast, so that happiness only really takes on its full character if you have also experienced sadness, anger, etc

.

Well if that is true please do not tell all the kids at xmas as i think they will have enough to deal with, what with the speculation about friends telling them there is no santa. Look at any child and if you have kids of your own you know that their natural state is one of happiness and bliss. Yes they cry and cry with much more intensity than you or i can muster, and it is all forgotten an hour later. Now when an adult crys you can notice it then next day!! I certainly will not be telling mine to go not get too happy because sadness is just around the corner waiting.

Oh no! Dear lord! You mean that they might have to deal with something that makes them sad? EL HORROR! Rather than try and teach them that there is nothing wrong with feeling sad sometimes and that emotions are not something that we should ever be ashamed of, you seem to be advocating the idea of teaching kids to avoid feeling sad and therefore causing them to repress any thoughts or memories which cause sadness. Which do you think is more likely to cause them to have to visit a therapist in future : trying to teach them how to cope with the full range of emotions that a healthy mind can experience, or telling them to repress anything that's not "happy"?

Now, you will notice that I did not at any point say that people should not be "too happy". What I said was that I did not have a fear of other emotional states; I am prepared to cope with the reality of the world, which is that in the ongoing progress of my life I will at some points be confronted with emotions other than happiness. You, apparently, are not, and seem to have an aggressive and illogical response to such a notion (possibly explaining how you managed to misinterpret my post in such a way - I mean, how else do you get from "I'm open to other emotions and don't feel the need to embark on a quest to attain lasting happiness" to "don't get too happy because sadness is just around the corner waiting"?).

Transfrom wrote:

"I know a lot of people without brains who do an awful lot of talking". - The Scarecrow, Wizard of Oz

You seem to believe that posting quotes without explaining why they're relevant to your argument will somehow make your post seem deeper or more weighty. I assure you this is not the case, and wonder why exactly you think this particular quote is in any way relevant to the discussion at hand, unless it's intended as a not-particularly-subtle way of suggesting that people who disagree with you (such as me) have no brains.

Transform wrote:

Fysh wrote:

So why do you need to "be happy" in particular, instead of just getting on with life? And why is your decision to simply "be happy" any better or less worthy of contempt than other people's ways of trying to find happiness?

Again, happines is our natural state. One we do not have to seek or find. I have spent time with people racked with pain (pain which you or i hopefully will never feel) and they still remained in a state of bliss.

I disagree that happiness is our natural state - I don't think there's a common "ground" state for human beings, and I certainly don't believe that nobody needs to search for happiness in order to attain it. Any "natural" or ground emotional state we have will be heavily dependent on upbringing - victims of abused childhoods often need extensive deprogramming/reprogramming therapy sessions to allow them to feel what our contemporary society considers to be happiness. Sex abuse victims, for example, often find it extremely difficult to form the kind of trust and relationships that we consider normal as a result of their experiences - such relationships are normally a source of happiness for people, and yet here we have people who become distressed at the very suggestion of such a thing.

Transform

Fysh i must go for xmas now and do not have time to give a detailed response,so catch up with the discussion in a few days and i am in no was agressive in my comments so sorry if you picked it up that way.
Chat again soon and enjoy the xmas
p.s. i totally agree that everyone should be taught to deal with all emotions if thats what works for them and you can using your own words 'deprogram' anyone without having to dig up the past through NLP- Neuro lingustic programming. It does involve imagary work for the client without them having to describe uncomfortable detail for the person treating them and the client

Fysh

Transform wrote:

Fysh i must go for xmas now and do not have time to give a detailed response,so catch up with the discussion in a few days and i am in no was agressive in my comments so sorry if you picked it up that way.

I was actually going to post something similar myself - there's been a bit of a tendency for vaguely-worded nonsense to get posted on this board a lot so I have a tendency to fly off the handle a bit if I see something that looks that way. Sorry if I've come across that way.

Transform wrote:

p.s. i totally agree that everyone should be taught to deal with all emotions if thats what works for them and you can using your own words 'deprogram' anyone without having to dig up the past through NLP- Neuro lingustic programming. It does involve imagary work for the client without them having to describe uncomfortable detail for the person treating them and the client

I don't know anything about NLP, could you give a bit more info about it? Would be interesting to learn about. Also, what do you mean by "if thats what works for them" in the context of people learning how to deal with emotions?