Munster would win Heino NP if O'Driscoll wore red

uberwolf

Or so a recent mid season pundit put it in one of the wknd papers.

Now munster are crap past no.10 no one knows how to use cullen in that side.

But Leinsters forwards aren't that far behind Munsters. 4 0f the 8 are picked in preference in a full strength Irish side. So was this rubbish? or is there an element of truth?

Nukem

Small element of truth id say.
Munster backs just dont seem to be firing on all cylinders. Kelly is sorely missed. Horgan is gone off the boil a bit. Lawlor is too small. Mullins getting old. Hendo - the guy has a step why doesnt he use it instead of trying to cream anyone in front of him. Payne-think he is real good and is wasted on the wing.

The Leinster pack have come along way. Need new blood in the front row and No.8 Dead impressed with the new flanker - young guy scored against Bourgoin in Lans. Munster pack are running riot but will ultimately suffer due to not enough front rows coimin through - Look at Cahill hes bloody huge but never gets his Game.

CJhaughey

I thought Cahill was gone?
I was under the impression McIlwham was his replacement?

Nukem

CJhaughey wrote:

I thought Cahill was gone?

Sorry your right. Its the young fella. You know hes so bloody big he has 2 lumps in the bck of his neck.Oh whats his name

uberwolf

oh yeah saw him play a while back in some CL game I think. Not exactly teh new breed of mobile front row though...


Anyway. Is BOD all that munster need? and are Leinster realistically that far behind Munster in teh forward stakes?

Nukem

Christ no! Leainster had a great game against Bourgoin but the backs were just something, Horgans ability to mix crash and swerve and he off loads in the tackles due to his height not a bother, Contepomi what can ya say class.
BOD as of late. Darcy is returning this weekend and think its nice that Kidney has a headache in the backs as Gaffney does in the forwards.
Still gutted for O'Meara,happened to him in Munster and now in Leainster - been outshone

GreenHell

I'm optimistic that the munster backs will start to gel over the christmas. Our 9 and 10 have been off with the internationals for most of the season and everything looked a bit forced when the ball moved out wide last saturday. Burke made a huge difference when moving the ball around, having trained with the backs from day one.

Don't think Payne is much use in the centre, seems a bit slow to offload. Now Cullen in the centre I'd like to see that tried. Mossie has great potential but doesn't seem to be rising above CL standard, I hope we don't have another Stanton situation on our hands.

daveirl

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Nukem

Thats a bit harsh isnt it?
I mean Leainster arent Munster in the forwards but Munster aint Leinster in the backs. MOK is a great player i think and id pick him over Donnacha at the mo caus of Donnacha's inconsistencey.
Reggie isnt the same playing for Ireland and Leinster (sorry)
He plays harder in the green and ya notice it but Marcus is the future and is better around he pitch its Reggies scrummaging that keeps him out.

daveirl

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Nukem

Cant believe im arguing on behalf of the Leinster Team :eek:
Anyways not doubting the abilities of Donnacha its just he is trying too hard at the moment,he is better when is relaxed and he playes better.
Good example is him saying

Don't want to let the lads down after last years semi so no silly fighting

and he gets sent to the bin in 8mins He is a better player than MOK but just not at the mo.

Just out of interest who would you pick on top form MOK or DOC?
And Marcus needs to improve the Scrum side of his game its a bigger step from HC to Inter and he has proven that unfortuanetly :mad:

daveirl

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Nukem

daveirl wrote:

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I dunno anymore. I will give reggie has to go and Marcus is better for Ireland but in terms of scrummaging he aint that good.He has a Keith Wood Qualkitya round the park but just lacks the bulk of some Props out there.

He struggles against big props

uberwolf

daveirl wrote:

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that old adage, forwards win you matches, backs determine by how much

daveirl

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uberwolf

I'm an armchair fan. So the backs magic is easier for me to see than the forwards. The scrum is a mystery to me (anyone know a good read that'd explain it and tactics to me?)

I can see easily that munster pack is streets ahead of Leinsters. But they(L) are not a bad unit. I wasn't trying to start a Munster V Leinster debate (especially without Peadar and Al to back me up) . More I was curious about the assertion that 1) O'D was that good to make the difference 2) Surely Munster would need more than 2 world class backs. They really have seemed to have nothing but an up your jumper approach front and back. 3) are leinsters forwards further behind Munsters forwards than Leinsters backs are ahead of Munsters Backs.

I find 3 hard to believe. All leinsters forwards need to do is provide a platform. In truth thats all the Irish pack does. I've seldom seen the Irish pack as an offensive weapon against top class opposition. Holding their own is the best we can hope for to release D'Arcy, Murphy, Hickie, O'D.

daveirl

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Mungaman

The scrum is a mystery to me (anyone know a good read that'd explain it and tactics to me?)

Uber if you want a guide to the scrum put on a Jersey with a number less than 4 and join a local team.Its miriad of technical movements and **** hard pressure. (90%of what happens up front is down to individual tactics and nearly all front rows have their own tricks. There is easy stuff to pick up on the telly like not binding properly, boring in ( when the prop hits his opposite at an angle towards his opposing hooker) pulling a scrum down if its a stock standard. But the rest is years and years of 1,000s upon 1,000s of scrums. Consider you have an average pack weight of up to 900kgs these days all pushing in one direction its not something you can't afford to get wrong.

As for the D O'C scenario I really belive that he is an awesome player. I know its not going to happen but I think responsability might sort him out. Give him the Captaincy of the mid week team or a few games as Captain of the pack maybe? MOK hasn't got to many years left in him so either way DOC is going to get a long reign at 5. I would like to see him get a game at six I think he is def mobile enough, extra jumper in the line out and as agressive as a fat bird in tight jeans.

GreenHell

Leinster are in a great chance of winning the HEC this year. I don't think their pack is as feather weight as it was and I don't see a full strenght leinster pack being bullied around the field.

Munsters problem in the backs it fairly simple I think. Their taking the ball static. What good is a crash ball centre if his taking the ball standing still. Also Hendo has got a good step, I think we'll see our centres improving over christmas. The gaffer seems to have decided on his centre partnership for this season, Hendo and Mullins, tbh I think they'll start to perform. Our next problem is out wide. Speedster are coming up through the ranks but there 1 or 2 seasons at least away. Just hope that Devlin produces the goods today.

daveirl

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bucks73

While Kelly, Payne and Horgan are good solid wingers they have not got the deadly pace needed at the highest level to leave defences behind.

But the main problem IMO are the centres. Hendo, Mullins and Holland just dont have the pace any more to break defences or cant get the ball out quick enough. Thats why Cullen sees so little of the ball and some people still criticise him. As if its his fault he doesnt get good ball.

I would love to see someone like Henson playing in the centre for Munster. Excellent player who would give us another dimesion at centre.

There are players out there who could be signed up to form a formidable back line.

Nukem

bucks7 wrote:

There are players out there who could be signed up to form a formidable back line.

Who? Anyone in mind. Is there a site where the do contracts and who is available. People always know when soccer players are coming to the end of contracts.

RuggieBear

bucks73 wrote:

There are players out there who could be signed up to form a formidable back line.

Irish players...!!? how many foreigners (or naturalised Irishmen) are in the Munster backline at the moment....

This is the starting backline agaisnt the Ospreys:
C Cullen; S Payne, M Mullins, R Henderson, P Devlin; R O'Gara (Captain), P Stringer.

Only 2 of them learned their rugby in Munster.....the rest are imports.

daveirl

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RuggieBear

TBH, I don't really know the underage circuit anymore....when i was in school i could tell you who was going to become a senior international and who wasn't (not to difficult really....considering the Irish schools sides from 1995 and 1996.....Getting too old now .

So are these young munster backs gonna make the step up!!!? Leinster keep producing quality backs who then flatter to deceive or take longer than expected to flourish.....Norton, Lewis, Burke, O'Riorden, etc. I suppose even D'Arcy falls into this category as he was within weeks of loosing his Leinster contract.....

RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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Yeah, thought that was a ****ing bull**** decison....how long is Storey's contract for?

bucks73

That has been a problem for a few years now. Munster Branch giving big contracts to players who arent worth a crap. That Storey is absolutely useless.

Gaffney goes back home for the summer and doesnt bother scouting around Europe or Ireland looking for up and coming players.

There must be young Irish players who can run 100 metres in 11-12 seconds that, with coaching, can be turned into quality wingers.

Watching the Sky highlights of round 3 of the HC a few weeks ago and Treviso had a winger named Canale who looked very impressive. Has played for Italy and is big, strong with plenty of pace. He will probably be snapped up by another club pretty soon.

Im sure Gavin Henson would leave given the right amount of money. Get rid of Storey, Devlin, Holland and Mullins and give their money to Henson.

Try and get Geordan Murphy back. Obviously you would have to pay him big money also but it would be paid back in shirt sales and getting rid of a few of the guys who are no good or past it.

HC team should made up of players on decent/big money and the Celtic League team made up mainly of guys playing for their contracts mixed with some experienced players.

RuggieBear

bucks73 wrote:

That has been a problem for a few years now. Munster Branch giving big contracts to players who arent worth a crap. That Storey is absolutely useless.

At least Munster Branch haven't made a mistake of eddie Hecknui dimensions yet.....Leinster have had a few useless foreighners....can't think of the second row's name but he was a useless POS

daveirl

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RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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That's very true....i think D'arcy and O'driscoll are the best centres in the home nations by far....i reckon the french centres on form are absolute quality tho!

Munster just need to forget about their backs and play the 10 man game with the odd back line move to keep the opposition guessing....Those tactics with a well drilled pack will win you most games....

daveirl

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GreenHell

daveirl wrote:

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Not really by all accounts it was a day for the forwards.

Snickers Man

daveirl wrote:

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Wonder what the Kiwis think of that now.

I reckon they still think you're half right. If they really thought D'Arcy was any good, they'd have crippled him early on too.

It's their style.

Jilm

Snickers Man wrote:

I reckon they still think you're half right. If they really thought D'Arcy was any good, they'd have crippled him early on too.

It's their style.

Dragging up a 6 month old thread just to push your anti-kiwi POV.

Nice one :rolleyes:

Snickers Man

Six months?

I can go back further than that.

What about what happened to Ken Catchpole in the 60s?

Or the Springboks Koch and Bekker in the 50s?

I'm not anti Kiwi per se. Just anti the sort of thuggery they feel entitled to dish out when they feel ever so slightly threatened on the rugby field.

Despite what some of the press are saying, it's got nothing to do with 'dissing' the haka. But wait till you see the sort of abuse that's going to get when NZ play here in November.

A lot of Irish people are going to let themselves down by abusing a Maori ritual that they will wrongly attribute to being the cause of Brian O'Driscoll's injury.

The real culprit is the 'win at all costs' attitude that NZ rugby is so proud of and which they rationalise away by saying that anyone who objects to it is a bad loser.

Have nothing to do with them, I say.

Boycott the bastards until they admit that Umaga and Meleamu are a pair of thugs and ban them.

Amz

Snickers Man, if you're going to drag up old posts please try and keep them on topic. You've been pushing an agenda here since you started posting on the rugby forum and your posts have been, for the most part, quite hostile and particularly biased against New Zealand rugby.

MG

uberwolf wrote:

But Leinsters forwards aren't that far behind Munsters.

Would that be last years Leinster pack or next years 'cos they ain't the same! Byrne, Cullen, Jennings, McCullen all gone.

Munster have made a botch of the backs in the last few years giving contracts to Storey, Jones Hughes etc. I think they are trying to rectify this a bit by giving development contracts to Touhy, Matthews, Murphy, Dowling etc (but strangely not to Lane).

The 2006-7 season is probably the one for them to break through - Mullins will be retired (presumably!), Hendo & Payne a year older, Cullen out of contract (too expensive to renew surely?) and worries over Kellys long term fitness.

A lot will depend on Kidneys attitude to the younger players. I know Gaffney largely ignored them, which isn't always remembered.

RuggieBear

MG wrote:

(but strangely not to Lane).

Is that richard lane? ISn't he a really good wing who can also kick or am i mixing him ip with someone else?

MG

RuggieBear wrote:

Is that richard lane? ISn't he a really good wing who can also kick or am i mixing him ip with someone else?

That's him. Apparantly second fastest in the Munster set up. Sent to NZ for the summer for experience but didn't get a development contract.

RuggieBear

MG wrote:

That's him. Apparantly second fastest in the Munster set up. Sent to NZ for the summer for experience but didn't get a development contract.

sums up ireland tbh.....look at how many of the nz and austrlian u/21 players have got super 12 contracts and/or proper representative rugby compared to practically none from the irish set up... :rolleyes:


Not sure if i posted it but i have an article somewhere which high lights these issue. I'll run off and try and find it

MG

RuggieBear wrote:

sums up ireland tbh.....look at how many of the nz and austrlian u/21 players have got super 12 contracts and/or proper representative rugby compared to practically none from the irish set up... :rolleyes:

Yeah we definitely need a more fluid set up where these guys get a chance to show what they can do. The provinces are to a large extent a closed shop, hence the likes of Lane not developing, Jennings off to England etc etc

I've said it before, I'll say it again - we need a Super 10/12 AIL.

RuggieBear

MG wrote:

Yeah we definitely need a more fluid set up where these guys get a chance to show what they can do.

i've posted that article as a new thread.

BogOak

just to be totally on-topic briefly (and i know this thread is ancient):

if we (munster) had o'driscoll over the past few seasons, we'd be triple heino champs no hassle.