Shaman

keu

thought I would bring this topic up for discussion as it was mentioned earlier.

"while ritual, magicko-spiritual power and interdimensional journeying are obvious and very significant elements of the shamanic path, woundedness is one of its most vital and least recognised aspects. The shamanic path is one of brutal self honesty, intense personal healing and deep self knowledge. It also indicates a responsibility to be of service to ones self and the community.

The shaman passes through personal wounds, usually beginning with the shamanic initiation and emerges as a fully transformed being. The new shaman is thereby capable of handling the dangers and responsibilites inherent in shamanic vocation. Through this healing process, the shaman becomes the wounded healer."~Kristin Madden

discuss?

stevenmu

A lot of shamanic rituals seem to involve the use of hallucinogens such as Salvia Divonorum. I wonder how much of the healing process is a genuine mystical event and how much is just a hallucination combined with the placebo effect. Altough the placebo effect is pretty mystical in it's own right and if a shamanic ritual can trigger it then that makes the whole process more or less genuine doesn't it ?

Oryx

I know nothing about shamanism, so its hard to comment, but I have been told that it is becoming 'fashionable' by a psychic healer. All paths that lead to spiritual development are a good thing, and your quote seems to be saying, heal yourself before you can be qualified to heal anyone else, which is good advice. Or maybe Im missing it?

keu

I don't know much about salvia, but I do know that shamanic traditions are the basis of all modern spirituality and religion and have their roots in anceint cultures where herbs or other substances were used to bring about hallucinations (spirit quests) mainly for induction purposes.
In Irish/celtic traditional shamans are often referred to as druids and had a specific role within society. (thinking mushrooms)

Initiation procedures often include the wounding and healing of the shaman, among traditional shamans the experience of dismemberment or decapitation is common, the process strips away the original identity of the shaman removing any association with the body and current personality (can see how drugs were used in this process)
In facing the spirits of disease the shaman gains new knowledge of them and often during these journeys the shaman walks through a process of reintegration providing a knowledge of both wounding and healing, in passing through this test the wounded becomes the healer.

Most indigenious cultures recreate this aspect of the shaman through their initiation ceremonies, during which the neophyte shaman is ritually killed or wounded, this serves to ground otherworldly and profound psychological experience into physical reality.
The shamanic inititation into otherworlds is frequently a psycho-spiritual crisis that manifests itself as death birth scenario, this voilent and frightening type of initiation is fairly common among traditionals.
After initiation the shamans remain continually open to spirit guidance and work to clear personal issues that may interfere with their work, performing daily rituals, smudging, breathwork, sweat lodges (teach an alais) trance work and using drums to induce hypnotic states.

During their time shamans have been called to serve their communities as healers oracles, counselors, guides and deathwalkers, I think from here you can see where all modern day metaphysical approaches have originated.

I agree that it is becomming "fashionable", maybe thats because the human race is desperately wounded and people are beginning to walk that neccessary path in order to heal.
Coincidently in 1977 a new planetoid was discovered which goes by the name of chiron, also referred to as the wounded healer and to atrologers is significant in designating this period as one of self healing.

will discuss more later (shape shifters and what nots)

solas

would explain why this generation is so fascinated with self destruction.

stevenmu

Interesting, I'd actually been wondering recently if the various types of spiritual healing (shamanism,reiki,placebo,acupuncture etc) were all different forms of the same thing, or at least different pieces of the same puzzle. That seems to be what you're getting at here

solas wrote:

would explain why this generation is so fascinated with self destruction.

I'm not too sure what you mean by this Solas, are you saying that in order to heal society we need to destroy ourselves first ?

stevenmu

Salvia ia a herb originally used for healing by the Matak(sp?) indians. Basically the shaman (or witch doctor, can't remember which term applied). Would perform a ritual and roll the leaves into a cigar shape. This would then be ingested by either the shaman, the patient or both. It would send him/her/then into a trance where they could examine the spirit of the patient and see what the problem is. Many people also worship Salvia as a female godess of healing and insight. They say a prayer to Salvia asking for help with something or other and take Salvia in the hope that she will visit and help them.

(and of course there's the try anything for a buzz crowd who hear what a powerfull hallucinogen it is and often as not come away a bit confused by it all)

Evil Phil

I've read some Terrence McKenna, not as much as I'd like I suppose, but he puts forward the idea that powerful hallucinogens like the ones being discussed here should only be used by those initiated in their use - i.e. Shamans, and should be kept well away from the buzz crowd.

He also suggests that in the modern world the shamans' role is replaced by psychotherapy/psychoanalysis. This is an interesting observation as psychotherapists go through the therapy cycle (for want of a better phrase) themselves as part of their education. A process of which requires self honesty and intense personal healing and can be paralleled to the shaman apprenticeship.

Oryx

stevenmu wrote:

Interesting, I'd actually been wondering recently if the various types of spiritual healing (shamanism,reiki,placebo,acupuncture etc) were all different forms of the same thing, or at least different pieces of the same puzzle. That seems to be what you're getting at here

My thoughts exactly, is the whole spiritual sphere such a huge concept beyond our understanding that we put our own names on it (shamanism mediumship, angels, religious doctrine etc) in an effort to understand?

stevenmu

Exactly, I've been thinking the same thing for a while, just couldn't manage to phrase it so well. It's like there's one big spiritual puzzle, and all the different aspects of spirituality contain clues towards it. The problem is the important aspects often get lost or obfuscated through dogma and people twisting meanings to their own ends.

Evil Phil wrote:

I've read some Terrence McKenna, not as much as I'd like I suppose, but he puts forward the idea that powerful hallucinogens like the ones being discussed here should only be used by those initiated in their use - i.e. Shamans, and should be kept well away from the buzz crowd.[

Having tried it, I completly agree with him. I'd read up on it a good bit before hand, so I knew what to expect and wasn't just in it for the buzz. Even so I was pretty overwhelmed by the whole experience. I learned some important stuff about myself and it was overall a good experience but very, very intense. Then stupidly I tried it again after a few beers and was really shaken up by it. I don't really remember much, or know how to describe what it was like (if anyone has read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy books and remembers the machine that showed you how insignifigant you are compared to all of existence it was like that, except it also showed how insignifigant existence/reality is too), but I was really shaken up by it.

solas

I'm not too sure what you mean by this Solas, are you saying that in order to heal society we need to destroy ourselves first ?

It's how it seems to me, akin to the process of the mythological phoenix.
It has made me think though, it reminds me of a poem I wrote years ago when I was interested in such things.
[snip]
"Does war make it easier to accept what's not right
or can we find peace in some second sight."

I think when I wrote it I was very idealistic and considered peace (or in this case well being) something that could be attained without having to know hatred or dis-ease (destruction) first, I think differently now.

just my opinion though.

Evil Phil

I think in terms of the shaman the destruction is actually more of a deconstruction down to the base elements that are then reconstructed in a new person (death and rebirth). This is also true of psychotherapy. I can see this healing society but only if people do this as individuals - a utopian ideal thats not very realistic. If society were inclined to follow this path it would have done so already and there wouldn't have been the need for spiritual guidence from the shaman. People would have guided themselves.

This is why people have always had guiders be it a shaman, druid, priest or therapist. I don't know if society will ever heal itself, we are responsible for ourselves alone and nobody else but if everybody took responsiblity for themselves we'd be a lot closer to a utopia.

solas

I do agree ..to an extent. There's that old catchphrase "peace begins with me" and it would be nice if people did take more responsibility for themselves but in the case of shamnic traditions/tribal culture, people were responsible for the community.
The elders had particular responsibilities to care for their own tribe as with shamans and so on, everyone had a place within society and so their responsibilities were not only to themselves but to each other. It is something which is lacking in today's societies, we say things like "oh, thats/they're not my responsibility", I question this attitude.
As some holy chap said once.."am I not my brothers keeper?"

it's all very questionable.

keu

He also suggests that in the modern world the shamans' role is replaced by psychotherapy/psychoanalysis. This is an interesting observation as psychotherapists go through the therapy cycle (for want of a better phrase) themselves as part of their education. A process of which requires self honesty and intense personal healing and can be paralleled to the shaman apprenticeship.

in shamanic terms this is known as retrieval and extraction.

"soul retrieval is a term that is commonly used to denote the return of lost fragments of the spirit, The shamanic perception of this is that the soul can shatter or parts can splinter off due to some sort of trauma. This trauma need not be something as intense as physical abuse or a life threatening injury. Fragmentation can occur through the loss of a relationship or a departed loved one. It can happen as a result of a perceived failure, an embarresment or a frightening situation."

basically from what I can gather, the shaman works to retreive these fragments and return them to concious awareness, much the same way psychologists would locate repressed feelings or situations.

keu

and extraction...

"is based on the belief that a foreign body has become embedded in an individuals energy field and is causibng illness or other problems. This is not something neccessarily bad although it may be. It is simply something that is not a normal part of the individuals energy field and does not belong there"
I wonder how a psychologist would percieve that idea?

"most healers will percieve these foreign objects-often called intrusions- as something personally repulsive. Traditional images include insects, scorpions and other arachnids, snakes and worms, fanged animals or dull and dark masses. This symbolism frequently reflects the fact that the intrusion is causing damage and can indicate the source of the intrusion.
There are healers who will use a consecrated mirror to see the intrusion in the reflection, some use a pendulum or feeling the persons energy with their hands, most shamanic healers though use the journey for diagnosing instrusions or posessions."

Tiriel

this is a very interesting thread. I started reading "Shaman Healer Sage" by Alberto Villoldo recently and am only about half way through, so I'm not as yet in a position to comment.. but it is fascinating. Especially the concept of imprints in your energy field.. causing you to repeat life cycles with certain reoccurrances. What do you think of this.. and about the possibility of erasing these imprints and making a clean start?

keu

I had an oppertunity years ago do have the procedure done, but I kind of regret it now because its like getting a very very white shirt back from the cleaners only to watch it get all muckied up as soon as you put it back on, the only way for it to stay white is to continually clean and clear and I really couldn't be bothered doing all that work all the time. (meditation etc..) so I just stopped.

Tiriel

but did it have an effect on your overall personality? I mean if you have certain characteristics that you didn't like.. does cleaning your imprint erase things like that? by this I mean depression, etc.

keu

It's difficult to describe, I spose it's like being taken into a dungeon, being locked away for three days in the darkness (before it I wasn't particularly in the dark or depressed or anything, wasn't looking for something better if y'know what I mean), a lot of pain manifests, terrible emotional pain that you didnt know you had and then suddenly after three days someone opens the door and lets you out and your just very grateful to be alive after it, so much so that you appreciate every breath of air you breathe and you become much more aware of everything, from colours to feelings and sensations but in my opinion it was too sensative and after a while I longed to not be so sensative to it all, desperately wanted to just go back to who I was and regretted ever knowing the difference.

I don't know if that makes sense.

Tiriel

actually I think it does. would you go through the process again? It seems to me that it has a huge effect on your physical body.. I mean it can completely drain you and make you deal with things that you would rather ignore. The feelings associated with this are not positive.. so it the overall effect of the process any different? I know it must be different for different people.. I'm just trying to get my head around it all.
The feeling you had along with the release after 3 days.. was this overshadowed by a kind of grief and pain/ general need to think a lot on your own..

keu

theres a catch that goes with shamanic solutions, especially soul retreival (shamanic death/initiation), the process itself is not a cure all, it does take you to a new start but the process can be so voilent that it in itself can cause defragmentation.
.. imagine after going through hell and comming out the other side all new and shiney and then realising you want to ki*ck the living sh*t out of the people who made you go through it. (it might have been different if an individual had asked or had been prepared for it, this was not the case)
Or, realising that there are some new aspects of yourself that you are not ready or able to deal with.
It's very difficult trying to live in a world where you see things so extremely differently from everybody else, thats a killer too.
so for all the good things there were as many bad things, some people feel it's worth the price.
It was positive in some ways (had some wonderful experiences) but it is heavy stuff and not a weekend thing, it's a lifetime thing that you have to be dedicated to and prepared for, I don't reccommend it tbh.

(physically lost about two stone)

keu

and the karma thing....
bono summed it up well..
"to touch is to heal
to hurt is to steal"
You do get to clear all that karma, albeit in one go, a bit like lying on your deathbed and being faced with every word you ever said or hurt you ever caused, it's very hellish. (three days of it) and the subsequent follow up. (past life experiences)
If you think that everytime you hurt someone (as a conscious act) you actually steal a piece of them/their energy (fragmentation) and in exchange replace that with some of your energy (intrusions), in shamanic terms is known as the web of life. (cause and effect)
After going through the procedure and clearing the past (made whole*) you get to see how it works firsthand and this new awareness is supposed to help/guide you in future decision making. In many cases it does and for many leads to "instant karma" effect, if they break the rules they pay for it instantly.

I've seen people on their deathbeds go through the same thing, when their energy begins to dissipate from the body all energy that ever left them or was taken starts repooling itself and reintegrating and they come face to face with it.
Is probably where the idea of hell came from.
I've also seen others who have already come to terms and the energy just eases away, with no pain but a great sense of completion and fulfillment and peace. (heaven)



*religious connotations of wholeness=holiness.
symbolically holy people are denoted by their halo's, mystically this is the aura, when made whole is designated by its colour, representing it's purity/cleanliness, most often it is golden.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

I think when I wrote it I was very idealistic and considered peace (or in this case well being) something that could be attained without having to know hatred or dis-ease (destruction) first, I think differently now.

Maybe I'm just being naive but that's pretty much the way I see things now. I think the biggest obstacle to any dramatic change is a kind of institutional momentum. People are too busy trying to survive within the system to try to change it, or even realise that they can. It usually takes a dramatic event, such as a war or famine or something, to make people see they need to change the system but, as recent events in the Ukraine show it doesn't always need to be that bad.

stevenmu

Keu, sound like a pretty traumatic experience, is that something you knowingly volunteered for ?

There seems to be this general feeling that we must suffer to make up for the wrong doings we've done. I can't help but wonder if this is a hang-over from peoples catholic (or other) upbringings, repent your sins anyone ? Maybe a quick trip to purgatory ? I suppose in this many religions and spirituality thingies (don't know an appropriate word) like Karma are very similar, but to me it doesn't make sense. Making somebody suffer obviously creates negative energies, fair enough, but is suffering yourself then not adding to the negativity.

To me it's pretty black and white, suffering creates negative energy, happyness/well being creates positive energy so I try to be happy and make others happy as much as possible. I have done things in the past that I'm not proud of, but I've always tried to make amends by making the other person feel better without any undue suffering on my part. Back on the overall topic, I've always been to heal myself very quickly, and I've found that the better I feel in general the better I can heal myself, but I've never found any previous suffering to be part of the deal. If the better I feel, the better I can heal, and being good in general makes me feel better than suffering would, then isn't that the way to go ?

From the description you give of your ordeal, Keu, it sounds like (and I could be misreading here) any feel good factor you got from it was that it was over ?

keu

noo, I didn't volunteer for it, it just kind of happened, I agree with everything you've said, they were all my principles before that incident.

but is suffering yourself then not adding to the negativity.

yes, but like you've stated you've recognised things your not proud of and you make amends, just aknowledging is forgiveness in itself.
and while it all does sound very religiously catholic upbringing type experience, it is based on a shamanic experience (death and birth), which is probably where most religions get those connotations from.

yea, feel good went out the window. It was fine for the first year after it, but then you have to go back to living in the real world..so to speak.

this is a bit off topic, but I thought I would throw it in just so you can understand my perspective. When my father died, his release was very welcome, it was great being at his bedside, it was a healing and enlightening experience. Religious beliefs didn't come into it then, in fact at that time I was very anti-religion. I gained a lovely sense of peace from the experience so I understand your points of view, they were very much similar to the ones I held for some time. simplicity.
After he died I went off soul searching, did healing, studied stuff and after three years of self discovery, I ended up in the shamanic situation. It was an eye opener. I was quite content with the world before hand, as far as I was concerned I felt like I knew all I needed to know so I'm not quite sure why it was so neccessary, but I did learn a lot.

keu

or look at it this way, its easier to have compassion for those who are in the dark and your not afraid to jump in there yourself because at least you know the way back.
its the shamanic psychological process of spirit journeying.
(but I feel like I jumped in with someone ages ago and never came back out)

[edit] and the whole repentance sin thing, its not really a case of hellfire and whatnot, mostly when people dont feel so happy about stuff there is an underlying factor, they've been upset at sometime or another or have regrets about things, to rid yourself of any of these issues is to simply recognise them, as any good psychologist will tell you, that way they can be released.

stevenmu

Not having experienced what you have I can't really judge fairly how effective it is/isn't. Perhaps though it's a case of different things suiting different people better according to the life experiences they've had. Personally I've been very lucky and not had very many really bad things happen to me. I think you kind of have the view of starting at the bottom to work your way up, whereas I just keep trying on trying to climb, your way you come back up quicker but I have less distance to travel so in the end we both end up the same ?

Would it be appropriate then instead of wishing you a happy christmas, to wish you a painful, miserable christmas eve with lots of good suffering


<edit> Ah, just saw your edit and I think I understand now, it's about self discovery and recognition which may not be pleasant as opposed to the unpleasantness itself ?

Happy Christmas so
</edit>

keu

well..I did say it was deep and intense and not for the weak of mind.
discernement is a good thing though and while most of us don't really need to deal with such intense issues, there are times when people need guidance to help find that peace and forgivness inside.

Wishing you and yours (and all here) peace and joy this Christmas and throughout the new year.

andrielle

hey guys, check out this site I just found: www.salviasociety.org I heard about it on Fox News last night. The guy who owns it was talking how he's trying to stop legislation in different states from banning the herb. I hope he succeeds, meanwhile they just banned it in my State (Minnesota) :mad:

WillieMason

interesting stuff

maccored

Irish shamen meditate rather than use drugs. I met one in roscommon a few years ago - quite interesting