Phone locations for sale - RTE Prime Time

10-10-20

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2025/0918/1534034-data-for-sale/

Data showing the specific movement of tens of thousands of smartphones in Ireland is available to purchase from companies working in the digital marketing and advertising industries, an undercover Prime Time investigation has found.

The availability of the data from brokers has raised major worries about personal privacy, but also national and domestic security, including at the highest levels of the Department of Justice.

A concerning report on our privacy, vis-a-vis apps which ask for location permissions.

I'm very interested in knowing if anybody has insights into which app(s) are selling this data, but it's unsurprising to see this development seeing how many apps request to collect this type of data.

plodder

I use a sports tracking app that is constantly asking to put location data on permanently as opposed to just when the app is running in the foreground. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of them. It's probably that kind of app doing this generally. Quite sinister.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829492#Comment_123829492

Such as Strava? If it's for recording personal exercise then it needs access to location data when the phone is in your pocket, so that's probably an expected and acceptable use. An example of unexpected use would be where a kids colouring app is asking for location data - that's a good indication that there's more than meets the eye going on.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829576#Comment_123829576

I'd be surprised if Strava was doing that, but I only use Strava for uploading activities. There is another app called "Sports Tracker" that I have which keeps asking for permission to record in the background. On the face of it it looks legitimate, but I'm wondering now …

MrMusician18

Surely the apps doing this was the key piece of information that the investigation needed to find out and release?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829590#Comment_123829590

Looking at the reviews, its a bit sus especially if its asking for location data when you aren't performing an activity!

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829592#Comment_123829592

and therein lies the crux as the data source won't be readily made public by the broker as its obviously black/grey market.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829603#Comment_123829603

Well, the way it presents it, is that you would be performing an activity, but the screen is switched off, so the app is considered to be in the background and needs extra permissions to keep recording, but what happens then when you stop the activity? Does it keep recording? That would be extremely sneaky if so ….

kippy

I haven't watched the show as of yet, however does it say exactly WHAT data is for sale.
Location data by itself probably isn't as bad as location data, with user account name, google account name, phone number/email address etc of account holder.

It's "difficult" (non tech and even some tech users) to switch off location services these days - google/apple/meta etc uses this data right across the board for various "offerings" but I suppose once you are aware of this there's no issue.

10-10-20

The paradox here are the wrist watches with unlimited access to health and location data, but with the difference being that they tend to be manufactured by more reputable companies.

In theory any trustworthy app could exist and have a huge install base one day, then be bought over by an unscrupulous operator the next. How is the trust maintained in that model?

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829639#Comment_123829639

The problem is that "location data" on its own without any additional identifiers is still very useful. A track that stops at a particular address at 8pm and starts again at 8am the next morning shows the phone owner at their home. Then you can use other information to find out who lives at the address.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829639#Comment_123829639

No, its horrendous actually. Take off your sensible hat and think outside the box.

Take a fascist government who want to identify and control media; who go to a broker under the premise of buying marketing data but instead use it to identify journalists using an office building and then track their route to their homes and social outlets. They can then identify their family, friends and supporters… and we're now describing Germany in the 30's.

jmcc

It is like people never heard of the Snowden revelations in 2013.

cj maxx

Ii use an app called incogni that contacts the data brokers and removes the. . I also never accept cookies if I can and still I have stuff on the Internet

bcklschaps

Watched the segment on Prime Time. It gave an overview of what type of things your data can be used for, and how these Adtech and data brokers skirt the data protection laws. (in summary you give them permission to use your location data)

It didn't go into what types of things you can do to protect yourself from location data harvesters?

I presume something as simple as you turn off location permissions for all Apps, can significantly help you. But a mobile phone location can still be found by use of triangulation from phone masts.

and of course if you turn off location data sharing, stuff like 'find my phone' won't work. Soo they are sneaky enough

Probably if you are going to be somewhere that you would like nobody to know about just don't bring your mobile phone with you 🕵️‍♂️

User567363

Is it okay not to give a danm

I have google maps, pokemongo, and tile set up to track my location always

Huge benifits to me

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829827#Comment_123829827

But a mobile phone location can still be found by use of triangulation from phone masts.

Only someone inside the mobile networks can do that, typically after being requested by the courts on behalf of law enforcement. I think the only thing people can do is limit location permission to apps to while you are using them. I wouldn't be worried about Google, but anyone else who is tracking all the time, I'd be suspicious of.

dball

Ive the new google pixel phone and any time i switch off location services - it warns me that ny "car crash detecton" service is disabled.
It appears on the screen in a fashion that its like something you should always keep on - and in fairness to it - it does make me turn it on. Fook gOOGLE

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123830294#Comment_123830294

That is a good example, there is no reason for such a service unless you are in fact in a car.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123830294#Comment_123830294

It would be an interesting followup project for a journalist to check with companies like Google and Apple that they don't sell this data. It would be a shame to lose capabilities like the one you mention, if there were in fact no risk to privacy arising from it.

TheValeyard

Wondering if this data could be used in criminal proceedings?

Let's say Person A is accused of murdering Person B. This company has the location of both Persons at the time of murder. Could it be used as evidence or is it gathered illegally?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831714#Comment_123831714

Probably not as the data won't have been obtained or stored in a manner compatible with the legal process, or might be proven to be unreliable if the app or its creators are found to be questionable/shady, or if they are outside of the jurisdiction. That's where phone mast triangulation comes into play as that data can be obtained through a warrant into a communications company's HQ.

Ten Pin

Govt aren't entirely angelic on this issue either, from Irish Times, 6 June 2023...

“As of Monday coming, the Minister for Justice is going to make an application in the High Court seeking an order under the Act which will require the retention of mobile phone data on everyone, you, me, the entire citizenry, for an extended period of time, including our whereabouts, who we called, texted and so on.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/06/23/mcentee-to-seek-private-hearing-of-court-application-under-law-dealing-with-dwyer-data-challenge-digital-rights-group-claims/

KaneToad

Prime Time did their best to sensationalise this. But all it is, is people freely granting apps access to their location data.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831890#Comment_123831890

Is it more about the absence of informed consent…ie. actually knowing and understanding the implications of granting consent? A lot of people just don't know the implications of granting consent to lots of cookies and what leaving location based tracking always on gives the app developer.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058425019/phone-locations-for-sale-rte-prime-time

Trying to watch the Primetime clip on that POS RTE "Player". So far, 4 mins in, it is all woo and scary stuff. The programme just freenzes and chugs.

This kind of data crunching and brokering has been going on for decades. To those in the business, it is nothing new. Might try watching it later today to see if RTE has fixed whatever error is preventing playback.

Some of the comments seem a bit naive. Then again, it is for a non-Tech audience.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831890#Comment_123831890

It is the old truism: if you are not paying then you are the product. People just have no idea that the Internet is one of the biggest surveillance systems ever designed. The problem on the legislative side is that it has people with a cutting edge 17th century understanding of the Internet trying to draft legislation for 21st century technology. Even the argument about the applicability of GDPR is problematic. A lot would depend on how anonymised the identifier data is and whether it can be reversed.

jmcc

Managed to watch the segment on Youtube. It was an extraordinarily good investigation by RTE. Johnny Ryan's comments on the DPC were correct. The problem is that people outside the Big Data business have absolutely no idea of what can be done with location data.

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123830587#Comment_123830587

It's a little more complicated, and easier for companies like Google to hide the truth…

I think in practice Google doesn't sell your data. They give it away for free to prospective advertisers, and sell space in your browser to the highest bidder, based on the data they've provided about you. All in milliseconds while you're browsing.

So when they say "We don't sell your data", they're telling the truth, but the truth is probably even worse than them selling your data.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123910644#Comment_123910644

I don't think that is true. The ads are delivered to your browser by google not by the advertiser. The advertiser doesn't get to see who the ads are delivered to, except to whatever extent you click on the ad, and then engage with the advertiser. If you don't click on the ads, then the advertiser knows nothing about you. All they know is that their ads are delivered to unknown individuals who searched for the keyword they are using.

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123910684#Comment_123910684

Yes, it's Google places the ad in your browser window. When space for an ad appears in your browser, Google sends your info to many prospective advertisers. These advertisers must reply to Google very quickly if they want to put their content into that space. One of those who responds is chosen by Google and then Google places the ad in your browser.