Air Corps / Force General Discussion - Aircraft, Manpower, Policy

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497863#Comment_123497863

The abject hostility to Retention issues whether in the DF or Gardai would be laughable if not so insanely self damaging.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497863#Comment_123497863

While it is passing the buck, it is actually an operational matter for the brass.

If its a case of fighting against the private sector, which it is, its up to the CoS to take that to the government and say, 'look, we've tried everything with the CPL campaign and entry rates and allowances and accommodation and what not, and we are now operationally compromised unless we can work out a solution.'

And I'll bet my bottom dollar that with the distraction of Clancy readying himself for Europe and every other damn thing, that a conversation like that simply hasnt been had.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498251#Comment_123498251

The feedback loop appears to be around 2.5 years though. Do they not have a copy of Microsoft Project 2005 with the KPI plug-in installed?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498251#Comment_123498251

The recommendations for retention were produced in 2021 reportedly, nor is this the first time that the AC has come to this issue, not too mention the example of the collapse in the operational rates of the NS once the specialist areas collapsed.

There really is no difference between the NS laying up hulls and the AC closing down to a 9-5 maybe 5 days a week service, and its at the feet of the ministers/departments who refuse to increase pay to match even other PS areas, let alone private sector, and then act shocked when the highly skilled and vital people go where the money is.

It's basically the same BS we got when the NS started "cutting its cloth", and years later nothing has improved there.

Negative_G

Fundamentally, the public don't care about defence. And the government know this. Its reflected in the abject response to any security related matters, the continued negative press surround culture and personnel shortages.

The DF has always "made do" with what theyve been given and been asked to do. Double/triple jobbing has been utilised by DF management to paper over the cracks and keep the show on the road.

The Government know that the most vocal on defence are the looney left and the continued lack of investment and progress keeps them at bay.

Its simple really, there's no public interest (broadly speaking) in Defence, therefore there's no big spend (in comparison to other budgets) so therefore it falls down the food chain.

Defence has been lumped in with Dept of Justice, Agriculture, Foreign Affairs, Taoiseach, Tanaiste etc over the last 10 years. The dynasty of Paul Kehoe lives on. "Pinch points" and "leadership challenges".

Officers who display a tendency to "rock the boat" or don't toe the party line don't make the rank of General Staff so anyone expecting any of the current or recent crop of GS to walk into the ministers office and slap down there Sam Browne will remain disappointed. Funnily enough, they all seem to find their voice when the pension and gratuity is secured.

The only pressure to invest in Defence is coming from Europe. And even at that, its been done at a snails pace and a whimper.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498558#Comment_123498558

There is no place for the Truth here.

I see yesterday a PC12 was over in Yeovil. Senior Staff Looking at future Helicopters? Asking if a few ATC operaters can be thrown in to the package!

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499073#Comment_123499073

It was a PC-9, in Yeovilton.

roadmaster

Everything is ok in the Air Corps according to Sgt Major Harris. They are just having a pinch point and Casement is not the only Airfield in Ireland so nothing will effect operations and also since there is no issues and no need to rush next week Harris will meet the new CoS to talk about the current issues so no problems.

Apart from that i understand Casement has already gone daylight hours as the ATCs that are going have gone.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499404#Comment_123499404

In fairness, is Casement really that busy that it can't operate as an untowered airfield at night?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501495#Comment_123501495

As a permanent policy position even with the supposed future growth of the AC? I say permanent based off the utter disinterest in trying to arrest the collapse of the NS.

I mean it may/will impact diplomatic capabilities (seem to remember May or one of the other Brexit PM's having to schedule their visit around reduced hours at Casement), to emergency responses (if the division of the ARW goes ahead surely the need for more 24/7 helicopter capacity will be needed?)

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501495#Comment_123501495

Just make it PCL (pilot controlled landing) and key the mic 5 times to light-up the runway, and be done with the tower altogether. Sure the tower is really only needed during Bray Airfest anyway.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501597#Comment_123501597

I mean, that's kindof the way I'm thinking. I used to fly out of Livermore, there were 40 aircraft in my club alone, let alone the swarms of bizjets and the like. 450 operations a day on two runways, the tower shuts down at 2100 and opens up at 0700. The entire Irish Air Corps is barely half that fleet size. Even the squadron of fighters yet to come isn't going to exactly swarm the airspace.

Just announce what you're doing on the common freq. Who's the night-flight ARW helicopter going to crash into that's not listening?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501645#Comment_123501645

It's just not a very convincing national security posture, but hey! 😁

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501495#Comment_123501495

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501597#Comment_123501597

Nothing has ever gone wrong in the past with the Air Corps because they didnt have Trained ATC staff on duty has it now?

Larbre34

Never happen.

There is far too much skittishness in official and political circles about the losses of Rescue 111 (AC Dauphin 246), PC-9 265, and ICG S-92 Rescue 116 to sanction the operation of Casement, after hours, with no ATC.

Its an absolute non-starter.

Negative_G

https://www.thejournal.ie/air-traffic-services-report-recommendations-no-implementation-dod-irish-air-corps-6719185-Jun2025/

If ever there was any more confirmation needed of who's in charge of defence related matters and policy, this is it. And its not those in Uniform.

Incredible to think DF personnel were only in recent months forced to participate in a "culture" survey to satisfy some nonsense aspects of the CoDF, while this issue has been burning since 2021 and before, and absolutely nothing done about it.

Again - anyone engaging about combat jets, I've got some magic beans to sell you.

Larbre34

Full blown scandal territory now.

I'd like to see Jacqui McCrum, Major General Adrian Ó'Murchú and Brigadier General Rory O'Connor sacked / retired off.

Negative_G

Major General O Murchu is retired a number of months now, since Jan/Feb this year. He hasn't been replaced.

I believe the rationale was to replace the CoS first which would then trigger a competition for Major General, and a new ACOS.

More of the same, senior officers and zero accountability.

The way things are being leaked now and the blame game, there will be some dirty tricks played by both sides. Expect more of it in the media in the coming weeks/months.

EchoIndia

"The way things are being leaked now and the blame game, there will be some dirty tricks played by both sides. Expect more of it in the media in the coming weeks/months."

Considering who the current Minister for Defence is, that's putting it mildly.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506082#Comment_123506082

Was the former CoS not to bring many of the current Senior Staff with him.

The Irish Times has another very similar Article today about the 2021 report.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506520#Comment_123506520

Not that senior.

He got an adjutant and a small personal staff of about 8, but the rest of the EUMC military staff are assigned previously from all members.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502197#Comment_123502197

None of those had a thing to do with whether or not one needs to have an ATC in the tower, let alone ATC in Casement. Barely the closest would have been 111 for the weather report, something untowered airports run automatically via ATIS anyway.

An untowered airport with the amount of movements Casement has is well within the abilities of a civilian solo pilot still in training for his pilot's license in the US. (I speak from personal experience). An unwillingness to consider it indicates either an utter lack of confidence in the capabilities of the pilots, which I doubt is the case, or an utter lack of the capabilities of the organisation, which requires the organisation having a bit of backbone.

Negative_G

With respect MM, the utilisation and frequency of use of uncontrolled airfield's in the US is in no way comparable to Civil aviation in Europe, never mind military aviation. The accident and incident rates in the US also compare quite significantly to the EU for this reason.

I feel both of your assertions are incorrect. The pressing issue here is risk, and getting someone to accept and put their name to that risk.

Everything is fine, until it isn't. And then the courts are involved.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123507614#Comment_123507614

They do in Ireland boss man. I can promise you that.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123508211#Comment_123508211

I don't accept that. I fully admit that the proportion of untowered airports in the US is far higher than that in Europe, and that -most- of them are podunk fields which would be unusually busy with four movements a day.

That says nothing about the capacity of untowered airports, though.

Again, picking only airports I have personal experience with.

LVK. Largest general aviation airport in San Francisco/ silicon valley (which has four Comercial airports and a slew of general in the vicinity). 450 movements a day average, tower shuts down at night.

CXP. Airport for the State Capitol of Nevada. 250 movements a day average. Precision approaches, a mountain range 10,000 feet higher than field elevation less than ten miles away. No tower at all.

EKX. E-Town, Kentucky. Where I learned to fly. Only an average of 45 movements a day, but a portion of them are miltary. If I'm rolling out behind an AH-64 at night (the rotor wash effect is interesting in a 172), the Army obviously has little issue with the concept.

RTS. Reno-Stead, where the Reno Air Races happen. Race week itself is towered, but everyone lands (or in my case departs) before it gets shut down for GA without a tower.

I would be extremely surprised if Casement activities are any more complicated than those. I would also be surprised if the activity in general is such that the idea of shutting down the tower at night is an issue.

I'm not advocating that Casement tower should be shut down completely. If nothing else, keep a core of ATC skills current, but I am observing that for the sake purely of operating the airfield, a tower is not necessary, and really not an issue at night.

I accept your comment about US accident rates being higher, but we also have a far larger number of recreational/low time pilots than the EU, and most of those accidents are not related to the tower prsence problem.

vswr

there was that one day where they had 2 PC9's in a touch and go pattern, and they had to get the Casa out, so they had to put the PC9's in a holding pattern 3 miles away, then the Garda helicopter needed to take off in the opposite direction of all of those…

scary stuff.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123509088#Comment_123509088

Are you still Angry from when they increased the price of the pint in the NCOs mess?

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123509177#Comment_123509177

never been (or is some joke going over my head here?)

anyway, from a less facetious point of view… Baldonnel is prime candidate for unmanned tower ops (although I think some EU regs may make it a too large for those type of ops, there'll definitely be some IAA stuff to get over, as I think there's some regs on being in the vicinity of population).

Dublin Tower/Approach do all the heavy lifting for 99% of mil traffic before they're handed over to Bal Tower.

Bal Radar is mostly used when the restricted area is in use (again, most traffic is detoured away from there by Civil ATC).

Negative_G

All reasonable points made.

Out of interest how many of those airports have IF movements in/out of uncontrolled airfields?

GA/Bizjet and Light aircraft traffic in the US is like the wild west in comparison to Europe. Some of it is great, some not so great and vice versa.

There Is no doubt that the volume of traffic at EIME is low but not convinced going uncontrolled is a viable option.

Again - who is going to accept the risk on that one, you can be sure the DoD won't and you can be doubly sure no AC Senior Officer is going to put their neck on the chopping board either.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123509484#Comment_123509484

I think we're guilty of run-away sarcastic thinking to a situation which we should never have found ourselves in. Given the situation, I think it's justified. It's beyond laughing-stock of Europe territory.