Principal Officer 2025

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123820236#Comment_123820236

I presume the pass rate would be between 1 in 2 and 1 in 3. The reality is that the main determinant driving whether or not someone gets an interview is those online tests which can throw up unsuitable candidates that only get found out at interview. Then there are those that underperform or are just unlucky on the day.

The selection process really needs to be improved and I know they are trying something new to address it but I don't think they will end up getting really good POs from it.

tea and coffee

Well given they shortlist the forms, you would hope that would show more in the way of having suitable candidates for interview unless we are all lying on our forms!

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123825482#Comment_123825482

I think you may have misunderstood my point. The first initial ranking is the most important since it determines whose applications get selected for detailed review. Given that you can write any old nonsense and if you've prepared well enough to do well in the tests, its likely that you'd submit a well polished application as well. My guess is that only a small percentage of high test scoring applicants lost out application review stage. Effectively, this means that PAS only have those ridiculous tests as a way of ranking candidates prior to interview. These are tests that expect idealized responses that do not actually reflect how things really operate in the CS. Sometimes you do need to delegate up, sometimes not every team members opinion is worth hearing.

After tests, the only other way of screening is interview. This is better than the above two methods , but with a €100k salary on the line, the vast majority of candidates will be professionally coached for interview. The interviewers themselves have to try to cut through that all the while we know that interviewing is not the day job - maybe they'll have done a one day onelearning course and are therefore considered expert in the process?. Ensuring consistency of assessment across panels is impossible. Interview scoring can consequently seem arbitrary and often overly harsh in some respects.

The net result of this is that you regularly see people who have gone through this rigorous recruitment process flounder when put in post. Given the challenging nature of the process though, you should be expecting a near universal success rate but this doesn't happen. The reason for this is that the selection process is fundamentally broken.

jc123456

Interview coaching and prep can only get you so far. At some point, you need tbe actual substance in your responses based on your experiences and skills. Either you have it or you dont. And it would be impossible for the aptitude test and pre-screening to have a nearly universal success rate in determining that substance. Hence, the interviews.

That's why they will probably have a second (and maybe more) batches.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123826872#Comment_123826872

"It would be impossible for the aptitude test and pre-screening to have a nearly successful rate in determining the substance". The problem is that the particularly the tests are completely useless at screening. The only function they seem to provide is a crude way to reduce thousands of candidates to two to three hundred by a means of an algorithm that can't be challenged on the grounds of fairness. Fundamentally though such tests are useless at finding good PO's, APs or anything else they use them for.

Would someone that gets 20 in the OoM from the tests be a better PO than someone that comes 500? Maybe, but also maybe not. Yet only one of those will have a chance at interview. That's the issue.

Quite frankly, after a basic intelligence assessment, drawing lots for application review is as fair as the aptitude and job simulation testing.

jc123456

While I agree that they're not perfect, you are dramtically exaggerating their downsides. The aptitude test, particularly the situational questions, are a good sign of whether people have the political acuity to perform as a PO. I know someone who has just been interviewed who literally has never worked in Ireland before (they were a senior civil servant in Canada). They were shortlisted for an interview because they're qualified for the role because they understand acutely the situational choices.

Again, they're definitely not perfect but not at all comparable to a blind draw.

Dutyful

Although aptitude tests aren’t perfect, they do give an insight into how well candidates can prepare and follow instructions when given clear criteria. Candidates who pass but rank lower in the order of merit may need to wait longer before being called for interview, which gives them extra time to gain experience and develop further in their current role and, paradoxically, this can actually be an advantage by the time they get to interview! So, while someone who ranks highly might not necessarily turn out to be a better Principal Officer than someone ranked 500 in the long run, it’s likely that they were more ready for the competition at that particular time

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829396#Comment_123829396

Perhaps, but at this level you should be sufficiently senior where an extra year isn't going to make a whole pile of difference. You might get an extra project or two under your belt. maybe. The problem I have with the tests in particular is that they are designed with one goal in mind: to make things easy for PAS. They are certainly not designed with the candidate in mind, and they do not identify candidates that are good fit for roles. Remember, the test is the primary selection mechanism as everything flows from your test result.

PAS though have form in this regard. There was absolutely no reason to have candidates complete the application form before they took the tests other than to create a barrier to entry. Additionally, most people have PAS profiles that are populated with information on previous qualifications, experience etc, yet candidates have to re-enter this for every application. More time wasted.

2218 candidates sat the tests, of which something like 1800 will never see their application forms read, at best. Thats easily over 1000 man days wasted by PAS, but candidates time is very cheap, so who cares I guess.

Dutyful

That’s a fair point, having to re-enter information for every application does feel inefficient, especially as most profiles already hold the same details. Still, I think filling in the application form up front can actually help focus for the tests, since it gets you thinking about your experience and how you match the criteria for the role. Streamlining the process so candidates could pre-populate their forms from their profile would make things a lot smoother for everyone, though!

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829556#Comment_123829556

I mean… if you searched through the boards.ie archives (assuming search still worked), you'd find this one change has been proposed several times already, going back years. It's hugely wasteful to have to cut and paste stuff from an old form into a new one. Again. And again. And again.

Nobody is doing that in their own leisure time, either.

But hey, PAS's CEO did announce just a few months ago that they'd revamped their whole website, it's got a new colour scheme now, and maybe… a new logo? Progress!

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123829520#Comment_123829520

While I absolutely take your point about the time-wasting - what's the solution? They can't interview 2218 applicants. They do have to get that number down, somehow. I found the online tests to be reasonable approximations of real world, senior-level decision-making, at least, whatever about the analysis test.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831182#Comment_123831182

The massive general entry competitions are the problem. Instead of screening with those tests they could instead split it up into say 8 competitions with a specific focus on department relevant skills. You apply to become procurement, HR, large team management, customer service PO etc. In other words you force candidates to select the post type that best suits their skills and you stream them from the start. You give people the application forms (specific to each stream) but importantly they do not have to submit it until after they have taken a basic competence test.

At this point, you then conduct a competence test and you set the pass/fail bar high enough so that you cut off applicants that are not going to be successful further on. You then invite these successful shortlisted applicants to submit their applications and all of these are reviewed and ranked. Interviews for each stream would then take place.

This approach would maximise the likelihood of a candidate being successful in a new job because they are actually applying for the job they will be doing. It minimises wasted time on behalf of candidates and above all it is fair. This would of course require PAS to make more effort with large volume recruitment but as we see from the way that they refuse to pre populate application forms with information they already have, we all know that they think of candidates and their time.

PhoenixParker

Everyone would just apply 8 times, or if not 8 then 3-4 and you've tripled your workload.

Dutyful

I think that open PO competitions are still valuable because they let people from diverse backgrounds compete, bringing fresh perspectives into senior roles. That said, specialist PO streams (like HR, ICT, and Comms) already exist, and expanding them alongside open competitions could help match the right people to the right role ensuring both breadth and depth of talent within the civil service.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831909#Comment_123831909

And? The work has to be done but the current situation sees PAS shift all that onto the candidates. If it was a risk, you could limit each candidate into selecting two streams.

Even if you didn't think streaming was a good idea and wanted to retain the tests as is, there was absolutely no reason for PAS to require that application forms be fully completed before sitting the tests. They could, just as easily provided the forms when the competition opened requested that forms be submitted two weeks after the test results came out. They could request that the top 150 submit then for example or indeed leave it up to the candidates themselves to choose whether they bother on foot of their results. It would likely result in better applications as well.

It would minimise all the wasted effort and show some consideration that the candidates time and work is actually valued.

San Frandisco

Is the PO salary worth it for the amount of stress and pressure? Arguably if someone was at PO level and in the private sector their salary would be significantly more. So would they be better off in the private sector?

Before anyone says pension is better - can we all just agree that is most definitely not. That is a myth. The only thing better about it is that it is a defined benefit. You still have to contribute circa 7 or 8%. In the private sector your employer will match that so you’re effectively getting double the pension.

jc123456

So what's the odds on a second batch this week? Keeping my faint hopes alive 😂

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123832247#Comment_123832247

And don't forget you get state pension on top in private sector!

Lately have been thinking AP is possibly the sweet spot in terms of comfortable salary and work-life balance but I am sure plenty are enjoying PO and above too. Horses for courses.

Jessibelle

I’d say there’s a chance of a second batch over the lifetime of the panel but I’d imagine that unless the process is radically different from previous competitions, it may not be called for interview for a while yet as the focus will move to placing those on the newly formed panel. With that said I’ve no idea what size the newest panel is nor the demand off the same so it might be quicker than expected.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123831244#Comment_123831244

Instead of screening with those tests they could instead split it up into say 8 competitions with a specific focus on department relevant skills. You apply to become procurement, HR, large team management, customer service PO etc. 

I work in IT. I've run multiple six-figure procurements, and managed large teams, and, er, yeah, some of my roles have absolutely been customer service. I'm grand doing one competition (and the occasional specific-role application) rather than four or more, thanks all the same.

Dutyful

If there's anyone here who was successful at interview who could share some insights that would be fantastic. Would love to hear about your experience and also, congratulations 🎉

POquery

Does anyone have any sense of the number of vacancies PAS will be trying to fill with this panel? Not having a numbered panel, and having no sense of the number/types of roles (and how the available roles would match your identified skills) mean that you have no idea at all if or when you might hear something is doing my head in! Previously at least you could check where they were on the list.

Jessibelle

oh that’s definitely different! Did they not even give you a sense of how many passed interviews?

Redhead58

24 through as far as I know. No indication yet of next steps. Nothing about the higher comp either. Is there any rumours about where the PO roles are likely to come up? Or when the higher comp might come out? Will that just be an application or will there be online tests again?

TaurenDruid

I see PAS are advertising for a new CEO - of PAS! Oh, I wish!

"Right, folks - from Monday:

1. You start work on a new website, that retains people's profiles, and automatically carries their job history and most recent competency answers into any new application.
   
2. All jobs get the salary scale posted along with the job, no exceptions.
   
3. The alerts system gets a total overhaul and becomes far more granular, so someone interested in 'management positions' doesn't get mailshots about being a school inspector, and people can say 'don't offer me any positions that pay less than X' so they don't get mails about jobs two grades below what they're on, and they can say 'permanent roles only', and 'only these counties'!

Now, Tuesday…"

mojoviii

Just to add my 2c, I have heard nothing yet about a batch 1.2 and I would have expected to be in it based on my OoM after shortlisting. I missed out on the 1.1 36 people but not by too much. I have a colleague who passed shortlisting and is just over 100 on the OoM so they definitely shortlisted over 100 in batch 1. The idea they shortlisted/screened 150ish feels right to me.

jc123456

Called PublicJobs and at least according to the call center person, they dont have any plans to have a second batch "right now". Unclear what that means.

I had heard that a PO higher competition was planned to recruit from the same panel but unclear.

Dutyful

Maybe once they have placed a few from batch 1.1 and they see how successful (or not) the pilot has been!

Fingers crossed for a batch 1.2 soon! 🙏

POquery

Has anyone heard of anybody being placed from the first panel yet? I imagine that they will want to be a fair way through the first panel (and know that it is working) before they call a second batch for interview.

tea and coffee

I was thinking about it this morning. Probably a good chunk placed quite soon and then a lull. If they do call a batch 2, I was thinking probably after Christmas