Irish Neutrality: A cowards comfort?

Repo101

Ireland’s stance on neutrality has long been a source of national pride, but in the face of Russia’s war against Ukraine, it has become an excuse for inaction. While few would argue that Ireland should send troops, the idea that we must remain passive in the face of aggression is both morally and strategically short-sighted.

For a nation that has suffered under colonial rule, watching Ukrainians fight for their sovereignty should hit home. Yet, too many Irish people cling to the illusion that neutrality is a virtue in all circumstances. Did we want other nations to "stay out of it" when Britain crushed Irish uprisings, imposed famines, and committed atrocities? If we expect the world to remember our suffering, why do we refuse to act when others endure the same?

Sanctions, military aid, and diplomatic pressure are the least we can support. True neutrality does not mean standing by while a tyrant wages war. If we believe in justice, we must ensure that aggressors face consequences—not hide behind outdated pacifism while others pay the price.

Why are Irish people/voters on both the left, center and right so weak when it comes to neutrality?

I'm not pretending that we can make a tangible difference but why should we pretend that neutrality absolves us from justice and what is right? How did we end up with such a cowardly nation who believes in the status quo for infinity?

Also, for the tweakers, I'm not suggesting intervention but preparing ourselves for an unstable world. It's starting to become clear why the British ruled us with ease for centuries.

Kermit.de.frog

The thing is Ireland's "neutrality" which began with WW2 was not for moralising reasons - It was intended as a practical expression in that war to demonstrate independence from Britain. Since it's warped in to two things - one is save money, two is some sort of ideological shield for the nuttier elements on the left who seem to think we are all virtuous and moral or something and can sh!t talk to serious countries who actually have responsibilities in the world.

It's cowardly and cheap. It's also irresponsible. We are left practically defenceless and worse, we leave a gaping hole in the north Atlantic for Europe.

It's not a good look especially with contemporary realities closing in.

highpitcheric

Remain passive?

Theres 100k Ukrainians refugees in the fcking country.

We've sent 200m of non-lethal military aid.

Wolf359f

We certainly need a discussion around it. Both sides need to be heard and informed of the potential downsides. it's very easy for some to say the money would be better spent on housing etc… while the other side would rather invest in some defense, just in case. Both sides have valid arguments.

There's middle ground. We're an island, we should have a suitable navy to patrol and prevent smugglers but also just to aid fishermen etc…

I also like the idea of having a reserve force, young recruits maybe out of secondary school, a few years training where they get a decent pay (help save for college or a house) teach them respect and discipline etc… But can be called up if ever needed.

Kermit.de.frog

I don't think Europe has an issue with neutrality. I don't think neutrality is the actual problem.

What Europe undoubtedly does have an issue with is to paraphrase "at least provide protection for yourselves and by proxy us on our western flank - at least do the basics" and they'd be 100% right in that.

REDBULL68

In ww2 in England they had the home guard (dad's army ) as all men and women of age were off fighting or involved, the mathematical crew at the time said if Germany invaded they would last 5 days at most as they had no fighting army at home,so how well do you think we'll do if we train up a small army and send them off to God knows where to get massacred .

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058396671/irish-neutrality-a-cowards-comfort

Why would Ireland get in a wars over ukraine/russsia borders when our own border is contentious yet we dont fight over it? From being irish we know you can live in two jurisdictions if their is equality and you dont need to war over an arbitrary boundary line.

The war in ukraine /russia is a disgrace on human life. Do i want Ireland to part take in that shite? Absolutely not. We are right about being neutral. Just too many west brits and right wing Americans dont like this as it is their national identity to het into wars and wants Ireland to be alittle Britain that gets in wars too. No thanks.

PixelCrafter

The right wing Americans have largely decided (for various reasons) that they aren’t getting involved and have upended NATO and are very much now inward looking. Some of that is for “not our problem” reasons, some of it’s about driving ideological, trade and power wielding agendas, but the net result is NATO is very wobbly. European solidarity is there, but it has tended to wax and wane —most countries had been operating under the assumption of a NATO umbrella, which isn’t looking as reliable as it was.

Ukraine was given extensive security assurances by both Russia and the U.S.A. when it handed nuclear weapons over to Russia. The Russians have invaded them and the U.S. has now turned its back and walked away. They’ve been very blatantly lied to by Russia —their word was meaningless, and now they get told to get stuffed by the US.

Ireland is strengthening its defences — fairly significant investment is now going into the three branches of the defence forces and were getting the advanced radar, better aircraft, better vehicles etc etc.

I don’t really see why Ireland couldn’t participate in purely defensive aspects of a system though. We should be part of the EU anti missile shield system and help track and defend airspace by deploying purely defensive technology in collaboration with the rest - that’s in all of our mutual interests. It should be made very difficult to lob any missiles at Europe, but I would draw the line at being involved in EU offensive action.

A lot of countries in the east also have rather hardcore ideologies on conscription and mass mobilisation etc and in ways that would just be totally contrary to the whole philosophy on freedoms here at a very fundamental level. In an EU military context that kind of policy absolutely shouldn’t ever apply here. It didn’t even apply when we were still rolled into the UK and the British Empire, and I can’t see it ever being acceptable. We don’t come from a militaristic history and there are certain things we need to be able to draw a line at.

I’m in favour of deeper cooperation with the rest of the EU, but I’m not at all keen on these knee jerk calls to EU to create an EU army. We don’t have the structures or the democratic legitimacy at EU level to command one. It’s not a federal state.

bassy

Send the lads from the curragh Athlone cork kilkenny SNEER DA SNEER

Hamsterchops

I think Ireland can remain neutral whilst showing a little bit of muscle, so that it's not taken that Ireland is Europe's undefended and open backdoor.

Wanderer78

is the op prepared for a significant rise in taxes, in order to pay for a beefed up defense budget?

Montage of Feck

Its easy to be neutral when you've got the RAF and Royal Navy protecting your borders. But the once great RN now has more admirals than actual fighting ships so this cannot continue for much longer.

Vorsprung

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176015#Comment_123176015

Our 2025 spend is €120 billion, €1.35 billion goes on defence. If we go to €1.8 billion, an extra €450 million annually (bringing us upto 1.5% of annual spend), we're not facing a significant increase in taxes.

Flinty997

Ireland spent a 100yrs turning it's back on militarism it's become part of the national identity. There is simply is no interest. No interest means no political will.

Call people names is a childish mentality to the issue. People will write off that kinda opinion as infantile.

The reality is nothing short of a crisis will ignite any interest or meaningful action.

Thelonious Monk

always wondered why the country doesn't want some kind of defense force that could fend off some kind of invaders at least for a while. we currently have basically nothing. i think that down the line, europe will fragment, resources will dwindle over time, climate change will cause all kinds of issues and there very well may be serious threats to ireland in the coming decades.

Mannesmann

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176011#Comment_123176011

I take it as the right option. We need to defend our neutrality properly and that means a proper defense force. I mean we have ships without crews and inadequate modern weapons, no defense radar systems, no interceptor jets and a very small frontline capable army without drones and armour. A few hundred commandos with air support and modern equipment could take over in a few days.

SuperBowserWorld

So, does everyone's kids go to war or just disadvantaged people's kids in this great Irish adventure ?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176194#Comment_123176194

Well it's not nothing...

But realistically any military force able to get here in enough strength to invade is likely to be far stronger than we can defend against.

But we should be able to police our borders and internal security.

All of Europe is struggling with the cost of militaries and the getting enough manpower to run it.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41454847.html

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176213#Comment_123176213

lots of kids willingly join well functioning armies, good place to learn trades and skills

Taxburden carrier

Can’t see our current crop enlisting.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176213#Comment_123176213

There are lots of very valid reasons to join the military.

Not everyone wants a life of 9-5 behind a desk either.

But you illustrated very well the scathing attitude in Ireland to anything military. Which is ironic considering our cultural past from ancient times to now.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176213#Comment_123176213

Well the current situation is another country's kids.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176471#Comment_123176471

I think he's referring to the great Irish adventure of having Irish Navy ships protecting our coast, fishing, telecommunications cables and drugs without working guns of any kind.

Because they don't have enough crew. Because people make it out to be a bad career, and thus we don't fund it properly.

PixelCrafter

Unfortunately it is a bad career as we neither pay it properly in relation to the economic realities nor do we seem to treat people very well in the defence forces — it’s been rife with serious bullying scandals etc.

If we were serious about making it an attractive career we’d make a lot of changes, but we’re haven’t been until very recently been taking it very seriously at all.

cml387

Ireland's defence stance (recently articulated by the President and I may be paraphrasing a bit here):

"Everybody should just love everybody else and then there's be no wars or anything"

Flex

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176160#Comment_123176160

Most measurements discussed in media of % are against GDP, not total government spending

Our Defence spending is 0.2% of GDP, when compared to GNI it’s maybe 0.35%… I agree we need to start spending more on our defence forces, even starting now to get to a modest or reasonable ~1% of GDP would need us to quadruple the spending from €1.5b to €6b a year, phased over a number of years, so we should start doing so

JJayoo

Tell Donald he can stick a base/radar station on Inishtrahull and then we will have some American muscle on the island.....tho he might decide to invade Donegal 🤔

tinytobe

I don't particularly like Irish neutrality. Neutrality is in gerneral often seen as an excuse not to invest in military at all. The only exception to this would be Switzerland.

The most immient problem for Ireland: Ireland would need a real airforce with fighter jets. However sadly also this requirement is often disputed within the Irish society, but all the odd ways. The most common excuse is still: "Who would attack Ireland". That thought and statement alone would be a an invitation by any hostile force.

In the end, regardless if neutrality or joining NATO, Ireland would simply have to do more.

ancapailldorcha

I am quite certain that the people belitting neutrality would be the ones to run first if Ireland were ever invaded. We adopted the policy for a very good reason and it should be maintained.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176791#Comment_123176791

Less chance of being invaded if you have a proper defence and contribute to something like NATO properly.

Fritzbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176791#Comment_123176791

I am quite certain that the people belitting neutrality would be the ones to run first if Ireland were ever invaded.

How the hell do you know this? I don't see how you can make the connection?