Do you believe that we in Ireland are now richer than those in the UK?

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971589#Comment_122971589

I'm just back from the UK twice in a month, you see serious high end cars there frequently... our middle class, would be deemed working class in the UK...

yagan

Depends on where you're standing. Not long after the Brexit vote I visited Oldham and Rochdale and thought if I lived here I probably would have voted for Brexit because it felt like nothing positive had happened there in decades.

The wealth gap between north and south England goes beyond any disparity I'm aware of on the whole Island of Ireland. And even in north England you'll get a huge disparity between places like Blackburn and Leeds who share an airport.

It really is a case of post industrial decline in the north and finance radiating out from London.

I past through areas in north England that reminded me of grim Ireland of the 1980s. Terrace after terrace of boarded up houses in many places.

I guess the indicator though is people movement. Aside from London and the university towns there isn't an Irish scene in England anymore in most of the old traditional haunts.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971562#Comment_122971562

FFG are hardly right leaning economically. They're more or less right in the middle of the road. Yes, we rely on MNCs and investment sectors quite heavily, but we don't have many options in that regard. Ireland is small economy off the North Western shore of Europe. And Ireland has next to zero valuable natural resources such as oil, coal, gas, steel, precious metals etc. that shore up the internal economy like in regions such as the Nordic countries. So we have to be attractive to inward investment. Otherwise we go back to subsistence farming. That's what the physical geography of our island is good for, farming and horticulture. And we've deforested most of the island to maximise our farming exports.

You're well off the mark labelling FFG as economically right. We have a very wide social welfare net, a progressive income tax system, inheritance taxes, property taxes, excise duties on fuel, carbon taxes etc. That balances with some of the more economically right policies in our country. Therefore, a middle of the road economic approach. One which the people voted for the continuation of in the most recent election.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971815#Comment_122971815

They're fairly fond of leasing and hire purchase in the UK. Just because a person drives a high end car doesn't imply that they're wealthy. Credit is easily accessed when it comes to cars and you know what's said about fools and their money......

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971314#Comment_122971314

That misses the point.

If a voter feels FFG are more likely to build 300k homes by 2030 vs SF, they will vote FFG, to try fix the housing crisis.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971361#Comment_122971361

Which party do you think would build more homes than FFG?

I do agree house prices are too high, but the way to fix that is to build more homes.

FFG are predicted to oversee new builds of about 34k this year and beat the 40k mark in 2025. That isnt ideal, but it isnt bad and it is progress.

Most importantly, it's the best output option we have.

The population of Ireland is doing anything but dropping.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971511#Comment_122971511

Plenty of FFG voters I know are more than happy for their house price to drop, if it means their kids can get on the housing ladder.

They decided that FFG will deliver more homes than SF, and so voted for FFG; to improve the housing situation.

Its pointless comparing FFG with a perfect housing output. In the real world, no govt is going to build 100k homes from 2025 onwards.

The relevant question is which of the 2 government choices will build the most homes, FFG or SF.

Given the improvement in housing output in recent years and the expected delivery of over 40k homes next year, the first time for decades, the safe money is on FFG.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971511#Comment_122971511

if you were a FFG voter, primarily home owners, why would you want to lower the value of your primary asset by seeing more homes built?

It would be fair to say alot of homeowners don't have any intentions or aspirations to move home. So I don't get the whole 'lower the value of your primary asset' mindset. Is it to go down the pub and boast that their humble abode is worth 'half a mill' on daft.ie?

banie01

I'd take a slightly different view on the "are we richer" question. I'd frame it as where would you rather be poor. In Britain? Or here? I know which my preference would be and it certainly wouldn't be Britain. Living standards & life expectancy on the slide and poverty, particularly childhood poverty on the rise.

The UK has serious issues around taxation, equity and equality to address. It has to do that in an economic morass entirely of its own making. Ireland has similar structural problems but is approaching them now with budget surpluses and a well performing economy. Housing is a prime example, the UK is in as bad a predicament as we are but is even more beholden to private equity to finance any interventions.

Standards in Education, health and public services such as foster care and social care are plummeting. They are yet to actually implement portions of the withdrawal agreement because inbound checks will cripple their supply chains.

If the UK were a lifeboat? It's one that is sinking, taking on water by the gallon yet being bailed out by a clown with an egg cup.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971045#Comment_122971045

Is it South Africa your in?

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122970994#Comment_122970994

I'm assuming with the cost of building a house you are living in a third world country?

jodaw

I am not. South Africa has a pretty complex immigration process, although the value for money in gated complexes around Joburg is truly amazing...

I did consider going to Steyn City where the private school is about 5K per year. Check out the school at Steyn City and Steyn City in general...

Amazing complex, I stayed for a week last year

jodaw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972047#Comment_122972047

Funny that. I am considering Ireland 3rd world upon living here for a while

Shopping malls leave Dundrum town center looking like a dump. Access to beaches and healthcare is amazing.

Internet perfect

Food prices very reasonable

Viscount Aggro

Most NI cars i see down here, either they are speeding, and/or they are premium range cars.

Thers a cohort up north who are feeling no pain.

Castle Archdale campsite this summer.. its wall to wall good cars, big caravans, motorhomes… nobody slumming it in tents.

No southerners were presnt.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972056#Comment_122972056

I know a good few South Africans who prefer Ireland for its safety. But hey, if you're insulated from that then it's not an issue for you.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972056#Comment_122972056

Black outs? you havent mention them

I have been to South Africa. Lovely for a short trip, would I live in it? no chance

The crime rates are incredible, most people have private security which is a group of guys walking around with as many guns as possible.

Large sections of cities not safe and not recommended to go near.

Joburg, we had an office in it and in the end people leaving the office had to get an armed escort home because at each set of traffic lights around the office they would get robbed at gun point for laptop etc in the car.

The rand is worthless outside of SA

Its a nice view you are trying to spin but their is a reason why the likes of the UK etc have a massive South African community build up with people leaving in their droves.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972056#Comment_122972056

And yet one of my neighbours has been granted asylum in the last year, guess where he and his young family are from? The shangri-la paradise of south Africa, ran out of the country due to gang related threats and the murder of 2 members of his close family. Just curious, how many Irish have the south African government granted asylum to in the past decade?

Just as an addendum the number of applicants from south Africa last year was 423, quite the utopia you're living in over there

Idbatterim

WWe Are a tax haven and funded by thwt and Higher income earners, being absolutely robbed, to pay for an obscene welfare state robbing the poor and particularly the "high" incomes earners, to fund the garbage system. But im delusional because after decades of wealth, expect Ireland to be a hell of a lot further than it is on infrastructure etc... I have to say, in a way, id agree with the increased tax from 140k plus , it would effect primarily massively overpaid and useless civil servants, politicians, state agencies and in the private sector, mostly earners working for companies, earning more money than god and not carrying their fair share to the economic potential as a whole...

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122969060#Comment_122969060

My guess is you have not lived elsewhere.

Health system is not too bad (try not to listen to those that moan about everything)

Our weather is quite pleasant - try living in 40+ degrees in summer in much of Europe.

Housing access is also good, but there are currently difficulties, however we don't use trailer parks like much of the UK or massive high rise social housing like many European countries that cause even more issues.

If you put aside the top 10% of earners and just compare the 90%, we'd be way way above the UK

Emblematic

These threads come up every so often. I think most people agree that GDP is not a great measure of the economic welfare of the people. There is another one called disposable household income per capita adjusted for purchasing power. This measures the amount of money people have after taxes are taken away and whatever government services are added back in. I posted a ranking of Ireland relative to other EU countries a while back. We are still behind countries like Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, Norway (I know not an EU country). We are ahead of Spain, Greece, Romania etc. and about on a par with some of the Baltic states and Czechia and a little ahead, but not much, of Poland. I will try to find the thread where I posted these figures.

Now a lot of people will say that, of course, some people not being able to afford stuff is a small price to pay for being one of the richest countries in the world, but I think these people need to reflect on what being rich is supposed to mean. It is supposed to mean that that things become more affordable, not less.

I think also, while we are about mid-level in EU terms, what this doesn't take into account is the extreme level of housing inequality we have here and the insecurity that large numbers of people have trying to stay housed. I think, overall, the country has not been managed well in this regard.

That said, we are well above world standards for most things. Even the worst EU countries are far above the typical world standard of living.

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122969754#Comment_122969754

None of those places are cheaper to live than in Ireland, certainly not the south west of England, groceries are no cheaper in the UK than here in general

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971815#Comment_122971815

One of the things I like about the UK is the nice cars you just don't see here.Thats more as a result of our crazy road tax system that a demonstration of their wealth.

homewardbound11

I don’t think we are comparably richer at all.
lived there and found lower salaries but much lower cost of living meant I was able to save a lot more there .
as for things like council tax. At least you get services for your contribution . GP visits , bin collections, . All adds up .

I often think it’s similar to people saying it’s cheaper to live in the country , do we not eat the same foods and use the same petrol and electricity . housing is cheaper but offset that against putting your 2 or 3 children through college in rented houses in Dublin . It soon erodes the housing differences . Many other items too that would bridge the 200 k difference between a house on the country V commuting distance in Dublin to the capital for work/ college .

Kermit.de.frog

...

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972695#Comment_122972695

How is cost of living cheaper in the UK

We visited north Wales for a week ( plus Cheshire and Shropshire) in 2022, we went to the supermarket several times and saw no cheaper groceries, petrol and diesel were dearer, public transport like trains far dearer,going to the doctor is free but that's it

yagan

On the shopping we were back and forth across the Irish sea for three years and shopped mostly in Aldi/Lidl and found the major difference being obviously booze is cheaper in the UK but things like smoked salmon was cheaper in the Irish stores, even though some of the Irish supply came from Scotland!

Otherwise while you NHS is free trying to get an appointment for a basic checkup was taking months, so on a trip back to Ireland I rang my old GP practice, got a next day appointment, paid my €50 and had results back in a few days.

The reality is Britain has a much older demographic than here, but we're starting to feel the pressure of an aging society needing more health access, so there's lessons to be learned from across the water. Another myth about the NHS is that not all NHS Trusts are funded the same, you actually get families moving house just to be in a better funded Trust area, which in turn means a kind of hollowing out in some areas which care is needed the most.

boardsdotie44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122969060#Comment_122969060

Now their is pessimism:

Our weather is terrible - we dont suffer extremes like alot of other parts of the world, rarely get 'bad' weather

Our housing access is probably the worst in the world - housing access, assuming you mean availability, I would think homeless ppl all over the world would disagree with you - far worse off countries.

Our health system is broken - much alike alot of other countries, worse in the US if you dont have money then you die!

Our housing prices are high but that does not benefit anyone but investors - same as alot of other countries

boardsdotie44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122970932#Comment_122970932

Can you list these countries please? The list of whats wrong with this country according to you is very specific, would like to see what other countries you rate so highly on them:

Our weather is terrible

Our housing access is probably the worst in the world

Our health system is broken

Our housing prices are high but that does not benefit anyone but investors.

boardsdotie44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971045#Comment_122971045

Well done backing it up lol this in no way proves that we are the worst in the world

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971879#Comment_122971879

"if I lived here I probably would have voted for Brexit because it felt like nothing positive had happened there in decades"

No if you lived there you would have "emigrated" within the UK like all the smart people do. The English "emigrate" just as much as we do it's just nobody notices because it's within England.

None of my London friends are from there and are all from these "left behind" places. They have no sympathy for the people still in these towns wasting away and blaming everyone else.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973130#Comment_122973130

That's not exactly a great national attitude to have though, because underinvestment in the post industrial areas returned the higher Leave votes, and Leave vote areas weren't confined to the north, lots of areas surrounding London went for Brexit too.

Going back to the Shannon special trading zone in the 1950s at least we had a policy of getting new industry into where there was simply no industry before. There's a reason why Chinese premiers go in pilgrimage to Shannon as China copied our policies to help moderise a mostly agrarian society.

In 1970 around 40% of our population lived/worked in a purely agrarian setting, now employment in that sector is down around 4%.

In the UK whole cities were simply left to rot, Detroit's but with thousands upon thousands of terraced houses.

Mobius2021

Ireland is doing well but hard to discount historical wealth.

Different countries but I was amazed by Copenhagen when I visited in 2023. In terms of buildings and infrastructure it's clear to anyone that the Danish have been a wealthy country for a long-time. Hard to describe, a sort of understated wealth.

We're not fully there yet but we're getting there. I would like to see less waste of public money and most ambition when It comes to infrastructure. It's almost a hundred years now since the government of the time green lit the building of Ardnacrusha, a huge project, and we struggling at the moment to build a good road between Cork and Limerick.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973067#Comment_122973067

I found my shopping in London significantly cheaper than in Limerick. Stuff that cost £1 on Lidl cost €2 here. In Ireland the "deal" on good brand shower gel will be €3.50 whereas in London there was always the same brands on £1 or £1.50 deals.

I found the disparity in price between living the good life and a thrifty one to be way bigger in England but if you want to live very cheap you can in London.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973144#Comment_122973144

Most of those "left behind" places were rural areas that sprouted a city/town for a single reason like a mill or mine.

The people immigrated in for that single reason and now it's gone so time to emigrate out.

It's a very very recent notion that it's your right to have the jobs come to you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973151#Comment_122973151

Ardnacrusha was recently at war because someone built a Windmill on their farm. Could you imagine the NIMBYism, selfishness and scare tactics if someone tried to build Ardnacrusha power station and tributary river today.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972010#Comment_122972010

What I do barely exists in Ireland. I'm quite amenable to returning to Ireland but the issue is housing, honestly. Dublin just feels like a worse version of London and places like Galway have a cost of living that's almost as high as London. Also, I can't really emigrate as I wouldn't qualify for a state pension anywhere but the UK. I think I can keep paying into the British system if I emigrate but I don't know how that works.

The idea of being poor here is terrifying, honestly. The state supports have been eroded to the point of non-existence by Conservative austerity. There's barely anything one can claim and, worse, there's almost no culture of improving one's situation outside of going to University where a degree will cost most of £100,000 now.

I think English schools are improving but social care, and presumably foster care, are f*cked, honestly.

I stand by my comment that anyone who has a decent-paying job would have a better standard of living in some northern English towns and cities than in Ireland though obviously there are proper kips like Sunderland and Middlesbrough which are better off avoided.

I work in research and can count on one hand the amount of people from London I've met. I've lived here for over 8 years. UK wages are crap, as confirmed for me by asking anyone who's come from abroad or lived abroad, though taxes are lower and groceries feel a bit cheaper. The GP is free but the less said about the NHS the better.

Basically, if I was poor I'd be fleeing back to Ireland on the next Ryanair flight.

Mobius2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973181#Comment_122973181

True, the NIMBYism culture is a killer for getting things done.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973181#Comment_122973181

Have you been to Blackburn, Rochdale, Bradford etc...?

It was a decision to run down UK industry while other European nations didn't.

It was our decision to invest heavily in sciences in education to attract industry like biomed and pharma to Ireland to broaden our economic mix.

Ironically thatcher did invest for Britain to become a leader in the semiconductor industry, but once ousted those investments in semiconductor chip making in Sunderland were sold off to an unknown Taiwanese company called tscm which is now the biggest employer there.

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973163#Comment_122973163

Strongly disagree,a middle class lifestyle is much more expensive in London

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973220#Comment_122973220

Which nations didn't ?

France has the exact same problems with far right voters and most of it in the post mining areas like Nord Pas de Calais.

In Ireland yes we invested in science but that is mostly centred around the cities and we are seeing a big movement of our workforce to the cities.

You have to remember that the likes of Blackburn might look big to us but they are just another town to the English. It's the 47th biggest town which puts it in the same place as Mallow or Middleton and there's hundreds of them.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973261#Comment_122973261

You are not disagreeing at all. That's pretty much what I said about the disparity being greater. I said it is far more possible to live thrifty or on the cheap.

That is not living a middle class lifestyle.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968855#Comment_122968855

GDP is mainly a measure of multinational activity in Ireland and not a true measure of Irish wealth. The CSO got their fingers wrapped a few years ago when they reported unbelievable numbers for Irish growth rates, that was termed "leprechaun economics "

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973144#Comment_122973144

And folks in London wonder why the North sees them as out of touch, Thatcher probably improved the overall GDP of the UK considerably but it came at the expense of the regions , the UK had a world class manufacturing base not that long ago and rather than maintain the economic regions like the model Germany pursued,bet everything on London as a global financial titan

China benefited more than anyone

felonious_Gru

One area the UK without doubt beats us is planning laws for houses, ever travel through rural England, Scotland and Wales?, they don't have one off housing, only farm houses are in the middle of nowhere, a lot of Irish people aren't aware how much of an outlier our ribbon development is

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973265#Comment_122973265

The jist of my argument is that we invested in attracting industry, whereas in the UK it seemed that they lost interest entirely and sold it off, their nascent semiconductor industry being strangled prematurely is an example of an industry that they could be a world leader in now, like Taiwan is; Britain's loss was directly Taiwan's gain in that instance.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973727#Comment_122973727

Ya I'm not defending the UK's investment policy at all.

But it's no excuse for people who sat on their holes blaming everyone else and voting for Brexit.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973751#Comment_122973751

For decades they were fed a stream of lies of why the EU was to blame for what were domestic policies.

I wouldn't be too harsh towards voters who've been gaslight for decades.

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973300#Comment_122973300

china and India benefited a lot because environmental and health and safety legislation quite rightly meant costs went up.

Much easier to get things made in countries where these things are not a factor.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973770#Comment_122973770

All true of course.

The UK's investment policy is too reliant on FDI. All British companies I can name are owned by foreigners now and the manufacturing sector was decimated by Thatcher. The only thing I can say to defend UK investment policy is that unemployment has traditionally been low and this tends to make governments wary of radical action.

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973771#Comment_122973771

So explain Germany?

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122973770#Comment_122973770

Same thing happens Americans with respect of Israel, constant brainwashing