Would you support a basic aptitude test in order to vote?

Markus Antonius

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830137#Comment_122830137

If a politician can't keep the roads fixed (roads being the blood loop of the country) then how can they be trusted with anything serious? Maybe a road fixing politician wouldn't have pissed 3 billion away on a children's hospital or 350k on a bike shed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122829937#Comment_122829937

Well you are not painting a good perspective on tradesmen if you think they couldn't pass such a test. It would be a test on some basic Irish history and how the political system works etc. Basic knowledge that appears horrifically lacking in a broad span of the voter base

HalloweenJack

Not for political elections but I would be in favour of such a test when it comes to referendums, i e. voters must demonstrate that they understand what they are actually voting for or against instead of parroting misinformed nonsense.

Mannesmann

No

It's just unworkable.

Enter Username Here

Yes

Isn't that just similar to Epistocracy, or a form of it?

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/23/17581394/against-democracy-book-epistocracy-jason-brennan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_democracy

martingriff

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830137#Comment_122830137

A couple of questions.

1. How will this test be organised to test all people eligible to vote?
2. Who sets this test?
3. Who do you get to supervise when people are been tested?
4. Who corrects theses tests to make sure its done right?
5. Who pays for the people in questions 2,3 and 4?
6. Does these tests have to be done once or each election or referendum?
7. If people who pass still vote the same will you be satisfied or try to come up with other tests?
8. Is there a passing grade?

Mellor

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058380322/would-you-support-a-basic-aptitude-test-in-order-to-vote

Those countries have citizenship tests, they are not "right to vote tests". That misunderstanding is where you idea falls apart. It seems like a bad idea to set a level of knowledge required to vote, than the majority of the electorate does not have to pass, and likely would not pass.

BTW You are describing a general knowledge test. Not an aptitude test.

Mellor

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122829937#Comment_122829937

Why are you assuming that a tradesman wouldn't pass an basic knowledge test? That's an astonishingly ignorant view tbh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830751#Comment_122830751

How does testing the local language and general knowledge not require reading? You may not need to write anything if its multiple choice, but you have to at least read the questions and answers

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833184#Comment_122833184

The test that I did when I was naturalised as an Australian citizen was an oral test — I was asked questions at an interview, and I gave the answers verbally.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833184#Comment_122833184

They are one on one interviews/chats.

Mellor

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833187#Comment_122833187

How long ago was that, and how old were you?

The current test is multiple choice on a computer, similar to the driver's theory test. It's been like that for a long time, not sure what the process was before. But bome people are exempt and have an interview instead, which is as you describe.

Mellor

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833221#Comment_122833221

As above, the Australian test is definitely a test. Multiple choice, there is a pass mark (75%). There is a practise test online. The UK test is the same, solo test. Not sure about the US. I remember seeing a written test on a TC show, but vaguely recall Biden reverting an oral test

Peregrinus

I did it more than 15 years ago, when I was in my forties. If I recall correctly, I had a partial exemption because, being an Irish citizen, I was taken to have a sufficient command of English, but I had to answer questions that were supposed to demonstrate some knowledge of Australia, and some understanding of the rights and duties of citizenship. It was administered orally, at a one-to-one interview. At the time, I think that was standard.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that it's mostly done via multiple choice questions on a screen nowadays, but if so there must be accomodations made for people who are blind, illiterate, etc. Literacy is not a requirement for citizenship (though a basic capacity to speak and understand English is).

Back in the day when various US states had literacy or other tests for voting, I think they were nearly all administered orally, by the polling clerk, when you turned up to vote, in public. They weren't administered to all voters; the polling clerk had a discretion about who to test, and how rigorously to test them. The public and arbitrary nature of the process was part of the mechanism by which black people, migrants, etc were deterred from voting, even if fully qualified.

osarusan

I think people who come up with ideas like this shouldn't be allowed to vote.

circadian

No

No, it's completely undemocratic.

For example, if this were enforced I would consider someone who thinks speeding in an average camera zone is OK because they'll stop in the hard shoulder at the end, too stupid to vote.

In reality, I feel it is wrong to remove their democratic right to vote.

Brian?

No

Anyone with this idea fails the test, IMO.

Voting is a right, given by the constitution. Your either give it to everyone or no one.

Sleepy

In general I like the idea but the complications arise pretty quickly: who sets the test? What should it's focus on?

What I would like to see, and have argued in favour of for years is all candidates being put up for election requiring qualification. A free-to-sit test on the basic principles of economics, government, our constitution and sociology. We could have prep courses run through the existing Adult Education network (or after hours in even in Secondary schools) which would be available free-of-charge to any Irish citizen over the age of 18.

Reducing the ignorance levels of our TDs, MEPs and Local Councillors wouldn't guarantee better government but I don't see how it could hurt!

dulpit

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833556#Comment_122833556

Adding barriers to the nomination process reduces democracy

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058380322/would-you-support-a-basic-aptitude-test-in-order-to-vote

Would that not rule yourself out of voting?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122831601#Comment_122831601

Stupid people never realise they are stupid

You might think someone is stupid and they might think you are stupid?
So who is the stupid one?

You have people who are maths genius and yet can’t hold a conversation in a typical sense.

Not sure how anyone can claim or try to claim they are less stupid than someone else so their vote should count for more

Stupid idea to me 🤣

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833599#Comment_122833599

I fail to see how that's a problem. If you're not capable of passing a "Governance 101" course, you're not capable of representing those whose vote you're seeking.

dulpit

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833635#Comment_122833635

Who decides what "Governance 101" is? How do you ensure that this "test" can't be altered in such a way to keep certain people away from elections?

Sleepy

The content would be pretty much self explanatory:

• The electoral process
• The systems and procedures of the Dáil (e.g. how does one propose legislation, what requirements are there to get it passed etc.)
• The Constitution

Nice to haves:

• A basic introduction to economics (Supply/Demand, effects of inflation etc.)
• Critical Thinking, Logic & Oratory

The core of the argument is this: we don't hire unqualified teachers for our schools, doctors must be qualified to work in the HSE, drivers need a licence before they're allowed to take to the road so why do we allow ignorant, unqualified people to run for election?

In order to prevent this being a barrier to democracy, the qualification needs to be free and accessible to all citizens over the age of 18. We already have institutions which can provide this (and on-line education portals definitely could keep costs down). Sure, it'd probably end up costing a few million a year and there'd be loads of tyre-kickers who'd take the course without ever standing for office but a better educated electorate is never a bad thing and the status quo where any eejit who can get the votes has the opportunity to damage our country.

KildareP

No

It's impossible to arrive at a test that would be fair and impartial.

For example - some of the most experienced and qualified accountants in the banking industry brought the global economy to its knees in the global financial crash by doing the very thing an accountant shouldn't do - operating outside of their means. They'd probably ace an aptitude test, does that make them better than someone with no qualifications, and perhaps poor literacy skills, but who manages to get by on the relatively small means available to them?

You could also take Michael O'Leary's angle on this - a Dail full of highly educated educators, doing a less than stellar job in managing large sections of our society. Would someone with a Masters in Education be more worthy of a vote than someone with a trade?

And then when you look at issues facing Ireland today it becomes a minefield as to where your position on matters such as immigration, housing, healthcare determines or impacts your aptitude.

scottser

It would be a fine idea to only give the vote to those who are intelligent enough to make sensible decisions on behalf of the majority of citizens but unfortunately democracy doesn't work like that. To me, if you pay tax here you should be able to vote despite your nationality because you are invested and you pay for public services. We have a large number of Irish citizens who choose not to work, and while they don't usually vote anyway it wouldn't do society any harm to suspend their ability to vote until they have 12 months of contributions behind them.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058380322/would-you-support-a-basic-aptitude-test-in-order-to-vote

First of all it is not an aptitude test, it is a knowledge test….

And second and most important, you are talking about one of the post sophisticated electorates in Europe next to the Swiss and there is no indication at all that these people are unable to figure out what they want to do. They have twice refused to change the PR system as proposed by FF, while giving FF the biggest majority they had up to that point on the same day, they have likewise given favour to FG on the same day the refused to remove the upper house and the age limit for the president and the list goes on.

From my point of view anyone who thinks the Irish voters are not capable of figuring out what they want, is just looking for an excuse for their failure before the electorate or just don't understand the politics.

dulpit

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834435#Comment_122834435

Pensioners may not be paying tax. Students may not be paying tax. Stay at home parents may not be paying tax. Carers may not be paying tax. People with illness may not be paying tax. People with disabilities may not be paying tax.

Should all of them be disenfranchised?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834909#Comment_122834909

Pensioners, those on illness benefits, students etc are obviously exempt in my not-really-well-thought-out Utopian vision..

But yeah, it's a murky conversation talking about taking the vote from anyone. On the contrary, the point I was trying to make, albeit badly, is that those who are currently denied the vote because they are not naturalised citizens even though they are paying tax here should be more eligible to vote than a scobie crim who's never worked a day in their life. But that's just the Farage coming out in me.

ELM327

Aptitude for what?
I would support a literacy, IQ, and political theory test.

dulpit

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122835494#Comment_122835494

Well on part of what you said I'd agree with you - I think people resident here who are affected by the laws passed in the Dáil should be entitled to vote for those politicians, regardless of their citizenship. I also think Irish citizens who live abroad should have a dedicated constituency where they can vote for so that their interests can be represented too.

Mellor

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833241#Comment_122833241

I asked about age as under 18s, and over 60s do not sit the citizenship test and do an interview (didn't want to assume you age 😁). Also exempt are people who incapable in some way (blind, mobility needs, etc).
Irish citizenship give exemption from needing to sit an external English test, but not the citizenship test.

I'm pretty sure the test was computer based since introduction, but the test hasn't been around that long. Less than 20 years for sure. If your got citizenship say 17/18 years ago. It's possible you were just in before the strcutured test. And it was more of a chat.