UNIFIL mission imperiled - middle east conflict Oct 24

Larbre34

We discuss and debate plans and politics and funding and societal attitudes to the DF on here every day, often in the abstract.

But today, right now, the whole UNIFIL mission, its 10,000 personnel, its 347 strong Irish contingent within and specifically a 37 man Irish platoon at an outpost, are under threat from outrageous conduct by the Israeli government, the IDF and their conflict with the Hizbollah and Lebanese Army side.

What should the UN and Irish government be doing now to repudiate the Israeli action? Is there a risk of hostilities?

I wouldn't normally be a fan of President Higgins' overstepping into the political space with his own views, but as Supreme Commander of the Irish Defence Forces, I can only agree with his characterisation of what is taking place and his condemnation of it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2024/1005/1473741-unifil-lebanon/

roadmaster

If the UN pull out thats the end of the UN worldwide. No UN there both sides could easily end up commiting another srebrenica.

The UN needs to reinforce the Irish Post & Troops and ensure eyes are kept on the IDF and the Iranian proxies so the world knows what both sides are at.

 

sparky42

it’s not the first time UNFIL have been on the ground when there’s been military action, outside of how much more “visible” it is to us in the modern age compared to previous wars im not sure what exactly has changed?

sparky42

Also Micky D has made it clear that he’s no fan of the DF or any attempt to improve our situation, trotting out the “concern of the Supreme Commander” rings a bit hollow in that case.

csirl

Whats happening is entirely predictable given the recent exchanges between some of our politcians and Israel. Its difficult to imagine the Israelis not doing something to humiliate or damage our troops. If they have to evacuate, there's zero chance they'll be allowed get any heavy equipment out.

Wanderer78

know of a chap that was serving out there earlier in the year, was due home during the summer, unsure if he did make it home, hope ta god hes okay

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688169#Comment_122688169

they wanted all of UNFIL forces to move out of the way not just us, so it’s a bit of a stretch to connect it to the deterioration of Irish-Israeli relations, further more it wouldn't be the first time they have hit UN posts so again nothing new there. As to pulling out, if that happens UN peacekeeping missions globally are pretty much DOA so I don’t see that happening unless things get even worse.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688176#Comment_122688176

There’s reportedly about 70 troops that were home on leave that haven’t been sent back yet.

Larbre34

Fair point. But then, we have had blanket live coverage available since the Gulf War of 91, it has only intensified in the social media age.

I suppose that what has changed, if anything, is the question whether UNIFIL is at all viable, at all relevant anymore.

What has also changed, is Israel totally slipping the leash and abandoning any pretence of proportionality and restraint.

Is a UN peacekeeping mission absolutely pointless in this region now?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688300#Comment_122688300

we haven’t had the level of social media/instant communication like now though, I mean if you take that article in the Indo today complaining about the stress of not getting quick replies from the troops and compare it to anything what pre 2000 when families just didn’t have such communication at all. Now it clearly means more direct stress for families, but is it any real change for the troops on the ground?

Of course there’s questions as to whether the mission is viable, or is the mandate enough, but changing that in the middle of a war on the basis of one nation wanting an even freer hand to take military action is the wrong time to make such changes. Pulling out now signals that all Peacekeeping missions will implode whenever one side or the other escalates things.

It may very well be that UNFIL collapses, but Israel shouldn’t get to make that choice.

Larbre34

OK, I'd agree with that.

So what to do to push back against their intimidation now?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689426#Comment_122689426

they’ve been told “No UNFIL isn’t moving”, for now that’s where things stand.

Larbre34

Fine, but the outpost containing the Irish platoon remains blockaded by Israeli main battle tanks, artillery pieces and military earth movers. The troops are stuck in an underground bunker while the IDF launch artillery from the position and attract counter fire onto it.

That is absolutely intolerable, and so far all that has happened is a letter from the Under Sec Gen for Peace Operations to Israel, which has been ignored.

When is the UNIFIL force protection unit going to roll armour to the position and break this illegal Israeli action?

Anything less, and UN peacekeeping is a bust as a concept, globally.

mike kelly

The Minister of Defence needs to take action against family members speaking to the media. These people are just causing stress to the other families and are undermining the morale of our troops.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692361#Comment_122692361

it is interesting that the Indo has had two articles along those lines, even the headline today about “there being teenagers there” is highly emotive, even if there are 18/19 year olds in the unit, they are adults not child soldiers, and joined the DF. I agree that it’s not particularly helpful for the issue.

Larbre34

It isn't helpful for sure, but really neither the Tánaiste nor Chief of Staff have any control over what family members talk to the media about, unless it strays into operational compromise, which it likely would not, given the low level of information they routinely get.

FlataytoOne

I’m just wondering what’s the Indo’s angle? Is there a voice in the back ear trying to encourage withdrawal?

Larbre34

Tánaiste this morning not ruling out that the next battalion rotation to UNIFIL may not be able to happen as planned. He says it will be evaluated closer to the current deadline.

mike kelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693395#Comment_122693395

The Army could inform family members who speak to the media that either they shutup or their relatives in the army will be excluded from future service in the Lebanon.

Obviously this would be tough on the soldiers themselves. The Lebanon is popular with our troops and no doubt some are quite happy to get away from their wives for a few months. A former soldier friend of mine told me all about the R+R visits to Israel and the good times to be had in Tel Aviv.

Some of the women who have been on the Joe Duffy show this week would make be want to join Hisbollah, never mind UNIFIL.

Dr.Tom

My father was serving there with UNIFIL during the invasion in 1982.

If you know of anyone that served there at that time then its worth listening to their take on the current situation.

ingalway

If only UNIFIL, and by that I mean the UN and not the soldiers on the ground, had carried out their own Resolution 1701 over the last 17 years - move Hezbollah back behind the Letani River, disarm them and return southern Lebanon back to the control of the Lebanese government rather than being run by terrorists who fire thousands of rockets into Israel then this mess did not need to happen.

10,000 UNIFIL there for 18 years and a bigger Hezbollah than ever with 200,000 rockets pointed at Israel, supplied by Iran, who openly want the destruction of Israel. What should Israel do with Hezbollah to their north, Hamas to their south who both celebrated 7 Oct and promise to repeat it again and again?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699785#Comment_122699785

We don't live in an autocracy. No such threats would ever be made.

In any case, I'm pleased the that the diplomatic network eventually ending up getting the IDF to move their units away from the Irish position.

It is important that they weren't permitted to dictate terms to a UN mandated operation on soil foreign to them.

roadmaster

Taken below from RTE, Cathal berry must be following my posts.

He said that it reinforces the determination that there will be no more Srebrenica's, "not on our watch."

Larbre34

Its a little late for that, I would suggest.

Besides, the former Yugoslavia campaign was mandated UN peace enforcement, backed up by a considerable NATO air force, and they still dithered when it came to situations like Srebrenica.

But if there is no Security Council action against Israel for these latest attacks, then you might as well write off UN peacekeeping as a thing. Its a hollow as a polo mint if the major powers will not stand up and back these mandates.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705999#Comment_122705999

You act like this is the first time this has happened?

Larbre34

It isn't of course, but it has to be seen in the context of this current unchecked Israeli aggression. This undisguised retribution against civilians and civil infrastructure.

suvigirl

And how much worse could it be, if the UN didn't have a presence in the area?

roadmaster

What is the story with all the articles from the Indo with pulling troops out?

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/plans-in-place-for-irish-peacekeepers-to-pull-out-as-unifil-condemns-israeli-attacks-on-its-positions/a293494939.html

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122706619#Comment_122706619

You think Israel is being checked in some fashion, by the presence of UNIFIL in this area?

If that is your opinion, can I suggest that Israel are bombing and shelling wherever they want, whenever they want, with however much force they want, regardless.

And now we wake to news that UNIFIL and the UN peacekeeping administration have confirmed that the IDF have deliberately targeted UNIFIL positions with direct ****ing fire!

I'd be quite clear, to Sparky too, that we are in new territory now.

Larbre34

Co-signed statement of the 34 UNIFIL contributors, issued by Poland.

As another UNIFIL serviceman is hit by gunfire at Naquora HQ, requiring surgery.

When the **** is the Security Council going to back this mandate with force, or withdraw it?

Larbre34

The evacuation to Cyprus needs to take place immediately.

It is clear now that the Israeli leadership is deranged and means to engage the UN forces.

Its not for the 10,000 UNIFIL personnel to fight this fascism.

Mannesmann

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715006#Comment_122715006

Perhaps you are correct but who is to fight it? The UN as in Korea after world war two was meant to enforce peace.

roadmaster

Do the french still have there Leclerc tanks deployed with UNIFIL?

irishgeo

An Israeli statement said Hezbollah was using the bases as hiding places and as areas to launch attacks. Last week it was the Israeli tanks parked up beside the UN outpost though.

That statement gives carte blanche to blow the UN outposts up now like hospitals and everything else. Because Hezbollah is "hiding" in them.

Israel is out of control and needs to reigned in fast.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122707055#Comment_122707055

again, we aren’t in new territory, this conduct by Israel is no different than its invasion of Lebanon in the 80s including its conduct towards UNFIL, nor is it different to their conduct in the 00s border war with Hezzbullah. I’m not sure why you keep acting like the IDF has suddenly gone openly hostile to everyone else? This is their default tactics.

As for a “check”, Israel very much wants UNFIL out of the way, perhaps to try its Gaza “tactics” on Southern Lebanon, all of which means there is every reason for UNFIL to hold their positions and make damn sure the world can’t look away.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122704289#Comment_122704289

A lovely statement.

I have three observations.

1. The UN doesn't have a great track record of stopping Srebrenicas. They were there already at the actual Srebrenica. "The eyes of the world" weren't much of a stopper. Prevention of massacre was a stated goal of the UN operation in Bosnia, the UNIFIL mission is of monitoring and support. There is no active role described beyond assistance and co-operation, UNIFIL is not planned to, or resourced to, conduct such activities, and the Israelis apparently don't much care right now who they make angry.
2. The Israelis don't have much of a history of Srebrenicas. Whatever their own internal red line is, I don't believe they have ever lined up a hundred civilians at a time and machinegunned them. If after the end of this someone (eg Berry) comes out and says "We did our job, there were no Srebenicas", I'm going to point and laugh at the logical fallacy involved.
3. "You and what army?" Who in the area has both the capability and willingness to forcibly stop the Israeli military from doing whatever it wants to? The US Navy? Even Turkey likely isn't really all that inclined. However many Javelins the Irish brought along, it won't stop a single Israeli F-16.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716200#Comment_122716200

It was one of the fallacies of the UNDOF (Golan Heights) mission Ireland was involved in at the start. They were based in Israel, and had to cross the Israeli boarder crossing to patrol their area. There was numerous occasions the gates were locked due to "operational restrictions".

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718927#Comment_122718927

I wouldn't go that far. Peacekeeping (as opposed to peace enforcing) still has a purpose, and seems to be operating reasonably well in a lot of places around the globe. Cyprus seems to be fairly quiet over the last few decades for example. Whether this is the result of the UN or not is another argument, but it's impossible to prove a negative. Presumably people think so, though, or the UN still wouldn't still be covering the expense of the Blue Line there.

Whether it is fit for purpose in the specific context in South Lebanon is another question entirely, and worth asking, but that's the other thread. If we're going to continue this question here, I'm going to merge the threads.

Larbre34

https://www.thejournal.ie/monument-to-irish-peacekeepers-killed-in-lebanon-damaged-and-irish-funded-orphanage-destroyed-6530898-Nov2024/

Disgusting.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; either give UNIFIL the firepower and the mandate to do the job it is there to do, or pull all 10,000 of them the **** out of there permanently.