Cocaine Destroying Rural Ireland

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520481#Comment_122520481

Whether alcohol contributed to civilization or not doesn't mean that it is needed to sustain that civilization afterwards.

Yes obviously there are uses for drugs in a medical setting and even if more strictly controlled some medication would be abused but a few people abusing drugs is a hell of a lot better than a huge amount of the population doing drugs and all the problems that causes and the trauma that gets passed down generation to generation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523553#Comment_122523553

I wouldn't call it "habitual" - but same question: if someone consumes a drug on an occasional basis, doesn't OD or act like a jerk in public, enjoys themselves and the experience and never feels the NEED to do it - how does that make it "irrespeonsible"? How does it make it "habitual"?

I take you point about the cartels and frankly its one of the reasons I don't do it often, but twice a year and I'm not the one paying for it is hardly keeping cartels in business. The most common drugs I do are legally produced (I'm in Berlin) and that only leaves psychedlics, one of which does not have cartels and the other grows naturally in forests.

Tomaldo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122514156#Comment_122514156

I read this "great article" in the printed edition (library). He compares dealers to the Black and Tans? says cannabis is a dangerous and gateway drug. His final 3 short sentences are comedy gold. "The war can be won", more than one U.S. president said something similar. "Ireland is small and it's hard to hide a crime" Prisons are about a million times smaller with 24/7 security and we can't keep drugs out of those institutions. "We just need more resources" How much and from where? The Health budget, close a few hospitals? Education, shut down some schools? Increase taxes? with an election soon, I doubt it. As you said rural Garda stations have closed, Justice Dept also has a limited budget. Quality journalism, ha, but thanks for the post, it reminds me why I stopped buying newspapers. ,

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523459#Comment_122523459

There is really no need to compare Ireland with USA and think we are going to face some fentanyl epidemic. I would be more concerned about crack than fentanyl use.

According to latest stats there are approximately 36 alcohol related deaths vs 18 drugs related death per million (in the EU).

As for Ireland 4 people die a day attributable to alcohol vs 1 attributable to drugs. So that is 4 to 1 with one state sanctioned drug vs all of the other illegal drugs combined.

Sorry but there is no such thing as social or responsible drinking. These are constructs only to make state sanctioned addictive substance use to appear semi-normal.

You either drink, snort, inject, inhale or you don't.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523553#Comment_122523553

I am not the one you addressed your question but I can offer you my answer.

Q.

How are you rationalizing that as being socially responsible?

A.

The very same way everyone is rationalizing drinking alcohol which is known carcinogen so alcohol consumption can't be and isn't socially responsible. Mainly considering how many people drink alcohol VS minuscule percentage of society who consume other currently illegal drugs.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523648#Comment_122523648

If we go by known and well documented example there is simply minimum risk that

"a huge amount of the population doing drugs and all the problems that causes and the trauma that gets passed down generation to generation"

scenario is ever going to happen. I understand the fear of it but it seems to be just subjective thing not based on any evidence.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/599683/cannabis-usage-in-the-netherlands/#:~:text=Less%20than%20a%20quarter%20of,edible)%20in%20the%20last%20month.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523559#Comment_122523559

The years 1870 - 1914 are called 'The Great Binge', when everyone was off their chunk on legal, over-the-counter medications. It culminated in World War 1.

The Great Binge - Wikipedia

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524376#Comment_122524376

Oh, so nothing to do with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand or a complex network of treaties and alliances….?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524376#Comment_122524376

No. It did not culminated in WWI. It was not a cause of it in any way shape or form. It ended because of laws coming in effect which outlawed most of the substances.

And while they were legal even though there were some problems with certain percentage of people abusing them society was still functioning and life was normal. Pretty much the same situation as it is today except that East India Company was substituted by Mexican cartels and government lost control and taxable income.

CookingGuy

Most people are fine doing a few bumps on the weekend a few people can't handle it nothing to do with living in rural areas

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524425#Comment_122524425

And why did they make that network of treaties and alliances?

Largely because the three cousins of the ruling royal families of the time were off-chunk paranoid and hated each other. Their cabinets were greedy, off-chunk, paranoid, hated each other and their subjects were mostly just off-chunk.

King George V - Morphine and cocaine addict

Kaiser Willhelm II - Huge Morhpine and laudanum user from an early age

Tsar Nicholas II - Cocaine addict. Cocaine was called 'The Tsar of Drugs' in Russia.

I replied to a post above that stated

'There are examples throughout the world and history that supervised and legal use of any addictive substance does not end up with chaos or civilizational collapse'

Arguably, the free availablity of drugs and alcohol contributed to the first World War. In fact, if you were to view history through a lens of substance misusers and their influence on power and politics it would be a real revelation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524479#Comment_122524479

Yeah... you're still miles away from establishing a connection there. Correlation is not causation.

You could just as easily say it aculminated in the Easter rising.

Doc07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523863#Comment_122523863

perhaps a small nuance on this is that there is at least some amount of fair trade alcohol, and perhaps even fair trade hash(eg small home grown etc) Not trying to apologise for the massive behemoths like Diageo who want us all addicted to their wares but there is a credible amount of commercially and socially reasonable alcohol use.

However, there is absolutely no fair trade or craft cocaine ,

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524579#Comment_122524579

And you say that the cause of World War 1 was due to a treaty network and the assassination of an archduke but that is still only a fraction of the picture, and is itself only correlation.

scottser

Apropos of nothing, Diageo are the mains sponsors of the 'Drink Aware' campaign. It's sole message is that alcohol is not addictive, is not destructive in and of itself and it is not the problem - the problem is you, the consumer. A very 'guns don't kill people' message. It's an extremely cynical way to protect their profits. The gambling industry is arguable far worse, but that's probably for another thread.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524650#Comment_122524650

It's a biit more than correlation if you know your history and you're not even defending your owm point at this stage.

Back on topic - drugs in modern Ireland not the causes of WW1.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524666#Comment_122524666

This id agree with, but are they.really saying alcohol is not addictive? (Honest question - not in Ireland, so don't lnow)

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122524630#Comment_122524630

I think the level of alcohol that is harmless/socially acceptable is a lot lower that what the vast majority of people believe.

Habitual low level alcohol consumption (say 7 pints spread out over the week, be it 2-3 sitting or 7 sittings) will increase

*your cancer risk by between 4-10% per 10g of alcohol

*lead to increased baseline cortisol production(i.e. increased stress level) in the medium to long term

*decreased mood

Heavy drinking under the age of 25 leads to substantial increased risk of alcohol dependance in later life

I write as someone who loves alcohol, whether consumed socially, at home solo, with food etc etc. While it doesn't get a free pass it certainly gets an easy time when you examine the total harm in causes in society.

As to why cocaine is more popular; south American drug cartels saw Europe as an untapped wealthy market and strategically targeted it. Hence Europe in general is awash with cocaine and it is accessible almost anywhere and most areas of Europe have seen increased use and consumption.

The major issue I'd have with taking cocaine rather than say alcohol/prescription drugs is that with cocaine I putting my well being in the hands of a line of (unts from Colombia to my local supplier who could have added anything to it along the way. With regulated medicines/alcohol I know exactly what I'm getting.

Doc07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525131#Comment_122525131

Agree, there is no risk free alcohol use (increase risk of cancer, heart disease, liver disease, dementia etc etc ) but there is a credible amount of socially reasonable and commercially reasonable use.

Even if many of the end users are reasonable members of society (and of course massive overlap with those who drink) , there is no such equivalent of a reasonable or fair trade type cocaine business in terms of the supply

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523863#Comment_122523863

And you should thank whatever deity you believe in if any that we don't have a fentanyl epidemic like the US. I've been following the opioid crisis in the US and those things are just straight up devastating communities. From rural regions like West Virginia and New Hampshire, to places like the Kensington district in Philadelphia, the latter of which is as close as we have in the Western world to being a post-apocalyptic zombie hellscape.

Anyone comparing alcohol or cannabis - the latter of which has documented health benefits to people with some serious conditions - to any of these harder drugs (especially synthetic opioids) cannot be taken seriously.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122526146#Comment_122526146

Its not comparing them, it's pointing out they are all drugs and that they all have the capability to become addictive.

The ultimate question is: should the legality/prohibition of a drug be based on its safety/danger or its social acceptance?

drury..

If cocaine is sold legally usage will go up

If illegal drugs are decriminalized and sold legally the black market continues

For better or worse the above statements are true.

Darkweb prices for cannabis in US are about half the shop prices . Government adds tax etc

Less effort from law enforcement after decriminalization and legalization

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122527574#Comment_122527574

Usage may spike temporarily but will stabilize at the same levels it is there now. You can compare percentage of users for example in Netherlands or some other countries which legalized some drugs. Portugal decriminalized use of hard drugs and usage and number of addicts did not went up.

There simply are people who will try it no matter if it is legal or not and then there are people who wont touch the stuff even if it was for free.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122528376#Comment_122528376

There's a key difference here between decriminalization and legalisation though.

There's going to be a section of society who would buy a drug if it was as easy as walking into a shop and getting a known quantity that has some levels of quality control about it, who simply won't buy that same drug if they need to go through the hassle of finding a drug dealer.

I'd be one of those people. There are certain recreational drugs that are currently illegal in this country that I'm not going to try and find. However if I could buy them in some sort of dispensary or shop (like you can in Amsterdam) then I would, on occasion, do that.

Similarly if alcohol was made illegal I'd give up drinking it rather than try and source some from a bootlegger.

The point I'm making is - I wouldn't expect the number of heroin users to have gone up in Portugal after they decriminalized it since that's a drug that's not very attractive for new users and besides they'd till need to find a drug dealer for it.

However I suspect that there were an increase in the numbers of users of cannabis in places that legalised it. I'm thinking specifically of middle aged people, who might like to buy some cannabis on the odd occasion but wouldn't know how to or want to find drug dealers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122528835#Comment_122528835

If cannabis was legal and people didnt wan tto go through a dealer, theyd more than likely just learn to grow it themselves. Not really an option with coke, I know.

As for dealers, people can just go through friends and trusted sources. T

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122528835#Comment_122528835

I agree. But then some of these people (me included) may find that it is not what they thought it would be and that would be it for them. As I said usage may spike a bit after legalization but then it would settle around pretty much the same numbers as it is now. Perhaps a bit higher but nowhere close to something alarming. Stats from Netherland show that despite availability very few people actually participate and somewhere I even read that if not tourists more than half of the shops and cafes would have to close.

Heroin is different thing but these people gave up on life long time ago. They do it because it is easier for them than deal with life and take pleasure from other things. Same go for crack users but cocaine is completely different and I would say that most of it is connected with alcohol consumption. At least that is what I see on weekends when people from pubs go round the corner and whip out small bottles with tiny spoons while still holding their pints on. And these are not junkies you see on the street asking for spare change for the hostel. These are neatly dressed people in all age categories man and women alike. It become some sort of a culture to go for a pint and some of other stuff and when you ask them why do they do it they look at you like you came from the mars.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122529119#Comment_122529119

You do not really have to even look for a dealer. There is so many of them freelancing out there that if you just hang out near any pub they will come to you. And it is not even pubs and evening. Stay on the street for a few minutes and walk around a bit and you will get an offer of pretty much anything from the most common things like weed, white or brown. Lol when they asked me first time if I want white or brown I was like WTF is he going on about?

You may need connections if you want some exotic stuff but dark web is full of things you never even knew they exist.

We should face the reality, war on drugs was lost long time ago. Now is a time to move on and try something else. Perhaps supervised distribution to chronic addicts, it may cut down the crime associated? Don't know if that will work but it cant be worse that what we do have here now.

Since we cant even get drugs out of the prisons decriminalization is certainly something we should be looking at. There simply is no need to waste resources hauling Mary and Josh to court for having a bag or two on them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122529922#Comment_122529922

When I was talking about dealers, I was thinking more in the line of trusted connections for safety, but yeah - I'd well believe you with regards to sources finding the punter.

The war on drugs didn't fail - prohibition failed; but prohibition never works anyway. As for trying something else, well - it depends on what you see as the goal.

Bear in mind, the whole purpose of the "war on drugs" was to criminalise black people and hippies because they were the main opposition to Nixon politically.

“You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities,” Ehrlichman said. “We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

(John Erlichman - Nixon aide)

EDIT - add quote

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523961#Comment_122523961

Really not sure why you linked to data on cannabis use in the Netherlands 🤔

No it's happening, it's not just an unfounded fear, maybe you don't see it or experience it around you in which case you're lucky, but where I am, like the OP said, cocaine is very much destroying rural Ireland.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530375#Comment_122530375

That was example to illustrate that not everyone will run towards it if it become say supervised or somehow regulated or controlled. Current policy is not an answer as you can see yourself. It is not just cocaine which is destroying communities, it is pretty much everything out there. I remember when there was the same talk about alcohol, smoking, heroin, benzos, fentanyl, cannabis…

Cocaine is the topic today but there will be something new tomorrow or soon and you can be sure about it.

We are not identifying what make people to do things like that, we are not going after the cause but trying to deal with effect. That is not going to work.

drury..

I don't have links handy but my understanding is greater availability means greater usage

Anyway people mistakenly believe the black market disappears but that's not the case at all. They simply undercut the legal market which includes taxes etc on the price

This is the current situation in the US with marijuana sales .There's the legal supply and the black market continues.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122533683#Comment_122533683

Cannabis is a bit of a non-starter for this argument, because people can just buy a few plants and grow their own. Not really an option with cocaine.

The other argument isn't anything to do with increasing usage - it's that the increased usage is safer. Now whether that's true or not depends on the individual.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122523916#Comment_122523916

Thanks, but I had already addressed that in the first half of my post if you read it…

You can be personally responsible (ie, well behaved, looking after your own health) but still miss social responsibility in terms of how is it supplied. The Bananahammock responded it that they didn't mean all the time, just a few times a year, so that excuses it in their eyes.

Your response is mentioning alcohol as a carcinogen… which is still personal responsibility. Beer, wine, whiskey whatever is all legally produced, taxed etc. Cocaine/Heroin is not. It's produced by slash and burn "agriculture", deforestation, smuggling, drug cartels and violence. That's the social responsibility.

Tomaldo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122533683#Comment_122533683

Greater availability of contraception and abortion probably resulted in higher usage of both, but change happened. As I said black markets exist in other everyday legal items, sportwear, designer brand clothes, Rolex watches, Ray Ban sunglasses, cigarettes, even viagra and sleeping pills. That doesn't mean we should ban the legally sold genuine products. A google search will tell you how many millions are raised in places where marijuana is legal. That means less than a hundred per cent of the market is controlled by criminals, surely that's better than here where they have total (100%) control.

Tomaldo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534311#Comment_122534311

If you've a problem with social responsibility, cartels and how cocaine is supplied, why don't you support a change of law, instead of judging users on their so-called lack of morality? In our recent past, powerful people and their supporters judged others adversely on their personal habits, usually of a sexual nature. History has been unkind to those moralists.

Quitelife

https://www.thejournal.ie/major-cocaine-and-drugs-haul-as-europol-assist-gardai-against-new-irish-crime-cartel-6489882-Sep2024/

Good to see

Quitelife

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/crime-and-courts/1621379/lengthy-prison-sentence-for-getaway-driver-following-attempted-murder-in-clare-town.html

Dublin gets lots of coverage for its crime mostly drug related but rural ireland is getting as bad as cocaine tears communities and family’s apart , here’s a good example of the impact of cocaine - Co Clare in this case , well done to the guards on getting these scumbags off the street for a while but many parts of rural ireland have no garda presence allowing Irish gangs control areas

Jim_Hodge

Safe is a very wide and relative term. Overall, I'd say rural areas are safer.

Lemsiper

I'd say it's safe, perhaps not really safe.

Ash.J.Williams

You read about crime but how often have you experienced it?

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682207#Comment_122682207

it’s in every community in rural ireland these days as drug dealers exert their control on the community, speeding up and down towns 24/7 collecting drug debts , collecting drug stash’s , slashing /beating up those in debt , luring young people into a life of addiction , intimidating old people going about their business .

County Limerick lost practically all its garda stations and the county is now controlled by traveller drug gangs . Government local TDs Patrick O Donovan & Niall Collins stand idly by .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682428#Comment_122682428

I live in rural Ireland and everything you just said sound like bollox. I feel absolutely safe and see almost no crime happening around me. Meanwhile I have no desire to walk the streets of Dublin waiting for some brain dead thug to beat me up.

Get over yourself.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682428#Comment_122682428

That's a load of Bull. Maybe our ideas of what is rural differ but you paint a picture completely alien to my experience in a rural community.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682428#Comment_122682428

If you don't indulge in drugs, you will have zero interactions with those you talk about.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682428#Comment_122682428

You already have a thread called "Cocaine Destroying Rural Ireland", would you not keep your crusade there?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682428#Comment_122682428

You are talking about one part of west county Limerick.

There are no traveller gangs running Adare, Croom, Oola or the vast majority of other towns and villages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682439#Comment_122682439

Equally I walk around Limerick city every day and make regular trips to Cork and Dublin and the likelihood of some "brain dead thug" beating me up feels very remote. I know it has happened in Dublin to people but the hyperbole has gone into overdrive. I'm sick of all the country people I work with calling Limerick "dangerous" because they got tapped for change or saw a homeless person in the distance.

ancapailldorcha

I grew up in rural Ireland and always felt like crime was something that just happened in other places. It was boring of course but also comfortable and very safe. That said, it's a miracle that I never got hit by a car as some of the roads are absolutely death traps with the behaviour of some drivers.

Ash.J.Williams

If you run up a debt you will be dealt with, regardless if it's a bank or a scrote

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682846#Comment_122682846

A bank wont beat you or your siblings up or hold a knife to your mothers throat ….

yagan

When you say rural I assumed one off houses outside towns, but then you cited towns.

There is a difference. Rural can be more dangerous for people in terms of loneliness and general isolation, but statistically it's very safe.