Alternative to pepper spray for woman personal safety

hnum0

My girlfriend had to move due to rent increases and now her apartment is in a somewhat more dodgy street in East wall. I'm abroad, so can't be of much help but she expressed to me also that it's not great at night. It's not terrible most of the time, but unfortunately she works nights and sometimes has to walk 1-2 blocks from the bus to her place at night. If it were legal, I'd want her to carry some pepper spray, hence my question: is there an alternative deterrent to pepper spray which is legal in Ireland?

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058367056/alternative-to-pepper-spray-for-woman-personal-safety

Thread will closed shortly , I'd imagine but a small can of deep heat .

We're in after hours so you could try it on yourself first for effect.

zell12

vinegar in spray form

Del2005

Anything you use becomes a weapon so all she needs to do is carry something which is normal for people to carry. Hairspray would be something a lot of people carry.

The thing is that the vast majority of the times a person who pulls out a weapon when being attacked usually is injured by their weapon.

BrianD3

Can't think of anything that would be both legal and effective as an improvised weapon. Even if she had a good reason to carry a sharp implement, it would likely be taken off her and she'd also need to be very close to the attacker to use it.

A very bright torch with strobe and a good pair of running shoes might be her best bet. Although from what I've read, strobe torches disorient the attacked as well as the attacker.

Ezeoul

Small can of hairspray.

Pauliedragon

Maybe deodorant. Got that in my eye once it was agony. Anything like that tho would only work for a few seconds.

I'm sure you can get them cheaper elsewhere but one of these might help her feel safer. I always carried my keys in my hand with a particular keyring worn on the outside of my knuckles.

https://ultrasecure.ie/personal-alarms-c65

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058367056/alternative-to-pepper-spray-for-woman-personal-safety

If she works nights then how is she walking around East Wall at night? Surely she'd be going home in the morning after work?

Eoinbmw

A hammer!

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566590#Comment_122566590

Probably a restaurant or a pub.

freshpopcorn

Vouchers for McDonalds normally do thr trick.

cajonlardo

A tightly rolled magazine is an effective weapon if used in a jabbing motion. Hold It in your fist at the mid point of the magazine.

It is surprisingly hard at either end and if you got a blow to a vulnerable spot such as throat, temple eye or nose it will put you down . Pretty much anything you use is only effective if you practice. Roll up a magazine and jab the palm of your hand with the end and you will see what I mean

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566596#Comment_122566596

She'd be entitled to a taxi home.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566697#Comment_122566697

Not true

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566534#Comment_122566534

A big carabiner. I carry one on my bag, use it a lot for camping and hanging my bag from a tree.

Can have many other inventive uses too.

taxAHcruel

She likely would not be harmed by taking a Jiu Jitsu class. It's fun, healthy and enriching in many ways, even if you never have to use it in your life.

But for women it tends to also have the added advantage that many of the things you learn - tend to be in positions exactly or very similar to where a male attacker might put a female victim if for example they had a sexual intent.

Unfortunately, stuff can happen even in relatively nice areas. Some years ago, one of my own girlfriends was attacked by a guy with sexual intent late one night. He ran at her and shouldered her over to the ground. Tried to get on top of her and then place himself between her legs. A position that probably made him feel he was making progress and about to get whatever it was he wanted.

Unfortunately (for him) this position is one of the primary positions in Jiu Jitsu and she had her breath back after the initial shock and winding. What happened to him next and how the entire encounter ended for him probably still haunts him today. Mentally and physically, as healing from some of those injuries is not always easy. One's arm really isn't meant to go that far up one's back. Let alone that suddenly and that quickly. Being then blood choked unconscious was probably a mercy of pain relief.

All that said though, the best comment on the thread so far is a good pair of running shoes and a personal alarm that will surprise an assailant and make them think twice about the wisdom of pursuit. The best outcome in any fight is not to fight at all. And no matter how good you think your training is - getting the hell out of there at speed is always the best outcome.

Feisar

Carrying something to be used as a weapon is illegal. Personally I'd go with a variation on the lock in a sock. A bank change bag wedged full of 1 cents in a tiny handbag. It'll need fairly robust straps and she'd need to experiment with what length would work best but basically it's a weapon that can be used to beat someone to death. Regardless of the tool used it's all about the three F's. First, Fast and Furious. Prior to all that though situational awareness is key. If I'm jumped I consider I've fecked up already.
Anyway we're doing really well when it comes to violence against women, as a category they are way less likely to be attacked compared with men. When it comes to rape it's more than likely someone she knows. if she does get jumped for her wallet, make sure she has a spare one with a twenty in it and some old cards to give away.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566697#Comment_122566697

Who pays for the taxi for her? I've worked for years in hospitality and never had my taxi paid. Hotels will give a voucher towards a taxi but only if you finish really late as in 2am or later.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058367056/alternative-to-pepper-spray-for-woman-personal-safety

Sign her up for a KravaMaga self defence course or get her working in a business that provides a taxi home for staff.Comments here about cans of this that and the other.She will not have time to remove said items from pocket or handbag/shoulderbag and carrying them openly will make her a target.A self defence course will teach her how to recognise danger,how to defuse a situation,how to get away from a confrontation and finally how to respond when unable to escape.

There is no entitlement to a taxi home unless the employer agrees to it at beginning of employment or is subsequently negotiated.Unionised employments would normally have the facility.

scwazrh

https://ultrasecure.ie/all-wireless-panic-alarms/personal-alarms/self-defence-spray-012-0990-p1907.html

A legal alternative to pepper spray

Oscar_Madison

I’ll “mind” her OP😜 just PM address

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122567236#Comment_122567236

Maybe she doesn't want to change employer or a course in Jrav Maga might not suit her , not everyone is athletic or sporty , she may have an underlying condition stopping her active sports , the suggestion of a can of something for her to spray is just as useful as your suggestions.

JVince

A very loud personal alarm is the ideal item. Ideally one that flashes red at the same time.

There are still some unfavorable people in East Wall, but most have moved away over the years.

Strumms

only thing that would be legal and safe would be the spray, but outside to use a deodorant type spray into a persons face, you’d need to be quite close as the air outside plus the limited distance the spray would be expelled from the canister is pretty limited.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122567834#Comment_122567834

With the OP being abroad, she is probably being well "minded" already.

Here's a thought for a self defence weapon using materials she already has plenty of. If caught with it, just make up some story about having a weird fetish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_RWRKU93o

whisky_galore

It's ridiculous pepper spray is illegal here. Backward country.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568447#Comment_122568447

Its not.

The consideration being, that if women (mainly) would wish to use it for self-defence, and if it were readily available, potential attackers would much more easily have it too, to blind and disable the woman in the first place.

The law of unintended consequences pal. The best thing for everyone is to remove as many weapons as possible from society.

Give the young lady a referees whistle or electronic rape alarm. The noise off them would chase off all but the most psychopathic would-be assailants.

carry the keys in her hand with bit of the key they goes into the lock sticking out between her fingers, if she feels someone is following her kick a car to set the alarm off.

To be honest, if someone jumped on her she might not get the chance to do anything.

Strumms

if pepper spray was legal, unfortunately bad cûnts meaning other’s harm would be allowed to have it. Might be intended for self defence only but you cannot ensure once it’s sold that self defence will be the sole use of it.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122567988#Comment_122567988

It was a very good advice. It is just for not athletic people. I took one and I am very happy I did. It made me feel confident at night and this alone might discourage baddies. Also you can scare them away with other techniques before any real attack starts. Baddies don't want troubles and choose easy targets. If you show that it might be more difficult for them, they might resign.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568447#Comment_122568447

You think every scrote and scumbag should be allowed legal access to pepper spray? Women need to be able to protect themselves but if you legalise it then everyone will be allowed to buy it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568504#Comment_122568504

Fair enough. Maybe dial down the snark "pal".

kravmaga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058367056/alternative-to-pepper-spray-for-woman-personal-safety

An AR-15 should suffice for East Wall, :-)

Mannesmann

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568133#Comment_122568133

Good idea. Anything that you need to fumble about in your handbag to get out will be too late. A loud alarm with a light that is triggered by someone taking a bag or anything in your hand is ideal. Thy can work on a small cord that when pulled goes off with a piercing wail.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566664#Comment_122566664

Is that you Jake Stevens?

baxterooneydoody

Some of the replies are gas, ju jitsu ffs, she'd be better off offering him a blow job or her wallet for all the good ju jitsu or krav maga would be, hairspray that wouldn't spray the length of the attackers mickey, he'd have to be 6 inches from her for it to work and would more than likely just piss him off.

The rolled up magazine has to be a piss take unless she has the skills of jason Bourne or its a playboy she could distract her assailant with while she makes a quick getaway

A high quality rape alarm, don't keep her valuables in a bag, instead tell her wear a jacket with pockets for cash, cards, keys etc and have a cheap bag for makeup or whatever cheap stuff she needs with her, let them have the bag and lastly a good pair of runners to run like fcuk after losing the bag

Donald Trump

She could get a new boyfriend

hnum0

Thanks for all the tips, I've found a good 140db alarm that has an easy "pull" mechanism that seems like the most sensible recommendation for now. And just to be sure, I've indeed arranged her a second boyfriend, one of the several charming lads who offered here on boards.ie, who have promised me they will keep her safe.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568504#Comment_122568504

I've heard this logic before but I'm not sure if I buy it.

Pepper spray is legal in some form or another in a lot of EU countries already.

Some under license, so it's not straightforward to get.

I remember years back when we were working on having Airsoft legalised here, the worry was that you'd have legions of scrotes running around robbing and abusing people with them. It never happened.

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/qeu2gf/where_can_you_own_and_use_a_pepper_spray_for/#lightbox

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122569902#Comment_122569902

I came on to say exactly that. Also, in Germany as far as the licence for pepper spray goes, the following criteria are applied:
- no previous convictions other than a maximum of a prison sentence, a youth sentence or a fine of less than 60 daily rates, if five years have not yet elapsed since the last conviction became final.
- safe storage of the weapon(s)
- Minimum age 18 years
- no drug addiction (including alcohol addiction )
- physical and mental fitness

The permit above entitles the permit holder to purchase and carry(as in concealed to use in self defence) pepper spray, blank firing guns(which can also fire pepper spray).

There has never been an instance of people running amok with such items after their legalisation, yet it is the argument trotted out for every loosening of such laws. See articles from every state in the US which has passed constitutional carry (carrying a firearm without an explicit permit). "Blood in the streets", yet it has never materialised.

There would be nothing stopping the state here from implementing something similar for people, and contrary to the opinions here pepper spray and other self defence items commonly available and used in other EU countries are very rarely used by assailants. In fact there is no law that would need to change, simply Garda policy change to start issuing firearms licences for pepper spray for self defence(pepper spray being classed as a firearm here).
Indeed the most recent polls show huge public support for such a change in pepper spray legality:
https://www.thejournal.ie/pepper-spray-poll-3898516-Mar2018/ - 71.6%(11597) in favour of legalisation.
An earlier poll similarly had a similar majority in favour of legalisation - 88.4%(11822).

https://www.thejournal.ie/pepper-spray-laws-1960351-Mar2015/

In most countries it is an accepted practice that some people(women, the infirm, the elderly, the slight of frame, etc) are at a significant disadvantage in a physical confrontation, and so pepper spray, expandable batons, etc are accepted and even encouraged to be carried to defend such people.

Of course carrying anything to be used as a weapon in Ireland is an offence, and An Garda Siochana will not issue any licences for normal people to carry self defence tools.

I say normal people here because there are instances of firearms licences being granted to foreign security personnel:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gun-licences-given-to-260-foreign-security-staff-in-last-two-years-1.3862828
And you can be certain that those firearms licences granted are not solely for the use of pepper spray.

But of course those are granted for "certain persons such as visiting dignitaries and others, when travelling to this State", so only those whose lives are more important and deserving of protection than someone's daughter, wife, girlfriend, etc who is walking home late at night.
Or even out for a run during the day.

cajonlardo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122569163#Comment_122569163

Have you tried a rolled up magazine before you discount it?

Jabbing with the end of a tightly wound magazine will break bones, destroy eye socket, absolutely destroy a nose , knock out teeth etc. a jab to the throat is guaranteed to put anyone out.

( Btw have you heard of a " Millwall brick" ? )

Look at it this may. If an average person punched an attacker the effect is probably not too damaging. The tightly rolled magazine greatly increases the impact effect for the same energy .

https://youtu.be/kEef04tgM0c?si=veq46KV_FeNraOaq

otmmyboy2

There is also some decent research in the area of self defence, one of which is "On Her Own", who did an interesting writeup of women's self defence classes:
https://www.facebook.com/onherownlife/posts/pfbid0TjDfuTGL3VeEMfqvyrh8FtbCKF6MLo8JAgMzWmPTe7vwbQH3i4crc1u7jy43vPBwl

And also has done several videos on self defence practices and tools with a view towards women:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Vy9jCQPWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me60gWzbMXw

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122569902#Comment_122569902

Pellet guns have become the new fashionable item for kids round my way this summer. I never thought I'de say it but I miss when it was the quad bikes. Pets being shot, a bus driver famously shot in the face.

I'm not against it being legal for lads to play Airsoft but those guns have become a huge pain in my hole the last few months.

BrianD3

If pepper spray was legalised here, it is highly unlikely that scum would use it for attacking people. If they wanted to, they could easily make it themselves. They don't - and why would they when they can carry far more dangerous and intimidating improvised weapons like knives and screwdrivers.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122570035#Comment_122570035

In a controlled setting in daylight without the element of surprise I can see it being useful, on a dark street with an aggressive attacker against a average sized female it might come more of a surprise to him than a deterrent

Grizzly 45

FWIW after working in various countries inc Ireland as a bodygaurd and private investigator for 25 years can I add my 2 cents?

Hug her tightly and Pray that she survives .Because in reality with our stupid self defence and firearms laws in our little county is your only real option?If you don't want to be proactive on this situation

ANY item that projects a noxious liquid ,gas or other.Be it pepperspray ,or hairspray carried as a method of self defence is classified as a prohibited weapon under the 1925 firearms act.That means you carry a can of oven cleaner as a self defence can and AGS stops you on your way home for whatever reason and discover this ,you might as well have been carrying a 357magnum or a 12 inch blade or a pair of barbers sissors You will be done for possession of an offensive weapon in suspicious circumstances.

Pepper spray is also not a magic wand that puts the bad guy on the ground straight away either.You can trained to fight thru it.Anyone who has done military training in NBC and been in the gas chamber will know what I am on about reciting the alphabet minus your respirator. Also it can have little or no effect on someone on drugs.See George Floyd and Rodney King on this .

Also,there is a distinct movement by the 'wimnins groups"in Ireland to discourage women from demanding the change in these laws too for what ever reason.Hey maybe it's morally superior in Ireland to be raped and srangled with your own panties than to carry a can of pepperspray or a 9mm .

Also while good for self confidence and after instructing some here,irish women are really lacking in self confidence and street smarts, I don't care what sort of krav maga,judo or ninja training you do.A woman is no match for a man who outweighs and is physically stronger than her,might be on drugsmight be out with his fellow scumbags for some3on1 action with you as the spit roast A punch in the nose will stop Chuck Norris as much as Jane Doe Ninja trained girl.m .You will tear up and be stunned for four seconds,it is a natural humanreaction,and that's enough time for you to be killed or further incapacitated by your attacker.

Also a lot of these courses do not teach and it's vital is on the ground grappling and fighting,who says you are going to be on your feet fighting all the time?

The best fight is the one you avoided.So that means she learns also the signs and the potential trouble spots on her route home and where the wolves might be.No point in walking the same route with the head down arms folded looking at her feet with the hand bag hanging off the strap.It signals "Victim" to all the peadators .

Now for a legal deterance.Get a high power 500k plus candlepower flash light with a strobe effect.Somthing like Maglite or similar that has a aluminium body so it can double as a baton.Learn some moves with this,there are plenty of YT vids on how to do such.

As we have rather rainy weather in Ireland.A full length quality umbrella,with a sharpened tip makes an excellent improvised pole arm.Get someone who has done army training and remembers their bayonet practise.It actually very simple and about six moves,that you practise over and over till it becomes reflex.She will be a formidable foe with that skill and some verysharp street awareness.

Now,of course and this is utterly hypothetical and you would never,ever ,ever do this of course being a good loyal law-abiding irish citizen,esp after I told you what the law is on this here in Ireland.But some bad people have gotten hold of a disposable nasal sprayer like a Vicks bottle,emptied and filled it with somthing nasty like say ammonia or formaldehyde tipped it off with some wax to prevent it leaking and kept that on their person in dangerous situations and sprayed their attackers faces and then simply wiped it down,and disposed of it responsibly in the next litter bin after running like Hell away.

The most important thing is develop street sense and be able to switch on to high alert the moment she leaves her job to inside her door.Complacency has killed more people including members of aGS.Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it won't ever happen to you on the last day of your career.

Stay alert avoid the problem first off as best you can and the weaponary becomes secondary.There is a saying in the bodyguard world."If you have to draw your weapon to protect your client.Your planning and observation went to sht a long time before."

Watch your six and stay safe

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122568504#Comment_122568504

Cain killed his brother Abel with a rock!Are you going to ban rocks?Do we cut off our hands and feet too?Those are the most common weapons used in violent crime globally.Anything can be a weapon in someone's hands if they know how to use it.

Dial Hard

This thread is insane. The reality is that any woman you know is statistically far, far, far more likely to be sexually assaulted by someone she knows than the proverbial stranger in the street that you all seem so worried about.

And I can't even summon up the will to respond specifically to the most recent post. Mother of fcuking god.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122570396#Comment_122570396

If you can get close enough to spray someone's face you are probably close enough to just bury your keys into his eye.

I could be wrong but I was always told that the problem with pepper spray is it's only to make you "feel safe" and the reality is using it is as likely to end up blinding yourself. Happy to be corrected if that's balls.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122570415#Comment_122570415

I suppose pressing a button on a spray can is going to be a lot easier for a meek person to do than something as visceral as 'burying a key in someone's eye'