Prop Idol 24/25

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Looseheads

Senior
Cian Healy(36/Belvedere/Leinster)
Dave Kilcoyne(35/Ardscoil Ris/Munster)
Denis Buckley(34/Blackrock/Connacht)
Andrew Warwick(33/Ballymena/Ulster)
Peter Dooley(30/Birr RFC/Connacht)
Jeremy Loughman(29/Blackrock/Munster)
Andrew Porter(28/St. Andrews/Leinster)
Eric O'Sullivan(28/Templeogue/Ulster)
Jordan Duggan(26/Newbridge/Connacht)
Callum Reid(25/RBAI/Ulster)
Michael Milne(25/Birr RFC-Roscrea/Leinster)
Josh Wycherley(25/Bantry Bay RFC-Roscrea/Munster)
Temi Lasisi(23/Enniscorthy RFC/Connacht)
Mark Donnelly(22/CBC/Munster)
Jack Boyle(22/St. Michaels/Leinster)
Paddy McCarthy(21/Blackrock/Leinster)

Academy
Kieran Ryan(22/St. Munchins/Munster)
George Hadden(21/Gorey RFC/Munster)
Jack Boal(21/Campbell/Ulster)
Jacob Boyd(20/RBAI/Ulster)
Alex Usanov(19/Belvedere/Leinster)

Tightheads

Senior
Stephen Archer(36/CBC/Munster)
John Ryan(35/CBC/Munster)
Marty Moore(33/Castleknock/Ulster)
Finlay Bealham(32/OZ/Connacht)
Tadhg Furlong(31/New Ross RFC/Leinster)
Oli Jager(28/Blackrock/Munster)
Roman Salanoa(26/Hawaii/Munster)
Tom O'Toole(25/Campbell/Ulster)
Jack Aungier(25/Suttonians/Connacht)
Tom Clarkson(24/Blackrock/Leinster)
Sam Illo(23/Wesley/Connacht)
Scott Wilson(21/Wallace/Ulster)

Academy
Rory McGuire(22/Blackrock/Leinster)
Darragh McSweeney(21/PBC/Munster)
Ronan Foxe(21/Tullamore RFC/Munster)
Fiachna Barrett(21/Ballina RFC/Connacht)
Cameron Doak(20/Wallace/Ulster)
Andrew Sparrow(19/St. Marys/Leinster)
Niall Smyth(19/Blackrock/Leinster)

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Who will replace Furlong and Porter?

Who will replace Healy and Bealham?

Dubinusa

Bealham is in situation where he's been poor recently and is getting older. I can see him losing his place at Connacht soon.

Healy is only signed for a year. So he's just about finished. I have no clue who replaced him. My bet would be Loughman.

Podge_irl

God that loosehead list is depressing.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367451#Comment_122367451

Loughman seems on the outside though, having strangely enough missed this tour.

I absolutely love Cian Healy as a player, he's an all time great, but I see zero rationale for having him on the bench anymore.

If you look at how deep Porter is playing into games, it kind of screams they no longer have much faith in Healy. If that's the case, it might as well be a younger player getting those minutes than him, since it appears as though we're goosed either way if Porter goes down.

Big hope for Leinster and Ireland's succession plan here is Jack Boyle coming through next season.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367477#Comment_122367477

It's worrying that Porter is playing so much. Most of his games are against good opposition too.

Loughman for me can give 25 minutes from the bench. He's very underrated.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367508#Comment_122367508

I think he's a solid prop too, but he doesn't answer the question @Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3 posed above around succeeding Porter, seeing as he is around 6 months older than Porter.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Biggest issue for Leinster is he poor prop coaching provided by McBryde a former hooker, along with Aaron Dundon another former hooker. Surely a prop needs to be coaching these young lads?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367646#Comment_122367646

Not Necessarily. A former hooker should be able to coach and k ow what's needed as much as any prop. Plenty other sides have had former hookers as there scrum coach before. We had john fogarty as scrum coach for various teams before. Clermont amd few other french clubs have used former hookers as their scrum coaches before I think.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367683#Comment_122367683

well the leinster scrum has not improved under their coaching so I'd say there is an issue there alright.

not to mention their development of props, so yeah its an issue.

arsebiscuits1

With Humphries stating no NIQ props going forward we need to start actively ID'ing and developing talent sooner.

I posted over on LF that we should look at scrapping the 1.5m scrum for Schools cup. A poster did make a good point that this will probably negatively effect the overall schools game and it's hard to disagree that this will skew a lot of games.

But I do see merit in having it at U18s for Interpros.

I do think Ireland is ahead of the game in terms of how World Rugby is viewing the scrum. They obviously want both less scrums and the ones that exist to have less of an impact. As such mobile props are coming into the fore.

But teams still can and will use it as a weapon. 10 years from now the outlook of scrums in Union might look very very different. But until then we need some heavies coming down who can act as a scrummager first and an athlete second.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367996#Comment_122367996

You really think scrapping the 1.5m rule would lead to the development of better props? Getting shunted back 1.5m is quite a long way. If a scrum has succeeded in getting 1.5m of go-forward, continuing the shove is going to be easier than starting going forward in the first place. Being allowed to keep moving forward isn't going to make the props in the dominant scrum better in the long run.

You think teams are picking props not really based on their scrummaging ability because they think they can get away with getting driven back 1.5m?

Edit: Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose it depends on individual coaches/selectors. Maybe someone thinks giving up 1.5m in 5-10 scrums is worth it to get an extra three backrowers on the field instead of frontrowers. Although it's still useful to have heavy prop-like players to put in heavy tackles and for mauling.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367996#Comment_122367996

Scrapping 1.5m law for under 19s and schools isn't going to happen and isn't a reason why we don't produce props. It exists at under 19 and below globally. It hasn't affected south africa or anyone else produce props.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368099#Comment_122368099

I think there is merit to it yes. I don't think it will solve all the problems no. We need better talent ID younger and a more consistent high performance presence focusing on the scrum.

In 1.5m push it's hard to have the ball turned over on your feed. You can be coached to just absorb the hit and wait for the ref to tell the other team to push. This is how a huge amount of props would be coached underage. It's similar at junior rugby where I've played for years (and had to cover prop on a handful of occasions) absorb the hit as best you can. Main goal is to get the ball out. Don't keep it in the scrum. Don't fight. Just survive. For the same reason opposition props aren't taught to attack a scrum as effectively either.

If you know you're up against a scrum that's going to potentially pulverise you, you learn to fight, you learn to cope, you learn the tricks of the trade to get the better of any opposition any way you can.

If you fancy yourself as being dominant, you don't approach a scrum as something the ball gets in and out of. You lay down a marker on your opposition. You make them dread the next time they come against you. If you know you're only going to get 1.5m on them, you just don't have that mindset.

Having this mindset already drilled into you by the time you're in the shop window for a provincial academy and senior rugby is going to be beneficial

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368104#Comment_122368104

It's not a comprehensive solution. But I think there's absolutely merit in it.

We probably need dedicated National EPDOs for scrummaging. A lot of the senior and underage scrum coaches on this Isle are double jobbing.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368234#Comment_122368234

There isn't much merit in it and won't produce better props. And it's there for very good reasons.

YoYou can talent id earlier. get props more high level technical coaching earlier be that with provincial staff or AIL coaches or guys like seamus party, from nenagh. Who's worked with dozens of top props over the years.

You work on coaching the coaches etc and not changing the laws.

If you are very good technically 1 5 metres is more than enough space to attack your opponent and dominate them and win the space for your team to get a good advantage.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368263#Comment_122368263

If you are very good technically 1 5 metres is more than enough space to attack your opponent and dominate them and win the space for your team to get a good advantage.

It can be indeed. But not enough I feel. I covered it in my post above to Richie.

When you're limited to how much you can do something you're limiting your mindset.

I've packed down behind (and opposite) some extremely good props. Some ex senior, some ex AIL, ex provincial underage, some who started in the amateur era and kept going and some seasoned J1 players and gotten to chat a lot of scrum talk over the years. I'm not going to pretend I'm a front row expert but the consensus among those I've spoken to is when it's only 1.5m why bother attacking the oppo? Lock out the scrum or get a nudge on and save your energy for other scenarios.

I've been in scrums where the 1.5m is in place. And I've been in some where it is not. The mindset is different. The attitude is different.

I'm very aware that my level of rugby is not comparable to those who are elite pro prospects. But the mindset is not that different

theVersatile

I think part of the issue is that because of the 1.5m rule, coaches don't pay a whole head of attention to the scrum. They do the bear minimum to coach safe technique and body position and then it's just about lying in. There's a reason it's frequently commented that scrums at underage level is "a rest". Maybe the schools treat things differently but that's my experience at club level anyways.

I agree with OL that the answer to this is better coaching around the scrum from a younger age - promoting an attacking mindset at scrum time rather than using it as a rest. I'd also agree with AB that removing the 1.5m push in certain contexts (for example, U18/19 Interpros) would enable the best front row prospects in getting this kind of training and being more exposed to what "real" scrummaging is like from an earlier age.

It's an interesting one.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368306#Comment_122368306

But It isn't an issue and isn't in place anywhere else in the world. Everywhere operates the same laws in the scrum at under 19 and below and they can produce more props elsewhere so the laws are not the problem. It's the coaching, actual games. That are the issues. Improve the coaching. Then the players improve

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367996#Comment_122367996

IRFU pulling up the drawbridge once Leinster have got their man in. You wouldn't need to be too paranoid in other provinces to get a complex would you

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368363#Comment_122368363

So why not do things differently and see if it gives us an advantage? It's all well and good to say that everyone else does something one way so we should do. High performance you're looking at where you can find the extra percent. Why not try new things?

But I have been consistent in my messaging and it's where we agree. Player pathway and development needs to be improved or likely overhauled if Humphreys wants only IQ props going forward.

But it's only part of the solution

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368426#Comment_122368426

No, you're definitely right, paranoia is 100% not lacking amongst certain sets of fans.

Ulster had a Springbok at LHP last season, they're more stretched than most, but have some young props worth developing.

Connacht have a good stock of props for the most part - with three good options at THP in Bealham, Aungier and Illo.

Munster had an international quality THP signed less than 12 months ago, and while the age profile is bad amongst some of their THPs, if Salanoa recovers okay then they have two good options. They have 4 senior contracted LHPs.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368454#Comment_122368454

We are not going to be allowed change the laws at under 19 and below. And if we have issues with the 1 5metre limit in place removing it will not produce better props.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368484#Comment_122368484

Allowed to change the rule? Unlikely.

Changing the 1.5m rule wont produce better props? I don't agree. And I feel I've given more than fair justification behind it.

So it's probably best to leave it there and agree to disagree

But a final question for you. Do you think eradicating the 1.5m rule will produce worse props?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368568#Comment_122368568

Changing the 1.5 law won't make better props so no need to change. You can't limit changes to regs around scrum law to any particular competitions so there would need to be changes at all under 19 competitions and we are not ready and never will be for that.

A metre and a half is more than enough space to challenge players and get an advantage for your team. A very dominant player isn't going to learn anything more beyond pushing past the metre and a half and at age grade you don't need to push more as even at the top levels in age grade rugby be it between top youths teams or in schools you can have serious mismatches between front rows and it becomes a risk issue and we are by and large talking about minors ao it's a no no. You want to keep people in the sport and changing this doesn't help that.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368654#Comment_122368654

All fair and reasonable points. But you didn't answer my question.

Do you think removing the 1.5m rule will produce worse props?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368673#Comment_122368673

Yes and it will hurt players and bring more risk to an area you simply don't need it as it has more than enough already.

An andrew porter back when he was playing schools or tadhg furlong, or even guys on edge of Irish 20s who never went near people being able to go full throttle on their opposition isn't the solution to why we don't produce props. I

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367683#Comment_122367683

Id take that argument if it didn't look like a hooker was coaching them. Easiest position in the scrum by Far IMO.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368901#Comment_122368901

Easiest In scrum based on what exactly?

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Your need to defend bad coaching never ends.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368941#Comment_122368941

Go on expand?

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368905#Comment_122368905

My experience playing there VS prop.

Podge_irl

I do find it a bit frustrating that we lost Ed Byrne, who to my mind would have been a pretty decent interim replacement for Healy while we wait for the younger lads to comes good.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369339#Comment_122369339

I’m just baffled Ulster or Munster didn’t sign him - it seems extremely unlikely they could have been outbid by Cardiff for him, and I think he is 100% good enough to be in the first choice 23 for both.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367996#Comment_122367996

I'd like to agree with you about coaching and school cup scrums but I'd be wary of changing the 1.5m rule. There can be huge differences in size at underage that I'd be concerned about the damage (injury wise) that could occur if you moved away from the 1.5m.

I do agree that the current coaching isn't developing scrummagers though so that might be worth the IRFU investigating to see what can be improved.

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369525#Comment_122369525

They do the 1.5m rule everywhere, it's a world rugby directive. We either A. Don't choose the Props based scrummaging B. We don't have props who can scrummage C. Aren't coaching the Props properly at scrum time to develop them. I'd bet on a mixture of A and C being our problem at developing props.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368426#Comment_122368426

19 forwards away on tour with Ireland right now.

How many of those forwards were produced in the academy's of Ulster, Munster or Connacht?? Have a guess??

Two, is the answer. One guy is 35 and the other is an Offaly man

Whatever the problem is, Leinster are absolutely not it.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369648#Comment_122369648

I'm aware of it being an international rule, also I'm not in favour of changing it.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

interesting to see former connacht academy prop Oisin Michel is playing club rugby in Sydney as is u20 player Finian Murray.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Odd that Irish u20s relying so heavily on a prop(Bell) who has signed a senior deal for an english club.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369821#Comment_122369821

No need to get so defensive, jeez. You would swear I said Leinster were sh*te. Point is the most well resourced and succesful province should not benefit from additional advantages not afforded other provinces. They should never have been permitted to sign Slimani, or Snyman for that matter

But you forgot Cian Prendergast and Dave Heffernan who both came through the Connacht academy. "But but but Cian is from Leinster" - he came through the Connacht Academy, so if Leinster can claim him, Connacht can claim Doris.

But fair dues Lenister being able to produce the most players with by far the biggest population and most of the best resourced schools. Fair dues

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370523#Comment_122370523

Doris was never involved with Connacht rugby, Cian Prendergast was in the leinster sub-academy and trained with leinster at u17, u18, u19 and u20. They arent the same.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Last 3 seasons under-20 props:

2024

Patreece Bell(Exile)

Alex Usanov(Belvedere) - u19

Andrew Sparrow(St. Marys)

Emmet Calvey(Ardscoil Ris) - u19

Ben Howard(St. Michaels)

Jacob Boyd(RBAI)

Alex Mullan(Blackrock) - u19

2023

Paddy McCarthy(Blackrock)

Ronan Foxe(Tullamore RFC)

Fiachna Barrett(Ballina RFC)

George Hadden(Gorey RFC)

George Morris(Gonzaga)

2022

Oisin Michel(Cill Dara RFC)

Rory McGuire(Blackrock)

Darragh McSweeney(PBC Cork)

Jack Boyle(St. Michaels)

Scott Wilson(Wallace)

11 Leinster props

2 Ulster props

2 Munster props

1 Connacht prop

1 Exile prop

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370523#Comment_122370523

But you forgot Cian Prendergast and Dave Heffernan who both came through the Connacht academy. "But but but Cian is from Leinster" - he came through the Connacht Academy, so if Leinster can claim him, Connacht can claim Doris.

It's mostly semantics from me here. I don't really have any skin in the argument here.

Doris and Heffernan both boarded in Blackrock for their entire secondary school education (actually I think Heff came in in second year)

One went through the Connacht academy. One through the Leinster one.

No one can "claim" anyone. But I think the stronger arguments would be for Doris being Leinster developed.

I also think it's fair to say Heffernan and Prendergast were developed by Connacht. But it's a much thinner argument for Doris. Especially in the Context of the other 2

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

u18/u19 intl props this season:

Loosehead

Alex Usanov(Belvedere/u19)

Billy Bohan(Newbridge/u19)

Emmet Calvey(Ardscoil Ris/u19)

Max Doyle(Clongowes/u18)

Joey Conway(Castletroy/u18)

Harry Goslin(Belvedere/u18)

Conan Gartland(Barnhall/u18)

Christopher Donlon(Dunmore/u18)

Tyrese Abolarin(Methody/u18)

Tighthead

Niall Smyth(Blackrock/u19)

Alex Mullan(Blackrock/u19)

Adam Watchorn(Kilkenny/u19)

Tom McAllister(Ballyclare/u19)

Blake McClean(RBAI/u18)

Cian Walsh(CBC/u18)

Rio McDonagh(Wallace/u18)

Josh Dobbin(Ballymena/u18)

Evan Shelley(Skerries/u18)

Sam Bishti(Blackrock/u18)

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370523#Comment_122370523

My comment was in response to your persecution complex and your claim of paranoia.

I was explaining to you why theres no need for you to be paranoid, so it wasnt not a defensive comment at all. Alls good.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Stark reminder of how far behind young Irish props are to English ones today.

Purist98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370487#Comment_122370487

Think something like this could be a good idea going forward, a lot of English academy players play abroad during summer, could be beneficial for Irish lads, in particular front rows and half backs who need time in the saddle

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370487#Comment_122370487

Was Michel confirmed to be released? A bit surprised if so, not like we produce many props and he seemed to have a bit about him.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

No longer listed on Connacht website as being in academy.

Paul Smeenus

Saunderson's a loss up here in Ulster - looked promising, retired on medical advice.