National Cycle Network (NCN) Road Space Re-Allocation Pilot (R448) Moone to Timolin

nilhg

I was going to post this in the meanwhile on the roads thread but I think since it's a national pilot and since in my opinion it's a complete dogs dinner which will make the road much more dangerous for the majority of the cyclists who currently use the road it probably is worth a thread of it's own.

KCC is holding a consultation on a pilot project to reengineer the old main road to Carlow near Timolin and Moone, this will narrow a wide road with wide hard shoulders and insert 1.5m wide cycle lanes, that might not be so bad in itself but it's the way they plan to interact the cycle lanes with local road junctions that's the big issue, cyclists will have to stop and dismount to cross the local roads when they currently would have priority on the main road.

Most of the cyclists using this road would be sport/racing folk often in club groups on weekend spins, most of those will just ignore the lanes and stay on the narrower mainline with the resulting frustration for drivers coming up behind them and the possibility of dangerous passing manoeuvres.

All the info is at the link, feel free to make a submission, if a pilot like this goes through it would be a bad start to any cycling infrastructure on the old main road network.

https://consult.kildarecoco.ie/en/consultation/national-cycle-network-ncn-road-space-re-allocation-pilot-r448-moone-timolin

nilhg

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.9850698,-6.8130649,3a,75y,213.8h,88.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swIXDOyuF8Jrz6V2sMZtmEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DwIXDOyuF8Jrz6V2sMZtmEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D1.4780906%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

loyatemu

giving side roads priority over cycle lanes on the main road is contrary to pretty much every design guide and best practice.

apart from that, it looks like there will still be space to cycle on the road?

cletus

Tried to make a submission, but it doesn't seem to want to publish.

I'll look again at it later.

Ceding priority when travelling straight is ridiculous

magicbastarder

i'm not that familiar with the area, so looked it up on google maps - am i right in thinking that moone and timolin are right next to each other?

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235749#Comment_122235749

Yeah, they're about a mile apart.

It looks like the idea is to trial cycling lanes connecting various towns and villages via the national road system.

Theres one from Nenagh to Limerick, although it's basically just a white line on the hard shoulder

Morris Garren

An excellent summary from the OP— in short this is a ludicrous proposal designed to solve a non-existent problem on a straight stretch of road that will inconvenience many cycling clubs/groups/individuals who use this road regularly with close to zero cycling incidents/accidents, that has close to zero support nor any apparent benefit locally. Submissions from sensible individuals would really help reverse this waste of resources. I note that this area is frequented by lots of cycling groups, sportives and the occasional cycling race/event; never seen/heard any issue with cyclists in this area at all, and I live in the area

nilhg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235749#Comment_122235749

Moone and Timolin were on the old N9 as it was, then they were bypassed by what I think was called the Bolton hill realignment, which was itself bypassed when the M9 opened.

The trial is to be done on the wide road which was the original bypass not the section of road linking the two villages.

magicbastarder

cheers- just that it looks like a decent road to cycle already!

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.9807965,-6.8150458,3a,75y,32.18h,66.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUKj9UZ1htfthJEspxjXlfw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUKj9UZ1htfthJEspxjXlfw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D105.29552%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

as long as you weren't there while some local gobdaw was burning out his tyres.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235948#Comment_122235948

They've picked this stretch as a test for a broader role out of a network of such cycle lanes across the country using the N-road system, rather than identifying Moone to Timolin specifically as requiring a cycle lane.

Done well, I think a national grid of interconnected towns via bike lane is a great idea.

nilhg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236351#Comment_122236351

I agree on the broad protected cycle network, I just wish this pilot was being done between Monasterevin and Kildare town, a stretch of road which our club has a policy of avoiding for club spins and is generally somewhere between unpleasant and dangerous to cycle on your own.

loyatemu

in short this is a ludicrous proposal designed to solve a non-existent problem

these sort of schemes aren't aimed at existing cyclists who are comfortable cycling on the road. They're designed to get more people cycling for transport. Even with a hard shoulder a lot of people wouldn't cycle on busy country road.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236372#Comment_122236372

I was thinking that too, an ideal road to implement it on, but that just might be a proximity bias 😀.

If this trial works well, it really could be a great network

magicbastarder

There'd need to be questions asked about the maintenance plan; having a cycle lane separated from the road by a grass strip on each side is pretty much double the maintenance of having a two way cycle lane on one side of the road. Especially given that there's a decent sized hedgerow on one side of the road. But a two way cycle lane probably complicates dealing with junctions.

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236380#Comment_122236380

So this is 'test' using a perfectly good section of road— it doesn't link any town or village to anything else. It just looks like a waste of resources to me; the likelihood that it will attract increased individuals 'cycling for transport' is probably close to zero based on local soundings

Large bottle small glass

Connected up towns with with cycle network is a great idea in theory in practice(although beyond dull and souless) it's going to look like

N25
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4GSnRdmD4ed3Fb1E7?g_st=ac

N22
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RgBSgQpLAEeQMqu66?g_st=ac

Safe as **** until you get to junctions where you really need protection.

To build a proper network is going to require breaking eggs, proper junction design to give cycle lanes priority and CPO where road width is restricted; like this hateful section below( but of which there are 100kms of similar National roads around the country

N24
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wAhc5uLZX59bzVUY6?g_st=ac

With the popularity of ebikes, our unrivalled local road network a left field option of picking alternative cycle friendly routes might be a better option. Komoot, rwgps etc make the route design simple and using a network of speed detection camera would make them safer as would high volume cycle use.

"Stick 'em the hard shoulder sur" isn't going to cut it

EAD

I'm on this route pretty much every time I cycle my bike and definitely every time I TT train. It is currently the safest stretch of road I use. The thought that I would have to cede priority three times where I would normally be cycling between 25-40+kmph just boils my blood.

Further along this road, closer to Castledermot, it narrows to having no hard shoulder. Now along here I have been passed so fast and so close that one time I got off my bike and had a wee cry for myself in the ditch before being able to get back up and cycle home on the perfectly wide and safe hard shoulder.

They are fixing a problem that does not exist and not actually tackling the real (and probably far more expensive) issue.

cletus

Like as has been mentioned above, they're not looking to solve any particular problem with this section of road. It's a pilot before they roll out a similar system nationwide.

The section was probably picked precisely because it's nice and straight and wide. An easy place to put in the cycle lane, and see what issues etc arise.

markpb

Comments about cycling groups are also missing the point. These projects are about opening cycling as a transport option to the general public, not about accommodating the weekend crowd.

magicbastarder

How will that work as an experiment though, if the people who wouldn't cycle unless of infrastructure like this, need to cycle to this infrastructure to enjoy it?

If it's the sort of road that only club or experienced leisure cyclists currently use, why would others choose to cycle to it?

markpb

I’m not overly familiar with the area but perhaps TII believe that some people living along that road might be open to the possibility of cycling to other places along the same road?

magicbastarder

They're less than a mile apart.

nilhg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122239141#Comment_122239141

There's one house, because the section of road the pilot is being tried on is a road which was originally built as a bypass of Moone and Timolin no planning permissions were given along it, the one house I think predates it and would have originally had access off the old road. The only thing any local might cycle to is Moone celtic football pitch.

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122239103#Comment_122239103

And as mentioned already--- who exactly are these members of the 'general public' who are going to take a bicycle to this rural location to consider their 'transport options?' - where would they be going? That language sounds like a press release from a government department or Green Party memo. How about considering those who actually live and cycle in the area,the local needs/considerations re: transport before rolling out this mess

patrickc

I use this as a cyclist very often, the road was resurfaced, I.E chippings last year and they left it worse than it was, after a bridge on it there's a bump heading northbound that's lethal!