Battery Energy Storage Systems

lukin

There is a renewable energy company proposing to create a wind farm near where I live. I don't have a problem with that, it will be well out of earshot. However there is also a proposal to create a BESS (Battery Energy Storage System) nearby. I don't know much about these systems but I would like to find out more because there is a meeting coming up about it in our village and I am going to attend. I think a lot of people are opposed to it.

The company sent out a flyer to us about the wind farm ages ago but there was no mention of the BESS on it. I must stress I am not a "nimby" but if there are risks or dangers in these systems I would like to know. I want to get a bit of knowledge before the meeting.

Thanks

Water John

Probably relatively small, size wise, a couple of containers. Even large ones only require a few acres. That part might never actually be built, but they may be shoehorning it into the one planning.

lukin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220490#Comment_122220490

Thanks for the reply. The proposal is for 18 turbines with a 110kV 4-bay substation and a Grid Connection.

Water John

That's a big project, the BESS could be fairly large in MW terms but have a small footprint.

lukin

I sent an email and got a reply. The BESS is not part of the planning application, just the wind farm and sub-station.

lukin

Just attended a meeting tonight organised by an action group set up to oppose the wind farm and BESS.

It seems clear to me that there is no environmental benefit to wind farms and the sole purpose of this one is to supply a BESS because the National Grid is maxed out and hasn't the room for any more electricity that is generated by wind farms or other sources.

So the solution is to store it in batteries instead. I think that is correct but I was too shy to ask that in the meeting 🙂.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252718#Comment_122252718

Can you elaborate on your "there is no environmental benefit to wind farms" statement?

conor_mc

Sarcastic interpretation of the meeting discussion…. I hope!!!!

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252718#Comment_122252718

The meeting was organised by people opposed to the development and so the stage was set to get more to rally against the wind farm. Of course there are environmental benefits to windfarms. Some people would try convince you that diesel is clean. Do your own research and keep the mind open without going all tinfoil hat and blocking roads.

bullit_dodger

Ahh lads everyone knows windmills are not the future. Hell even Trump agrees with me and "he knows windmills very much" - sounds like something Borat would say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec9P3C1OXqE

lukin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252808#Comment_122252808

OK it was stated at the meeting last night that Ireland don't get any carbon credits for energy generated by wind turbines that are built by private energy companies. The credits go to the country the company is based in.

Is that correct?

conor_mc

As far as I understand, this is possible but cuts both ways. Irish "100% green electricity" suppliers, for example, can and do purchase credits for green energy generated elsewhere in Europe, as far as I understand it. It's a Europe-wide carbon credit system, not a national one.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253152#Comment_122253152

I dare say the credits go to the company that own the wind farm, no country actually gets them.

But that's just a side hustle on the whole thing.

Would you personally have any objection to having a wind farm locally?

Ireland has a lot of potential wind energy, and every kWh produced from wind, is a kWh that we don't have to import in the form of gas/oil/coal.

Battery systems make a lot of sense with wind farms, and an extra revenue stream to smooth out the variances in wind power, the grid connection is already there and you'd prob not even see the battery system,

Problem with the action groups for no wind farm etc they don't have to back up any of their statements. The "Ireland doesn't get the carbon credits" and "no environmental benefit"

lukin

What I meant when I said that "there is no environmental benefit to wind farms" is "Ireland doesn’t get any environmental credit as a result of wind farms being built by private companies".

Wind farms reduce carbon emissions, and I am in favour of that, absolutely 100 percent but it appears it doesn't reduce the fines that Ireland are paying because we don't get the credit for it, the company that buil them did.

Before I went to the meeting last night I thought that was not the case (Ireland does get the carbon credit) but it was stated at the meeting last night that we do not.

I'd like to get a definitive answer on that.

At present the government has to buy carbon credits in order to comply with its international environmental targets (so we don't get fined by the EU). So it seems a bit daft if we are letting private companies build all these wind farms but it's not reducing the fines.

I think the real objective of some wind farms is to feed these battery systems that are required to store electricity that the national grid cannot accommodate or else are required if there is an outage and the ESB need them to fix it quickly.

On the wider subject of would I personally have an objection to a wind farm locally; Because of the size of them yes, I would actually. It's ridiculous to have something that size in a field surrounded by other farms and houses.

They could be up to 200 metres in height. That means the radius of the noise and light flicker will be massive.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253659#Comment_122253659

the only way "Ireland" would get the carbon credits in my view was if the government was to fund the turbines themselves. If ESBN put them up, ESBN would still have to be paid for them, Even though they are owned by "ireland" they are a separate company. I am just guessing, but thats what makes obvious sense to me, Its part of the incentive for private companies to build wind farms.

Of course the wind farms are being built to feed the battery stations. That makes total sense. Take power in when there is an excess and send it out when there is a need for it. Thats what is needed to use less imported energy.

Currently when there is an excess, the wind is curtailed, and not generated. and then when there is a need, they just spin up the gas plants more.

As for the turbines themselves, how close are they actually going to be?

unless you are really close, they arent noisy, at 500m they are quieter than a refrigerator:
https://orsted.ie/renewable-energy-solutions/onshore-wind/onshore-wind-facts/are-onshore-wind-turbines-noisy#:~:text=Turbine%20noise%20explained&text=Well%2Ddesigned%20wind%20turbines%20are,500%20metres%20from%20a%20turbine. (and decibels are logarithmic, so every 10 decibels is twice as loud)

Need to be aware of straw-manning arguments, eg "they could be 200m high". Its in the planning, How big are they?

loyatemu

carbon trading is nothing more than a mechanism of encouraging/discouraging actions. It has no impact on whether a particular project has "environmental benefits".

If at a particularly time we're generating all our energy from renewables, that surely has benefits vs burning stuff and pumping CO2 into the sky (though obviously you have to look at the life-cycle emissions and wider environmental impact of a particular energy source too).

lukin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254043#Comment_122254043

Yeah I read that the noise can only be heard if you are within 500 metres as well. But that does that apply right across the board to every wind turbine no matter what the size?

Does a turbine 100 metres high make the same amount of noise as one that is 200 metres high? Can they both not be heard from outside 500 metres?

The pre-planning permission application states there are 18 turbines going in (for a start). What if 6 more are added in a year’s time? Will the noise still not be heard outside 500 metres?

We haven't been told what height they will be. There is a met mast in place for the last 6 months in the location where the turbines are supposed to be located and it is 80 metres high, if that is any guide.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254212#Comment_122254212

Imagine for a moment a circular plot of land with a circumference of 10 kilometres. That's an area close to 8 Square kilometers. If you take a wind turbine with a height of 200m and a propeller span of 100m, you could theoretically set up to 80 turbines along the circumference line. If it is true that you cannot hear the turbines from a distance of 500m or more from the circumference line, then it is also true that you would not hear any turbines within that circular plot, no matter how many turbines you place on, or within the circumference border.

Sound doesn't travel a greater distance just by adding more sources at the same dB level. So, really it wouldn't matter if they put 80 turbines on the borders of the land and then added another 80 inside the border. The sound would travel no further and be no louder than a single turbine when at the same distance to the nearest source. This is why at a concert you won't see sound speakers on a pole all facing the exact same direction. They fan the speakers to cover the greatest area, as it would make no difference having 2 speakers stacked on top of eachother facing the exact same direction and playing the same source sound. That's what my understanding was at my sound engineering module. That was a bit long winded, but hopefully it makes sense.