Apple to small claims

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722593#Comment_122722593

A statement can be clear, concise and wrong. A statement on a website that the process is "designed to handle consumer or business claims inexpensively without involving a solicitor" has to be set against District Court Rules which, on the face of them, don't give company directors or shareholders any standing to represent the company in court proceedings. And, when these two sources conflict, the District Court Rules are law; they prevail over website text written by God knows who.

Strictly speaking, I suppose, the website text isn't wrong. The procedure is designed to handle claims without involving a solicitor; it's just not as well-designed for that purpose as it could be. It modifies various District Court Rules in ways that are intended to make it easier to proceed without a solicitor, but it fails to modify the rules dealing with rights of audience, which do need to be modified if a limited company is to proceed without a solicitor.

spaceHopper

Looking forward to hearing the out come. Don't forget to seek an order for costs as it was Apple who forced you to get a solicitor for the small claims court.

A350-900

It is very hard to get costs in small claims.

Firblog

Yeah I don't think costs can be awarded in the SCC, could be wrong though 😏

Has a similar issue with Lenovo regarding a faulty tablet, cheap enough at 150 euro but the board failed after months 13, literally 1 month after warranty.

They naturally as expected refused, but I kept on at them quoting Irish and EU consumer law.

Eventually they gave up and repaired the item for free.

Im amazed apple are prepared to fight this in the courts!

Either way the OP should stand his ground like he is doing, the consumer law is there for a reason and even though he purchased as a business surely that business is still a consumer and should be afforded consumer protection.

Anyhow, good luck to the OP.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122750951#Comment_122750951

Consumer Rights Act 2022:

“consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession

Consumer rights do not apply to B2B transactions

galwayguy85

Late to the party here, but OP should’ve trotted out the words “ CS code” or “ let me speak to a Tier 2 advisor” on his first phone call to Apple. Customer satisfaction levels is what those guys live buy. On the pig’s back if you get to deal with somebody in the Cork call centre. You odds of a victory are a little lower if you up with a Brit (or an Indian) in their outsourced call centres.

Internal codes are what got me over the line when my Mac’s graphic card gave up. Sanjeev (let’s call him) was trying to sidestep EU consumer law as the Mac was bought in Ireland but I’d settled down in another EU country in the meantime.

suvigirl

OP, did your company buy the iPad, and shouldn't your company be the one paying for solicitors?

Pauliedragon

OP owns the company.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122768682#Comment_122768682

YesYes, but the company is a separate entity to him.

FGR

Am looking forward to the outcome of this myself.

Keep fighting the good fight OP. B2B makes it difficult - but hopefully there will be a positive outcome.

Firblog

Yes the company is the entity that should be paying for a solicitor, but that would be more than the cost of any award the Judge could make. While I'm stubborn enough to take apple to court and take a day or two of work, I'm not willing to shell out a couple of grand for the pleasure of winning 600 euro

guil

Guessing a solicitor gave you an estimate of the cost?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122779059#Comment_122779059

Did they ever lol

Ted222

Apple has already spent more on their own legal defence than it would have cost them to replace the iPad. They’re defending this on a point of principle lest it give rise to a flood of related complaints.

They’re willing to go whatever distance it takes. Don’t waste your money.

guil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122781295#Comment_122781295

Care to share?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122783226#Comment_122783226

2k

20/20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122784182#Comment_122784182

2K But you will be able to write this off as an expense ?

Firblog

That's really immaterial, it's a cost that brings no benefit, it would make no sense to pay that to maybe win €600; it would be an idiotic thing to do.

I'd have no issue paying 2-300, to give it a shot, with a potential up side.

20/20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122784506#Comment_122784506

That's really immaterial ???

My question is will this come from your pre-tax profits ? Or your own pocket ?

Firblog

Yes it's really immaterial.

Its not from my own pocket.

Have you ever heard of a cost benefit analysis?

Cost = €2000

Benefit = perhaps be awarded €600, which would be a loss of €1400

Analysis is that there is no benefit to pay a solicitor 2K to fight the case.

20/20

Thanks for the maths lesson.

But you have said Apple will fix the issue for a price as ipad is out of warranty. You bought a new ipad and still want Apple to fix the old one . You have all ready wasted time going to court and visiting a solicitor and still going back to court . To quote your good self Have you ever heard of a cost benefit analysis?

raxy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122784668#Comment_122784668

He doesn't want apple to fix the old ipad anymore. Initially maybe but now he wants a refund. In principle I agree with him & Apple should have just fixed it to begin with but they don't trade on customer service. What I thought would happen was apple would argue that it was a minor issue & therefore not significant enough to be considered defective & at most in court agree to repair the ipad & not refund anything.

It's not up to you to decide he wasted his time, it's his time & he was happy to use it. He put a bit of effort in at minimal cost before deciding it's a lost cause. He's not stupid, stubborn maybe, he's not going to spend 2k to recoup 600. Most companies when faced with court would probably give in rather than go to court.

Firblog

Well I went back to to Cork for round 2 of my small claim..

I convinced the Judge that the company should not be required to engage a solicitor for a small claims case and so was able to make the claim

And then got my arse handed to me by Apple's barrister :)

There was no mention or issue with consumer vs business purchase

Where I failed was convincing the Judge that my "reasonable expectation" outweighed consumer law whereby

If the fault appears after 12 months the consumer must prove the fault lay with the product.

From Consumer Association of Ireland. Deliveries and returns - Consumers’ Association of Ireland

"The trader remains liable for any faults that appear with a product up to two years after purchase. However, if the fault develops after the initial six-month period (now 12 months), the consumer may have to prove that the fault was not caused by their own misuse or mistreatment of the product."

Even though I showed the Judge that the Ipad was in absolutely pristine condition, I couldn't prove that it hadn't been misused - so case dismissed.

Btw Apple seem to bring a barrister to SCC for every claim, there was another apple case mentioned but adjourned and the same barrister was to appear for that one.

drunkmonkey

Hate to say I told you so.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122904445#Comment_122904445

Nah you don't

😉

A350-900

At least you cost Apple money in briefing the barrister.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122905009#Comment_122905009

Yeah, like myself she had to hang about all day as we were the last case to be heard.

20/20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122905192#Comment_122905192

Difference been she gets paid for the day, and you have lost another days pay. To qoute your earlier comment [

Have you ever heard of a cost benefit analysis? ] You got what you deserved, but at least you now have a very long story to bore people with over the Christmas.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122906615#Comment_122906615

Nope, sorry to disappoint, I arranged to take my day off on that day, so no day's pay lost.

I'd say you're an incredible bore yourself going by the little interactions we've had, you probably regale everyone you know with the witty and inciteful posts you make on boards 😉