Independent Golfer Ireland

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329302#Comment_122329302

From the limited amount of chatter I've heard so far, some (or many) clubs will likely choose to restrict independent golfers somewhat. Eg a gui club visitor will have preferential treatment.

What this means I think it's too early to say. There may be ring-fenced tee times, separate prize categories in opens etc. Scratch cups would probably block outright block igolfers or have stricter criteria - eg fully developed whs index and minimum number of comps in past year. That criteria is already in most clubs already.

However clubs won't disappear when independent golf starts. Membership is a different proposition.

An igolfer has to pay green fees to play and can only play open comps (if allowed by the hosting club/org).

Membership is unlimited golf, practice facilities, quick 6 holes, comps throughout the year, interclub teams.

If a small rural club thinks they will be destroyed I'd strongly question the logic. Eg assuming a local igolfer plays €60 per year sub to Golf Ireland and 12 green fees/opens at €40 a pop. They're sitting on a total outlay of €540 in a year. That can cover membership in plenty of courses for unlimited golf plus the other benefits.

I'll cherry pick here from google for current examples and exclude distance memberships for obvious reasons:

• Castlegregory ~€500 full member, €350 introductory member.
• Blessington Lakes ~€599 full member.
• Moate €650 full member.
• South Meath €500 full member
• Birr - €478 year 1, €628 year 2.
• Portlaoise €425 full member.
• The Heath €500 year 1 or €1100 for 2 years.
• Tullamore €468 introductory membership.
• Bearna €600 year 1 full, decreases for year 2.

Any regular igolfer obviously sees the value in joining a local club like above. The person who plays 3-5 times a year is not going to join a club, they weren't in 2024 or in the past. However they may do in future. Likewise for a society golfer. Hopefully the new scheme incentivises these people to take up a membership.

For people who want to throw in their membership because they don't use it. I believe they have to wait 1-2 years before they can join igolf. If someone falls into this bracket I think they were probably "dead money" to clubs anyway. There isn't a collection of public courses with open time sheets to play when you like. So the clubs will still get green fees and have opportunity to tap into potential new members.

There's an opportunity here for golf clubs to capture the igolfer's business and set them up for membership. It has to be done in the right way:

1. Balance restrictions on comps to protect club golfers from banditry. Don't dangle big prizes for bandits.
2. Have some igolfer schemes/bundles (5x green fees, order of merit, play x times get igolfer intro member special year 1, green fees + pro lesson bundle).
3. Expand membership options like pay to play, 5 days, off peak etc. Give more choice.
4. Make the igolfers feel welcome. If it becomes too much of "us vs them" sentiment, who'd want to join that club?
5. Societies - most clubs already have recurring visits and relationships. Lots of these people here will take up the scheme so they have a handicap to track. Often they play 2-3 societies and a common handicap would be welcomed. Added bonus of scores going to WHS for visibility.

Big clubs are not going to lose loads of members, some even have waiting lists. High end ones are a real luxury and that proposition won't change. I think it may make lots of clubs reconsider joining fees however. The only outlier is the small number clubs that relied solely on cheap distance or pay to play memberships to survive. They may have to reviewer their operating model or seek some sort of grant/scheme from Golf Ireland.

In the absence of public courses and no guarantee for to igolfers on tee sheet availability, I don't believe there's a threat to the vast majority of clubs.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330245#Comment_122330245

Still - I think the system absolutely suits someone like me tbh. They've definitely done enough analysis to show that it's a good system once they market it correctly to the right people. Golf Clubs themselves are absolutely awful at Marketing and while some will see no negative hit, some other clubs will, and will start scrambling in a panic then

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330416#Comment_122330416

It's a positive step, I agree. Quite clear that the communication with clubs hasn't been great given the fear being expressed.

Tbf golf is very traditional and stuck in its ways so change is always difficult.

bobster453

I know the official figures from England Golf look very positive but wonder on breakdown do they favour city clubs vs country clubs or one region vs the other.

Be interesting to see 2 or 3 years on how clubs in different regions view it now.

Agree clubs offering cheap distance membership may be in trouble..one synonymous with this appears to be rebranding itself more as an adventure destination for kids rather than a golf club anymore..most of their social media posts are pushing this.

REFLINE1

Came across this article at the weekend.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/ive-just-discovered-ive-been-inadvertently-cheating-for-years-am-i-the-problem-or-do-golfs-handicap-rules-need-to-change

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

I often play with friends who don’t have official handicaps or aren’t golf club members. In those instances, I send off my score for attestation to someone who hasn’t witnessed my round but has the MyEG app. 

This article is fairly stupid IMO, but this paragraph in particular made me laugh.

There is no way this guy ever thought this was ok to do. What would be the point in attesting a round that you didn't witness?

An attestation system where everyone and anyone could just attest would be entirely pointless too. When a club member or an iGolf member attests, at the very least you know that this attestation is tied back to a known individual. That individual can then be queried if there are discrepancies, and the individual is less likely to take liberties with attestation when their own account is linked to it.

If anyone could just attest there is nothing stopping anyone starting a round with Joe Bloggs as the attester, but Mr Bloggs doesn't actually exist and is merely the players own alter-ego signing off on their own score.

REFLINE1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355863#Comment_122355863

yeh he comes across pretty idiotic tbh. From what i hear this type of thing is pretty prevalent in the US as well.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356204#Comment_122356204

Golf in the US is a different beast entirely. They cheat and they don't even hide it. The rules of the sport are more like guidelines over there.

Breakfast balls, mulligans, gallery balls, they've a rule to get themselves a free drop in almost any scenario.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

brutal and illogical attitude in that article

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356411#Comment_122356411

I've read about some club competitions there where you can buy Mulligans before you start. Imagine having 5 or 6 shots you could replay per round!

Also they don't seem to play provisional balls like we do. Just drop where you think ball was lost and play on. Huge difference between hitting your 3rd off the tee or 250 yards down the hole where you roughly think it went.

Also allowing generous gimmie's in rounds even stroke play is pretty mad

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357457#Comment_122357457

Yes and then after their 5 mulligans and 3 free gallery drops they'll be telling you how they broke 80.

I dunno if any of you read r/Golf on reddit but it's hilarious reading some of their questions, their golf culture is just totally different.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

Regardless of whether he's with iGolf or GE, the app has the same principle. Someone needs to attest/mark the score AND have witnessed the round.

You could systemize it so that BRS/Clubv1 and other software providers sync the tee time details into the GE central database so it can only be attested by those on the slot. Just waiting on someone to come in and derail the argument citing data protection.

slave1

Back to topic please folks

downthemiddle

Golf Ireland have announced a three year step down period from club membership before you can join the Independent Golfer scheme.

alxmorgan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458320#Comment_122458320

Where did you see this ?

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458458#Comment_122458458

Stand-down period increase to 3 years

The initial proposed 12-month period has been reviewed by the Golf Ireland Boardand increased to 3 years.As a result, the stand down period in Ireland will be three times longer than any othergoverning body has implemented globally and means a golfer leaving a club wouldnot be permitted to obtain a handicap through the scheme for at least three years.This extension has been put in place based on feedback given by clubs and to provideadditional reassurance to those that were concerned about losing existing members.

https://static.clubhouse.golfireland.ie/clubs/1000/uploads/files/play_golf/2024%20ig%20august%20update.pdf

bobster453

That will keep a lot of clubs happy..or happier maybe.

coillcam

Fair play to whoever is involved, they really rolled that back and listened to club concerns. It will protect existing membership numbers 100%. Clubs relying on distance membership won't be burned badly at the beginning but in time it'll catch up.

Makes the choice for indo golfers a little tougher when considering membership. If they join a club it's then 4 years before they can go back to indo golfing. The counter argument is that it means only those serious about membership will want to join. Any indo golfer the fence and willing to punt on membership won't take the risk.

Perhaps they'll put an exception in that if someone was previously an indo golfer for x period they'll give them a pass on trying membership for a year followed by no stand down or a shorter stand down. This thing will evolve and change over next few years like whs.

Another interesting point on the release that went out is that some money retained from the indo scheme will be ring fenced and put back into club supports/development. Remains to be seen what that looks like.

alxmorgan

As someone who was a member for many years and stepped away due to kids and time pressure this is good news. I don't know if I can justify membership yet so a year or two to dip back in and see how it goes is ideal for me.

elacsap

Has there been any update when this will come into play?

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459277#Comment_122459277

Instead of encouraging people to become members it will put them off

Short sighted really

alxmorgan

No more news on this. You'd think if it was launching in October there'd be some noise

bobster453

I particularly like the bit about bouncers wearing v neck jumpers😅

Tells it like it will be tho in a few short years.

Even with a 3 year hiatus for current members.

https://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2024/04/golf-ireland-independant-golfer-scheme.html

alxmorgan

I don't know. 3 years is a long time to lose something you've been used to.
No opens in that time. No handicap. No comps effectively
Guess we'll see

slave1

GI have effectively brought it in because they had to and killed it off at the same time

alxmorgan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562797#Comment_122562797

Had to in what way ?
And killed it off due to 3 year wait ?

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563002#Comment_122563002

R&A directed..but didnt..the four home Golf Unions to implement it.

Golf Ireland want to implement it based on figures from England but golf here is different.

For a small population we have a lot of golf clubs who fear members will simply leave to get a handicap for about 50 yoyo.

England initially had a year before you could be independent after leaving a club..its now a month.

Fears that the same would happen here led to friction between clubs and GI.

Thence the 3 year rule.

Effectively if nobody ever played golf as a member of a club or have been without a club for more than 3 years then work away cos you arent hurting anyone.

So yea..effectively killed off.

slave1

..and aren't GI leaving it up to individual clubs to "allow" Independent Golfers play in Opens

alxmorgan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563897#Comment_122563897

You'd imagine clubs with large memberships and more waiting to join would be happy to have the income.

Smaller clubs maybe not so much

CFG92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458320#Comment_122458320

It's hard to see how they are going to enforce a 3 year rule or any time period for that matter. As it stands, anyone who joins a new club that has an existing handicap record in another club can simply not declare this info, & start again with a blank handicap record. Obviously it's wrong to do that, but there are no safeguard measures in place to prevent it. How will the Independent Golfer scheme be in any way different?